So was there, or was there not a Heroes and Villians Part 2?

[The Shift]

'Scuse me for bumping this back up but there I was, just working away, with Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue on in the background for the first time.

It reached point 5:14 and seemed suddenly to burst in to Heroes & Villains.

Despite being aware that it's one of BW's fave's, I'd never listened to RiB before and was rather gobsmacked.

So I thought I'd point it out to anyone else who'd never listened to it before.

Please visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-m754FKT8  and confirm what my ears just seemed to be telling me? It's brief, but I'm sure that influence is there.

[grillo]

'Scuse me for bumping this back up but there I was, just working away, with Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue on in the background for the first time.

It reached point 5:14 and seemed suddenly to burst in to Heroes & Villains.

Despite being aware that it's one of BW's fave's, I'd never listened to RiB before and was rather gobsmacked.

So I thought I'd point it out to anyone else who'd never listened to it before.

Please visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-m754FKT8  and confirm what my ears just seemed to be telling me? It's brief, but I'm sure that influence is there.

Good call. The quiet part into that crazy horn melody is sorta smileish too, but that horn thing is very H&V.

[Reverend Rock]

Thanks for the wonderful info Alan.

Damn, now I have to go back and change my Smile mix yet again. I thought I was done. How foolish I was.

You will never, ever be done. Because just when you think you are, when you think you've heard EVERYTHING out there, something shows up out of the blue. Perhaps just a snippet, but as you know, all of us SMiLE-fanatics must include every bit ever recorded. It's an endless cycle of abuse we put on ourselves. And worth it. 

Jeez....Now I gotta cut "False Barnyard" off of my version of "Heroes And Villains" and graft it on to "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine". But I'll love every minute of it. If you guys play around with it (your mix), please go to the "Your Personal SMiLE mix" thread and let me know how you're doing with it.

I think with this information, I may be about to attempt an "LP length SMiLE" CD mix in a few days.  I'll let you know what I come up with, since "Your Personal SMiLE mix" is already high on my list of favorite threads around here...

[All Golden 74]

That is my reading of H&V Part 1 and 2, if it has the H&V master number it was for side 1 and if it has the H&V Part 2 master number it was for side 2. Easy peasy. Aren't I correct in that all [most?] known Part 2 tracks are a sample from a non-H&V album track which had the Wormsy lyrics changed or Fire orchestration changed or the do-a-lotiness removed etc.? Part 2 seems to be H&V variations on themes from the rest of the album tracks.

The above quote is driving me nuts, so I finally registered (this is my first post).  I don't KNOW if this idea is correct (or, rather, based in fact), but my hat goes off to you Cam Mott, as this is a FANTASTICALLY GREAT idea!  I might have missed it, but has anyone talked about how this might solve the problem (or at least answer the question) of where the "Heroes and Villains (intro)" was supposed to go.  IF H&V Part 2 was variations on themes from other SMILE album tracks, IF the H&V (intro) was a variation on "Cabinessence (Who Ran the Iron Horse)" or "The Elements (Fire)", then I'm thinking that H&V Part 2 would have been a non-LP B-side like "You're Welcome".  Maybe the H&V (intro) became the intro to "Mrs. O' Leary's Cow" on BWPS because a non-LP B-side was no longer very important(relevant) in 2004.
Thanks also for pointing out the different master numbers (57020/57045).  I never noticed them in the Badman book, even though they're RIGHT THERE (guess I'm dumb).

[buddhahat]

That is my reading of H&V Part 1 and 2, if it has the H&V master number it was for side 1 and if it has the H&V Part 2 master number it was for side 2. Easy peasy. Aren't I correct in that all [most?] known Part 2 tracks are a sample from a non-H&V album track which had the Wormsy lyrics changed or Fire orchestration changed or the do-a-lotiness removed etc.? Part 2 seems to be H&V variations on themes from the rest of the album tracks.

The above quote is driving me nuts, so I finally registered (this is my first post).  I don't KNOW if this idea is correct (or, rather, based in fact), but my hat goes off to you Cam Mott, as this is a FANTASTICALLY GREAT idea!  I might have missed it, but has anyone talked about how this might solve the problem (or at least answer the question) of where the "Heroes and Villains (intro)" was supposed to go.  IF H&V Part 2 was variations on themes from other SMILE album tracks, IF the H&V (intro) was a variation on "Cabinessence (Who Ran the Iron Horse)" or "The Elements (Fire)", then I'm thinking that H&V Part 2 would have been a non-LP B-side like "You're Welcome".  Maybe the H&V (intro) became the intro to "Mrs. O' Leary's Cow" on BWPS because a non-LP B-side was no longer very important(relevant) in 2004.
Thanks also for pointing out the different master numbers (57020/57045).  I never noticed them in the Badman book, even though they're RIGHT THERE (guess I'm dumb).

I agree that this is a brilliant theory because it actually makes much more sense of the myriad variations that show up during heroes sessions. Pieces such as Heroes intro, Do A Lot, All Day, Swedish Frog, With Me Tonight (fast version) that seemingly should belong with other songs, make much more sense when viewed as snippet samplers of longer songs within the album i.e. Heroes intro=Fire, Swedish Frog=Great Shape, All day=Dada, With Me Tonight (fast version)=With Me Tonight (long slow version) etc.

[The Shift]

Are we saying that side two would have been the entire album distilled into a single track the length of a 45rpm single side?

[buddhahat]

Are we saying that side two would have been the entire album distilled into a single track the length of a 45rpm single side?

It's Cam's theory, but I have to say it's the best explanation for why Heroes seemed to encompass so many bits from other songs.

[The Shift]

I'm not a musician - are all these segments in the correct keys to flow together?

[All Golden 74]

Heroes intro=Fire, Swedish Frog=Great Shape, All day=Dada, With Me Tonight (fast version)=With Me Tonight (long slow version) etc.

How about Bridge to Indians=Prayer(Our Prayer)?  Both end with hmmm(although the version of Bridge to Indians on the GVBS cuts off the hmmm and is called Pickup to 3rd verse!), although I don't think this was recorded as a Part 2 section.
Gee(How I Love My Girl) was recorded as a Part 2 section, so Gee=Vegetables or Child Is Father Of The Man(maybe)?  Another post has talked about the similarities of these 2 cuts, so maybe these H&V Part 2 variations could = more than one song.  Heroes and Villains (intro) sounds like Fire and the Cabinessence section called Who Ran the Iron Horse.

[Cam Mott]

Are we saying that side two would have been the entire album distilled into a single track the length of a 45rpm single side?

It's Cam's theory, but I have to say it's the best explanation for why Heroes seemed to encompass so many bits from other songs.
[/quote

Yes, only my theory but there are Part 2 tracks recorded for a concurrent H&V master number, just as it would be for a b-side for a single, and no one has refuted that the tracks known to be recorded for that master number are a new track mimicing sections, not sections from, SMiLE album tracks. So if you just look at that, H&V Part 2 57045 is as far as we currently know a collection of mimic sections from the other tracks of the album.

[The Shift]

Are we saying that side two would have been the entire album distilled into a single track the length of a 45rpm single side?

It's Cam's theory, but I have to say it's the best explanation for why Heroes seemed to encompass so many bits from other songs.
[/quote

Yes, only my theory but there are Part 2 tracks recorded for a concurrent H&V master number, just as it would be for a b-side for a single, and no one has refuted that the tracks known to be recorded for that master number are a new track mimicing sections, not sections from, SMiLE album tracks. So if you just look at that, H&V Part 2 57045 is as far as we currently know a collection of mimic sections from the other tracks of the album.

Cam, do you know if there's a resource anywhere that idenitifes the master numbers by relating them to the bootlegs they've appeared on? I'm not atuned enough to be able to distinguish everything.,,,

[Cam Mott]

Well, I'm a little foggy on it now since I'm not obsessing over it anymore [or at the moment?]. I was hoping Lou the Bicycle Rider or c-man or Alan would pitch in with the latest on that.

[Cam Mott]

When I think about it, it makes better sense of Brian's comment that he was going back and forth on giving away too much about SMiLE with the B-side of H&V. A B-side with several samples of tracks from all over the album would give away  too much but would a B-side of a single track from the album really give away too much? Maybe. Depends.