So was there, or was there not a Heroes and Villians Part 2?

[Dunderhead]

I think the cannibalized Bicycle Rider version from Worms was dropped when he recorded the "new" Bicycle Rider/eventual Heroes chorus in a minor key in February.  That would have followed Prelude to Fade in Part 2 IMO, then the new Fade.

I don't think we can rule out that just because Brian recorded a new version of the OMP and now cantina version fade that the previous version was out of Part 1.  The two versions are different, with live Carl vocals on the second and a slightly different arrangement.  The return of the first fade, with some differences, might have functioned as a "chorus" or reference back to Part 1, since there still isn't a chorus in the song, to give it a cyclic structure.  I think it was definitely out of OMP now.  What would he have replaced it with?  Maybe . . . IWBA/FN?  Fits pretty well after the descending strings of YAMS.  Would've made OMP/YAMS/IWBA/FN some revolutionary track!

I really like this idea. I've put together a Americana suite of Old Master Painter/My Only Sunshine/I Wanna Be Around/With Me Tonight for the A-Side of the album. The B-Side has a similar suite, The Elements, in which I use Workshop as Earth. So I've sort of combined two different theories from this thread. Some great discussion going on.

I do have some questions though. Only partially related.
"Jazz" was recorded the same day as I'm In Great Shape, Friday Night, and I Wanna Be Around. Could this have been for use in anything? I've never actually heard this track, what does it appear on? I've heard some people say it was just the musicians warming up, but I'm still curious about it.

When was Mama Says recorded? During sessions for Vegetables? I've read that for a long time people thought that Mama Says/Do a Lot was I'm in Great Shape, was it always included in fan mixes of Vegetables? What did people do with it before the 2004 Smile?

[grillo]

I've read that for a long time people thought that Mama Says/Do a Lot was I'm in Great Shape, was it always included in fan mixes of Vegetables? What did people do with it before the 2004 Smile?

It's true that on the first few, or at least the vigotone, Smile boots mama says was considered IIGS. Before I heard that version of vega-tables with it incorporated I never thought I'd hear IIGS. How psyched was I? Well, not half as psyched as when that demo of H&V surfaced and we got to hear the real IIGS, followed soon after by the actual backing track. I'm not sure there were fan mixes of vegatables back then since you would've had to do it on a cassette and that would be a pain in the ass, big time!

[buddhahat]

I've read that for a long time people thought that Mama Says/Do a Lot was I'm in Great Shape, was it always included in fan mixes of Vegetables? What did people do with it before the 2004 Smile?

It's true that on the first few, or at least the vigotone, Smile boots mama says was considered IIGS. Before I heard that version of vega-tables with it incorporated I never thought I'd hear IIGS. How psyched was I? Well, not half as psyched as when that demo of H&V surfaced and we got to hear the real IIGS, followed soon after by the actual backing track. I'm not sure there were fan mixes of vegatables back then since you would've had to do it on a cassette and that would be a pain in the ass, big time!

Didn't Do A Lot start out as part of heroes, then migrate to Vegetables? Or going along with Cam's theory, perhaps Do A Lot could have appeared as part of the heroes single as a sampler for the main track of vegetables on the album. I have heard it argued that it could belong with IIGS - maybe as part of a barnyard suite, along with Barnyard. So you start with breakfast, then brushing your teeth, then out to feed the animals!

Another idea that occurred to me, was that maybe the piano only version of the bicycle rider theme could have been a revised tag to part 1 of Heroes. Not sure if the recording dates might back this up? So part 1 would end with piano BR, then part 2 would start with Heroes intro, followed by a more developed version of the BR theme. The piano only BR is certainly a good candidate for a tag to Pt 1 as Brian had already planned to use a piano piece at the end of pt1.

[buddhahat]

Something else that's occurred to me.

Going with the theory that prelude to fade was positioned at the end of Pt 1, just before a fade. There is a whistles & bells version of prelude and I have often wondered what that was about. It makes complete sense if we consider the bells & whistles laden Heroes intro as a start to pt 2 then these two sections are practically next to each other.

This whistles/bells prelude to fade then signals a change in tone in H&V to something disastrous or more sinister. If we follow this prelude with the piano only BR theme as a fade, this sustains the change in tone. Pt 2 then starts with Heroes intro which is undeniably a sinister section (just listen to the organ led earlier versions of it), and is perhaps followed by another minor key BR section (the one that sounds like a train). You then have a large section of the pt 1/pt 2 single where the tone has been altered to something dark and villainous. Perhaps Gee signals another shift to a lighter mode for the last part of pt 2. This is followed by the much happier sounding heroes variations, which work well because this "heroes & villains" motif has already been established, but in the minor key with the BR theme.

I definitely think a pt 1/pt H&V would have had a narrative feel, and perhaps a shift to a darker mood, sustained over several sections, followed by a redemptive uplifting portion. The idea of good & evil, heroes & villains, is then audibly represented within the structure of the song.

[Dunderhead]

So how would the song have fit into the rest of the album? Would the whole 6 minute shebang start right after Prayer? Also how does Do You Like Worms fit in? Worms is a really weird song, on a lot of bootlegs it's listed as Heroes and Villains II, and considering Brian only held sessions for the song once it's place within Smile has always seemed odd to me. The January work on Heroes has always led me to believe that Brian was reconsidering Worms. He split Barnyard off for a possible Barnyard Suite (that he never did anymore work on), broke up Old Master Painter, and took out the Bicycle Rider from Worms. Really I think Do You Like Worms was on the chopping block.
What time frame was the 2 part Heroes in? If it was before December '66 the first part would have had I'm In Great Shape and Barnyard

[The Song Of The Grange]

So how would the song have fit into the rest of the album? Would the whole 6 minute shebang start right after Prayer? Also how does Do You Like Worms fit in? Worms is a really weird song, on a lot of bootlegs it's listed as Heroes and Villains II, and considering Brian only held sessions for the song once it's place within Smile has always seemed odd to me. The January work on Heroes has always led me to believe that Brian was reconsidering Worms. He split Barnyard off for a possible Barnyard Suite (that he never did anymore work on), broke up Old Master Painter, and took out the Bicycle Rider from Worms. Really I think Do You Like Worms was on the chopping block.
What time frame was the 2 part Heroes in? If it was before December '66 the first part would have had I'm In Great Shape and Barnyard

Do You Like Worms? had more than one session. 10/18/66 and 12/21/66. By 1/5/67 Bicycle Rider was sucked into H&V. But you have a point.  There weren't very many Worms sessions (just as many sessions as there was for Look/I Ran, which I consider to have a shaky claim to having ended up on the LP). The Worms title was on the handwritten list, and thus on the back cover slick.  But we have established that the back cover slick was only a demo, and was never printed in mass production.  The song titles could have changed in the final back cover slick.  So Worms very well could have been cut.

[BJL]

Also, it's possible that when Brian stole bicycle rider for heroes and villians, he also imagined other parts relocating: The Hawaiian chants could have become part of the elements (water) or been mixed with some early version of little pad or even with me tonight.  This would leave only the verse and rock, rock, roll parts actually scrapped. 

That said, from a narrative point of view, Worms seems like a really key smile track to me, in terms of making an americana album.

[Cam Mott]

In my theory, nothing was removed from the album tracks, leaving a hole in the album track, to create a section of H&V. Some part of an album track was sampled and altered and added to H&V Part 2 [57045] but the sampled section remained in its original track serving its original purpose in the album track.

For instance, The BR chorus from DYLW was sampled but the orchestration is done different and H&V lyrics are substituted for DYLW's chorus BR lyrics but imo opinion the BR chorus remained in its original DYLW form with its BR lyrics in DYLW. Elements Part 1 was sampled, re-orchestrated as an intro of H&V Part 2 [57045] but the original track  remained as Elements Part 1. The OMP fade was tried out in H&V Part 1 [57020] and later sampled with new orchestration and vocals for H&V Part 2 [57045] but nothing says it ceased to still be the OMP fade in its original form. It could have been the OMP fade and the H&V Part 1 [57020] fade and the reorchestrated fade to H&V Part 2 [57045] but I just don't feel it. My vote is for the fade remained in OMP, because there is no reason to think otherwise, and the reorchestrated section was the fade to H&V Part 2 [57045], because it is one of the latest recorded sections for H&V. Subject to change according to what is known about what was actually recorded when. 

All pure conjecture based on the scant evidence available but imo making much better sense of the scant evidence. If only we knew a little more about what was recorded for what under the title H&V, especially the sessions after the cantina mix.

OK, I'll PM Alan and see if he has time or inclination to play. He probably has nothing better to do than to nerd it out with the rest of us brothers in nerd.

[Bicyclerider]

Something else that's occurred to me.

Going with the theory that prelude to fade was positioned at the end of Pt 1, just before a fade. There is a whistles & bells version of prelude and I have often wondered what that was about. It makes complete sense if we consider the bells & whistles laden Heroes intro as a start to pt 2 then these two sections are practically next to each other.

This whistles/bells prelude to fade then signals a change in tone in H&V to something disastrous or more sinister.

what whistles and bells prelude are you referring to?  The only prelude to fade recorded was the "Western" sounding, clip clop percussion piece ending with the French horn.  The "intro to H & V" is a whistles and bells, and there is a bells only (chime) version of intro, and then there's the whistles/bells "Bag of Tricks."

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Something else that's occurred to me.

Going with the theory that prelude to fade was positioned at the end of Pt 1, just before a fade. There is a whistles & bells version of prelude and I have often wondered what that was about. It makes complete sense if we consider the bells & whistles laden Heroes intro as a start to pt 2 then these two sections are practically next to each other.

This whistles/bells prelude to fade then signals a change in tone in H&V to something disastrous or more sinister.

what whistles and bells prelude are you referring to?  The only prelude to fade recorded was the "Western" sounding, clip clop percussion piece ending with the French horn.  The "intro to H & V" is a whistles and bells, and there is a bells only (chime) version of intro, and then there's the whistles/bells "Bag of Tricks."

Has the chime one been booted? Just for, er....reference.

[The Song Of The Grange]

what whistles and bells prelude are you referring to?  The only prelude to fade recorded was the "Western" sounding, clip clop percussion piece ending with the French horn.  The "intro to H & V" is a whistles and bells, and there is a bells only (chime) version of intro, and then there's the whistles/bells "Bag of Tricks."

There is a take of prelude to fade that has a whistle and bell percussion, not as pronounced as Intro to H&V, but they are there.  This version also has a string slide at the end much like the end of You Are My Sunshine. The string slide comes right after the french horn line. I have heard it is on a collection called Heroes and Villains Vol. 1, but I wouldn't know about that stuff.

[Bicyclerider]

what whistles and bells prelude are you referring to?  The only prelude to fade recorded was the "Western" sounding, clip clop percussion piece ending with the French horn.  The "intro to H & V" is a whistles and bells, and there is a bells only (chime) version of intro, and then there's the whistles/bells "Bag of Tricks."

Has the chime one been booted? Just for, er....reference.

I believe it's on Secret Smile.

As for this bells/whiistles Prelude - what boot is this on?  This is new to me.  Or if it's only been privately circulated, can you PM me?

thanks.

[Alan Boyd]

For what it's worth, there is one tape box with a little note on it that says "Heroes and Villains Side Two."  That would be the rendition of the theme described on that box as "HEROES BRIDGE WITH SPOOKY LOW END STRINGS AND PERCUSSION."  This turned out to be the variation on the theme that was later used as the backing track for the chorus of the single version (but with the "spooky low end strings" mixed out in favor of droning low notes from what I can only assume is Brian's Baldwin organ).  I can't say for sure, however, when that "Side Two" note was written on the box, so....

As far as "Heroes and Villains" PART Two is concerned, the tape box containing the "Bicycle Rider" theme with Brian's lead vocal, is labeled "HEROES PART TWO."  Judging from some fragmentary mix outtakes for the song's opening verses - which seem to go into a snippet of that harpsichord-based "Bicycle Rider" theme - I'm guessing that "Part Two" in that case refers to sections within an alternate complete edit of the song, rather than an actual separate side two.  Perhaps an early version of the song may have had that "Bicycle Rider" section as a chorus in the same way the single version had a variation of that theme as its chorus.  Perhaps not...  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

The various vocal treatments that have long been regarded as the foundation for a Side Two of HEROES.... well.... they also have a "PART TWO" note on the tape box, as well as audio slates on the tape itself.  But that may just be referring to the order in which they were recording sections that day (2/20/67).  On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be a PART ONE from that particular session.  In this case, "Part Two" refers to the "Gee" vocal leading into a tack piano/ vocal variation ("Ahh ooom diddy wadda, heroes and villains")  "Part Three" on this tape is the next variation of the vocal thing ("heroes, the heroes, the heroes and a villains") leading into a suspenseful piano chord that leads to the growling Swedish Frog" stuff.... then another variation, "Part Four" or "Version Four" refers to the acapella "Dit Dit Dit Heroes and Villains" with the low doom-doom-doom vocals on the bottom....   The various sections appear on the 8 track tape in the same order as they were later presented on CD with the slates and false starts cleaned up and taken out.

*whew*

I would tend to be careful about assuming how sections like this were intended to be put together, especially having found an original edited track mix for CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN that's assembled very differently than the bootlegs had been for so many years.  The old versions had simply put the sections together in the same order as found on the original multitrack session tape.

FYI - That piece they call "Barnshine" or "False Barnyard" was originally recorded as part two of SUNSHINE, and there is a mono rough mix in the vaults with that section coming up right after the OLD MASTER PAINTER/SUNSHINE mixdown with Dennis' lead.  It has that bit of a SUNSHINE vocal from Brian (not Mike) buried way deep in there.  This appears to be a rough mix made in 1968 at Wally Heider while they were working out what was going to be on "Stack O Tracks."  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

That coda was not added to the alternate version of that first appeared on the SMILEY SMILE/WILD HONEY two-fer.  That mix was complete in a tape box labeled "Heros [sic] and Villains as of 2/10/67 master" Protection Copy.  I can't be certain that is a copy of the missing master mix dated 1/31/67, or a protection copy of another assembly/mixdown made after that.  The notes are not definitive.

And yes, that "Barnshine" bit was re-recorded on 2/28 with plucked strings and Carl attempting a vocal part as they were tracking it.  It was labeled here as HEROES AND VILLAINS FADE OUT.

So.... Ummm.  Hmmm.

Alan

[buddhahat]

Thanks Alan,

That is all fascinating information, especially to hear that the OMP + FB mix was done in 68.

As ever, the information about the various Gee + sections just leads to more uncertainty!

And wow what I'd give to hear that mix of Child that you're referring to! I'm assuming I'd be pushing my luck to ask you to elaborate on the structure of that mix?!

[buddhahat]

FYI - That piece they call "Barnshine" or "False Barnyard" was originally recorded as part two of SUNSHINE, and there is a mono rough mix in the vaults with that section coming up right after the OLD MASTER PAINTER/SUNSHINE mixdown with Dennis' lead.  It has that bit of a SUNSHINE vocal from Brian (not Mike) buried way deep in there.  This appears to be a rough mix made in 1968 at Wally Heider while they were working out what was going to be on "Stack O Tracks."  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

Alan, this mix you refer to - are the two sections actually edited together, or just following one another with a gap between, i.e. at what point during the melting strings ending of OMP does False Barnyard jump in?

Many thanks if you can answer this!

[The Song Of The Grange]

Thanks for the wonderful info Alan.

Damn, now I have to go back and change my Smile mix yet again. I thought I was done. How foolish I was.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Thanks for the wonderful info Alan.

Damn, now I have to go back and change my Smile mix yet again. I thought I was done. How foolish I was.

You will never, ever be done. Because just when you think you are, when you think you've heard EVERYTHING out there, something shows up out of the blue. Perhaps just a snippet, but as you know, all of us SMiLE-fanatics must include every bit ever recorded. It's an endless cycle of abuse we put on ourselves. And worth it. 

[Bicyclerider]

I have always assumed, like alan, that the "Bicycle Rider" vocal and overdub session on Jan 5 was for a revised Side One of the single, that was rejected eventually for the cantina version on Feb 10th.  But then why was it recorded with a new Master #, and this new # was used for subsequent "Part 2" sessions like the Fade to Heroes and Villains and the Intro to Heroes and Villains?

We have a rough mix of the "Part 2" sections worked on Feb 20th and it seems clear these were meant for a side two version.  But then how would the "bridge" (H & V chorus), the intro, the prelude to fade and the fade fit into that?  Had Brian bagged 2/20 sections altogether and was making a new "side two/Part 2?"

[Cam Mott]

It's too bad there isn't a for-research-only comp of all of the available H&V bits arranged and identified by date put together by some ambitious fan. I've alreday got so I can't remeber which bit is what.

It is confusing when you try to go by the notations of "parts" on vocal recordings, written and verbal, because of the reasons you said. "Side", "fade", "intro", "prelude", "tag" not so much. When you can tie them to a master number it seems to me it clears up the vague notations. Not foolproof or certain but more definite at least. Can I get a witness on that?

Alan, if you happen by again, is there an unreleased tape in the vaults for a b-side for one of the PS singles that is a sort of sampler of the PS' album? Something I've been told but never seen mentioned so I'm sort of doubting it.

[The Shift]

It's too bad there isn't a for-research-only comp of all of the available H&V bits arranged and identified by date put together by some ambitious fan. I've alreday got so I can't remeber which bit is what.

It is confusing when you try to go by the notations of "parts" on vocal recordings, written and verbal, because of the reasons you said. "Side", "fade", "intro", "prelude", "tag" not so much. When you can tie them to a master number it seems to me it clears up the vague notations. Not foolproof or certain but more definite at least. Can I get a witness on that?

What would suit me (I've never been able to keep track of all the different ways these are referred to) would be a list that identifies the segments by master number, x-ref'd to the boot they appear on by boot title and track number.

If Cam's bold enough to admit he's confused, I'm certainly not ashamed to say I am too! 

[Cam Mott]

I would like that too.

I'm not so much confused as rusty on what's what.

OK, rusty and confused.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Thanks for the wonderful info Alan.

Damn, now I have to go back and change my Smile mix yet again. I thought I was done. How foolish I was.

You will never, ever be done. Because just when you think you are, when you think you've heard EVERYTHING out there, something shows up out of the blue. Perhaps just a snippet, but as you know, all of us SMiLE-fanatics must include every bit ever recorded. It's an endless cycle of abuse we put on ourselves. And worth it. 

Jeez....Now I gotta cut "False Barnyard" off of my version of "Heroes And Villains" and graft it on to "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine". But I'll love every minute of it. If you guys play around with it (your mix), please go to the "Your Personal SMiLE mix" thread and let me know how you're doing with it.

[Cam Mott]

Here's my contribution.  Needs to be parsed and added to and updated. Some of it is comment by me and conjecture based on tape of publication; probably need to weed that out.

Heroes and Villains

May 11    Heroes And Villains (I);  55999/12872; Gold Star; 13 musicians
      Variations on You Are My Sunshine according to Al Kooper; erased

?<Oct16>   Heroes and Villains (I); 56727/14150; Western

October 20    Heroes & Villains (I); 56727/14159; Western Recorders; 2:00pm-7:30pm; 8 musicians; including VDP; Tommy Morgan called at 5:00;
      ?verse + Barnyard
          
October 27    Heroes & Villains; 56738/14163; Western; (I); 4 musicians, VDP; 4 musicians, Dorothy Victor called at 5:30
   I’m In Great Shape

Nov. 4   Mix Session?
   H&V demo

?Late Nov.-early Dec  Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; according to Mike Love and Vosse

Dec. 13    Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; Columbia

Dec. 19    Heroes & Villains (I); 57020/14236; Western; 16 musicians;    Blaine held 1:30

Dec. 22    “Insert for Heroes & Villains (overdub)” (v) ML + 5 BBs

Dec. 27    Heroes & Villains (v) BW solo session

Dec. 28    Heroes & Villains (v); BW solo

January 3  Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; (5 artists + Brian acting as AFTRA contractor)

2585
1) HEROS & VILLIANS -GREAT “DO A LOT” = "mama says" with the piano and
conga drum
2) HEROS & VILLIANS "BAG OF TRICKS" = "alt whistles
3) VERSION PR 1’S BRIDGE TO INDIANS + ascending "ahhs" plus the thing that comes before it on the GVBS "Sections" mix (ahhh doot doo doot doo doo doo doo doo)
4) HEROS & VILLIANS TAG TO PART #1
5) HEROS & VILLIANS P.U. TO 3RD VERS = ascending "ahhs" minus both the last "hmmm" note AND minus the note before that
{“All Day” [not listed on tapebox] =  ILTSDD + several tryouts of section order}

January 5  Heroes & Villains - Part 2 (I); 57045/14247; Western; 3 musicians; VDP
      "Heroes And Villains Side Two"

January 20  Heroes & Villains (i); 57074/14258; Columbia; 3 musicians;                   CANNED SESSION

      Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; (5 artists+ Brian, acting as AFTRA contractor)

January 27  Heroes & Villains  (v); Columbia; 6-9pm, 10-12pm;                   a mix with a Brian/Mike co-lead on 3 verses; whistling/dum “scat” verse

Jan 31 Heroes & Villains Mix session

HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART
1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2
4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)
EDITED, indicating all above parts
6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

Feb 3   Heroes & Villains (v); BB

February 7 Heroes & Villains (v); BB

Heroes & Villains (I); 57020/14236i; Columbia; Tedesco only

Feb 10   Heroes & Villains (v; mixdown); Columbia; Brian only

2/10/67 - “Heros & Villains” as of 2/10/67 master
1st verse
2nd verse
3rd verse (all edited together)

1 - bridge to 3rd verse
2 - bridge to fade
3 - cantina
4 - 2nd verse
5 - fade

Feb 15    Heroes & Villains (I); 57020/14236k; Western; 19 musicians mostly strings; VDP
“Prelude to Fade”

Feb 21   Heroes & Villains [v] BB

Feb 24   Heroes & Villains [v] BW only

Feb 26   Heroes & Villains [v] BB vocals; Columbia

Feb 27    Heroes & Villains - Part II (I); 57045/14247-A; Western; 2-3 musicians          including Gene Estes

Feb 28    Heroes & Villains - Part II Insert (I); 57045/14247-B; Western; 7-8 musicians including VDP, Ahbez shown in photo
   “Fade out to Heroes and Villians”

March 1    Heroes & Villains - Part II (I); Western; 57045/14247-C; 6-7 musicians including Gene Estes and Hal Blaine
      “Intro to Heroes and Villains”

March 2    Heroes & Villains, Part II (Insert) (I); Western; 57045/14247-D; 2-3 musicians including Hal Blaine

Could "Part 1" from Jan. 21 be the strings mixed down on the BR/H&V chorus on Smiley?

[Bicyclerider]

A question for Alan-

You mentioned the tape box with the "Part 2" sections is dated 2/20/67 - I haven't seen this previously listed as a vocal or instrumental Heroes session, although there is documentation for 2/21.  Could this date be the date for the editing and compilation of the different sections, rather than the date the vocal work was done? 

[Cam Mott]

Pile on Alan.

Alan, I've seen where one tapebox had the single # 2585 noted but I wonder if there are any master numbers ever noted on these H&V vocal/comp tape boxes?

Thanks.