So was there, or was there not a Heroes and Villians Part 2?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

According to say kidney stone-suffering brainiac (or is it Brianiac?), the Cantina version, up until the "tape explosion" is Brian's edit. The "false Barnyard" was tacked on later, not by Brian.

So the song would abruptly end at the tape explosion? Weird, man 

[buddhahat]

According to say kidney stone-suffering brainiac (or is it Brianiac?), the Cantina version, up until the "tape explosion" is Brian's edit. The "false Barnyard" was tacked on later, not by Brian.

What!!?? I had always assumed that alt heroes was a Brian edit, even though the fade does seem to come on a bit abruptly. This seems like major news for all us geeky smile mixers, as that version of H&V seemed like one of the few 'certainties' in the smile story. Does this mean there is no test edit for a complete Heroes & Villains in its pre-smiley state?

Also is there any evidence to suggest Brian intended to use that False Barnyard fade in Heroes & villains at all?

Also you mention the test edit of OMP + False barnyard and that it's on Secret Smile. It is indeed on that boot, but as two separate tracks, albeit next to one another. There is quite a gap between the two tracks - Is this an accurate representation of the complete OMP test edit, as I'd always imagined the cantina fade would be spliced in earlier?

[Wrightfan]

According to say kidney stone-suffering brainiac (or is it Brianiac?), the Cantina version, up until the "tape explosion" is Brian's edit. The "false Barnyard" was tacked on later, not by Brian.

So the song would abruptly end at the tape explosion? Weird, man 

Not sure. I kinda think there would've been more. In my recent tinkering, I have the section that is next to last on the BWPS version (the one with the strings and all) and then I end with the flutter horn.

[The Song Of The Grange]

What!!?? I had always assumed that alt heroes was a Brian edit, even though the fade does seem to come on a bit abruptly. This seems like major news for all us geeky smile mixers, as that version of H&V seemed like one of the few 'certainties' in the smile story. Does this mean there is no test edit for a complete Heroes & Villains in its pre-smiley state?

Also is there any evidence to suggest Brian intended to use that False Barnyard fade in Heroes & villains at all?

Also you mention the test edit of OMP + False barnyard and that it's on Secret Smile. It is indeed on that boot, but as two separate tracks, albeit next to one another. There is quite a gap between the two tracks - Is this an accurate representation of the complete OMP test edit, as I'd always imagined the cantina fade would be spliced in earlier?

I share buddhahat's shock and surprise if it is true the Cantina version is not pure legit BW from '67. We know that the fade to Vegetables was tacked on for the Box set, just to throw some more precious Smile era material in there. But I have never heard of the fade to the Cantina mix being added to the end of the song later. I think I would like more of the wise sages to weigh in on the matter before I go change my Smile mix. I have never heard anywhere else that the Cantina mix wasn't all legit BW.

I may need to change my Smile mix, however, because of the observation about OMP + False barnyard. I have always known they were associated with each other.  After all, if you listen close to that one version of False Barnyard you can hear someone (maybe Mike Love?) singing the words to You Are My Sunshine. So it would make sense as a fade to that song. Al Kooper's book seems to suggest that H&V started life in mid-1966 as a bunch of variations on You Are My Sunshine. So there seems to be evidence linking OMP to H&V too. I can buy the idea that OMP was going to be a short track, maybe just OMP + False barnyard fade, after all, on that mysterious handwritten track list, OMP had brackets around it at first, and then someone crossed them out. I have always taken this to mean that who ever was writing the list was unsure if OMP was a stand-alone track or not.

[The Shift]

if you listen close to that one version of False Barnyard you can hear someone (maybe Mike Love?) singing the words to You Are My Sunshine.

I think that's Dennis, and he's singing "You were my sunshine..."

[Bicyclerider]

What!!?? I had always assumed that alt heroes was a Brian edit, even though the fade does seem to come on a bit abruptly. This seems like major news for all us geeky smile mixers, as that version of H&V seemed like one of the few 'certainties' in the smile story. Does this mean there is no test edit for a complete Heroes & Villains in its pre-smiley state?

Also is there any evidence to suggest Brian intended to use that False Barnyard fade in Heroes & villains at all?

Also you mention the test edit of OMP + False barnyard and that it's on Secret Smile. It is indeed on that boot, but as two separate tracks, albeit next to one another. There is quite a gap between the two tracks - Is this an accurate representation of the complete OMP test edit, as I'd always imagined the cantina fade would be spliced in earlier?

I share buddhahat's shock and surprise if it is true the Cantina version is not pure legit BW from '67. We know that the fade to Vegetables was tacked on for the Box set, just to throw some more precious Smile era material in there. But I have never heard of the fade to the Cantina mix being added to the end of the song later. I think I would like more of the wise sages to weigh in on the matter before I go change my Smile mix. I have never heard anywhere else that the Cantina mix wasn't all legit BW.

OK, calm down everybody - the cantina fade is ABSOLUTELY a Brian 1967 edit, where did people get the idea it's not?  alan boyd has shared with us what was on the tape box the cantina safety copy was found in, and the cantina safety copy was not altered when it was tranferred to CD on the SMiley Smile/WH 2fer or on the GV box or anywhere else (well, except being treated to noise reduction on the first release).  The confusion may be from the GV box "Heroes and Villains (sections)" where the cantina ending was edited onto to end of the "Part 2" sections - on bootlegs the Smiley Smile/single "sunny down snuff" a capella ending is grafted onto the end of the sections.

How do we know there was an A and Bsided single?  I think the evidence is good for it:  Vosse remembered in 1969, long before Dominic's theories, that it was to be an A and Bsided single.  Chuck Britz in interviews before his death also recalled it being a 2 sided single, with both parts being completed by Brian.  The tapebox of the released single's chorus, recorded in February, is marked "Side Two."  Mike in June 67 played a six minute tape of Heroes to a reporter, and in March/April a reporter commented on a "five to six minute" version of Heroes.  Both of these were probably the same extended mix that was to be split over two sides of a single.

While there are sessions where "Part 2" is slated, as mentioned above it's hard to know if that means pt. 2 of the A side or "Part 2" the Bside of the single.  But when Brian started recording sessions for "Part 2" in January with a different master number than previous Heroes sessions, that's a pretty good indicator that those sessions were destined for something other than the same A side of the single as the previous sessions.

[Cam Mott]

It was news to me Lou.

I think we un-necessarily torture the evidence sometimes. That is my reading of H&V Part 1 and 2, if it has the H&V master number it was for side 1 and if it has the H&V Part 2 master number it was for side 2. Easy peasy. Aren't I correct in that all [most?] known Part 2 tracks are a sample from a non-H&V album track which had the Wormsy lyrics changed or Fire orchestration changed or the do-a-lotiness removed etc.? Part 2 seems to be H&V variations on themes from the rest of the album tracks. I've been told that something like that, a sampler type master was put together for one of the PS' single but was unreleased. I'd love to have that confirmed or denied.

So I think we have had it wrong in H&V being the incubator for the SMiLE album tracks [even though Carl thought so] and instead the SMiLE album tracks were the incubator for H&V or rather for the H&V single and even then only [mostly] for H&V Part 2.

[buddhahat]

What!!?? I had always assumed that alt heroes was a Brian edit, even though the fade does seem to come on a bit abruptly. This seems like major news for all us geeky smile mixers, as that version of H&V seemed like one of the few 'certainties' in the smile story. Does this mean there is no test edit for a complete Heroes & Villains in its pre-smiley state?

Also is there any evidence to suggest Brian intended to use that False Barnyard fade in Heroes & villains at all?

Also you mention the test edit of OMP + False barnyard and that it's on Secret Smile. It is indeed on that boot, but as two separate tracks, albeit next to one another. There is quite a gap between the two tracks - Is this an accurate representation of the complete OMP test edit, as I'd always imagined the cantina fade would be spliced in earlier?

I share buddhahat's shock and surprise if it is true the Cantina version is not pure legit BW from '67. We know that the fade to Vegetables was tacked on for the Box set, just to throw some more precious Smile era material in there. But I have never heard of the fade to the Cantina mix being added to the end of the song later. I think I would like more of the wise sages to weigh in on the matter before I go change my Smile mix. I have never heard anywhere else that the Cantina mix wasn't all legit BW.

OK, calm down everybody - the cantina fade is ABSOLUTELY a Brian 1967 edit, where did people get the idea it's not?  alan boyd has shared with us what was on the tape box the cantina safety copy was found in, and the cantina safety copy was not altered when it was tranferred to CD on the SMiley Smile/WH 2fer or on the GV box or anywhere else (well, except being treated to noise reduction on the first release).  The confusion may be from the GV box "Heroes and Villains (sections)" where the cantina ending was edited onto to end of the "Part 2" sections - on bootlegs the Smiley Smile/single "sunny down snuff" a capella ending is grafted onto the end of the sections.

Phew - all is right with the world!

[Jason]

I'm going to have to track down the post that I read about the Cantina edit only being Brian's up until the "tape explosion" bit. I'm pretty sure I read it on this board or possibly the Shut Down board; I certainly wouldn't make something like that up. 

Not that I'm knocking the Cantina version by any means, nor am I disregarding its authenticity. I'm basically repeating what I remember reading. If I was indeed mistaken, my apologies.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

if you listen close to that one version of False Barnyard you can hear someone (maybe Mike Love?) singing the words to You Are My Sunshine.

I think that's Dennis, and he's singing "You were my sunshine..."

No, he's referring to 'Barnshine'. The 'False Barnyard/Cantina ending' with Mike singing 'You Were My Sunshine' over it, albeit faintly.

[The Shift]

Aha -  with you. IS that the same that first appeared on Long Lost Surf Songs volume something or other, many years ago?

[Bicyclerider]

Yes.

[BJL]

How do we know there was an A and Bsided single?  I think the evidence is good for it:  Vosse remembered in 1969, long before Dominic's theories, that it was to be an A and Bsided single.  Chuck Britz in interviews before his death also recalled it being a 2 sided single, with both parts being completed by Brian.  The tapebox of the released single's chorus, recorded in February, is marked "Side Two."  Mike in June 67 played a six minute tape of Heroes to a reporter, and in March/April a reporter commented on a "five to six minute" version of Heroes.  Both of these were probably the same extended mix that was to be split over two sides of a single.

I think the loss of the 6 minute heroes edit may be the greatest tragedy in Smile.  If we just had that edit, even on the world's worst sounding acetate, then someone could go back to the safety-master tapes and splice together a legitimate 6 minute Heroes and Villians!  that would be unimaginabley wonderful, and bring us a lot closer to what 67 smile would have sounded like!  The idea that such a mix obviously existed, but hasn't survived the ages, is almost unbearable for me...

[Dunderhead]

How do we know there was an A and Bsided single?  I think the evidence is good for it:  Vosse remembered in 1969, long before Dominic's theories, that it was to be an A and Bsided single.  Chuck Britz in interviews before his death also recalled it being a 2 sided single, with both parts being completed by Brian.  The tapebox of the released single's chorus, recorded in February, is marked "Side Two."  Mike in June 67 played a six minute tape of Heroes to a reporter, and in March/April a reporter commented on a "five to six minute" version of Heroes.  Both of these were probably the same extended mix that was to be split over two sides of a single.

I think the loss of the 6 minute heroes edit may be the greatest tragedy in Smile.  If we just had that edit, even on the world's worst sounding acetate, then someone could go back to the safety-master tapes and splice together a legitimate 6 minute Heroes and Villians!  that would be unimaginabley wonderful, and bring us a lot closer to what 67 smile would have sounded like!  The idea that such a mix obviously existed, but hasn't survived the ages, is almost unbearable for me...

The tape box with the Look vocals is empty.
Let me repeat that.
THE TAPE BOX WITH THE LOOK VOCALS IS EMPTY!

When I try to explain the tragedy that is lost, unreleased, or unfinished Beach Boys material to people, they just scratch their heads. My kingdom for a true stereo Good Vibrations.

[buddhahat]

How do we know there was an A and Bsided single?  I think the evidence is good for it:  Vosse remembered in 1969, long before Dominic's theories, that it was to be an A and Bsided single.  Chuck Britz in interviews before his death also recalled it being a 2 sided single, with both parts being completed by Brian.  The tapebox of the released single's chorus, recorded in February, is marked "Side Two."  Mike in June 67 played a six minute tape of Heroes to a reporter, and in March/April a reporter commented on a "five to six minute" version of Heroes.  Both of these were probably the same extended mix that was to be split over two sides of a single.

One of the questions a 2 sided H&V throws up for me is how side a would have ended - presumably it would have to have sounded like an ending, yet still been a transition to the start of side b if, so that when played as a whole it flowed through seamlessly. The western theme section + flutter horn fits all the criteria for this - it would have sounded like an ending, yet simultaneoulsy would have hinted at more to follow (flip the single!). Just my hunch obviously, but I really think this was what the western theme was for.

[Cam Mott]

H&V Part/Side 1 [57020] must have ended with "Prelude to Fade" [57020: 2/15/67] to one of the versions of "Tag to Part 1" [57020: 1/3/67 or ?].

Then H&V Part/Side 2 [57045] must have begun with the Elements-Part 1 sampled "Intro to Heroes and Villains" [57045: 3/1/67] and ended with "Fade Out To Heroes and Villians" [57045: 2/28/67], the unYAMSed-Carl-added sample of the OMP album track fade. Presumably the OMP fade remained with the OMP album track, if it mattered anymore at that point, and was therefore among the H&V Part 2 album sampler. In my world anyway.

[buddhahat]

H&V Part/Side 1 [57020] must have ended with "Prelude to Fade" [57020: 2/15/67] to one of the versions of "Tag to Part 1" [57020: 1/3/67 or ?].

Then H&V Part/Side 2 [57045] must have begun with the Elements-Part 1 sampled "Intro to Heroes and Villains" [57045: 3/1/67] and ended with "Fade Out To Heroes and Villians" [57045: 2/28/67], the unYAMSed-Carl-added sample of the OMP album track fade. Presumably the OMP fade remained with the OMP album track, if it mattered anymore at that point, and was therefore among the H&V Part 2 album sampler. In my world anyway.

Is the tag to part 1 the piano version of Do A Lot? I've tried that in mixes and think it works well - presumably it would have been a fade? I never considered heroes intro as the start to Part 2 but I guess it makes complete sense. But what could have followed it? Gee, swedish frog, heroes sections through to dum,dum,dum, perhaps followed by the false barnyard fade?

Do you really the think the omp fade would have remained with omp, aswell as the nearly identical fade being used in heroes? Maybe if false barnyad fade only appeared on the b-side of the heroes & villains single that would be feasible as the fade would not have been duplicated on the album. Then as you say, it acts as a sort of sampler for OMP on the album. The heroes intro functions as a sampler for fire, but I don't see how other songs are represented other than maybe worms? I suspect more that Brian was just constantly cannibalising smile songs to create his H&V single, but who knows - you may be right. Yours is a more optimistic theory I think.

[Cam Mott]

Is the tag to part 1 the piano version of Do A Lot? I've tried that in mixes and think it works well - presumably it would have been a fade? I never considered heroes intro as the start to Part 2 but I guess it makes complete sense. But what could have followed it? Gee, swedish frog, heroes sections through to dum,dum,dum, perhaps followed by the false barnyard fade?

Do you really the think the omp fade would have remained with omp, aswell as the nearly identical fade being used in heroes? Maybe if false barnyad fade only appeared on the b-side of the heroes & villains single that would be feasible as the fade would not have been duplicated on the album. Then as you say, it acts as a sort of sampler for OMP on the album. The heroes intro functions as a sampler for fire, but I don't see how other songs are represented other than maybe worms? I suspect more that Brian was just constantly cannibalising smile songs to create his H&V single, but who knows - you may be right. Yours is a more optimistic theory I think.

Tag to Part 1 [57020]: Maybe. As I remember there are a few versions of it including a "version 4". Tag and fade are used interchangably in Beach Boys recordings it seems to me.

H&V Part 2 [57045]: The H&V/BR section [57045: 1/3 or 5/67] would probably follow, and whatever was recorded for H&V Part 2 [57045] after Jan. 3 or 5, including the OMP rerecorded/sampled fade.
I suppose the OMP fade stayed the OMP fade but it did not remain as the fade for H&V Part 1 [57020] after the cantina mix because it had since been recorded as the H&V Part 2 [57045] fade. Perhaps that "version 4" of "Tag to Part 1" [57020] or maybe something recorded [for 57020] after the cantina version was scrapped replaced the OMP fade on H&V Part 1 [57020]?

Thanks, I prefer to think of my theory as more realistic but optimistic works too.

[buddhahat]

Is the tag to part 1 the piano version of Do A Lot? I've tried that in mixes and think it works well - presumably it would have been a fade? I never considered heroes intro as the start to Part 2 but I guess it makes complete sense. But what could have followed it? Gee, swedish frog, heroes sections through to dum,dum,dum, perhaps followed by the false barnyard fade?

Do you really the think the omp fade would have remained with omp, aswell as the nearly identical fade being used in heroes? Maybe if false barnyad fade only appeared on the b-side of the heroes & villains single that would be feasible as the fade would not have been duplicated on the album. Then as you say, it acts as a sort of sampler for OMP on the album. The heroes intro functions as a sampler for fire, but I don't see how other songs are represented other than maybe worms? I suspect more that Brian was just constantly cannibalising smile songs to create his H&V single, but who knows - you may be right. Yours is a more optimistic theory I think.

Tag to Part 1 [57020]: Maybe. As I remember there are a few versions of it including a "version 4". Tag and fade are used interchangably in Beach Boys recordings it seems to me.

H&V Part 2 [57045]: The H&V/BR section [57045: 1/3 or 5/67] would probably follow, and whatever was recorded for H&V Part 2 [57045] after Jan. 3 or 5, including the OMP rerecorded/sampled fade.
I suppose the OMP fade stayed the OMP fade but it did not remain as the fade for H&V Part 1 [57020] after the cantina mix because it had since been recorded as the H&V Part 2 [57045] fade. Perhaps that "version 4" of "Tag to Part 1" [57020] or maybe something recorded [for 57020] after the cantina version was scrapped replaced the OMP fade on H&V Part 1 [57020]?

Thanks, I prefer to think of my theory as more realistic but optimistic works too.

Yes I just meant optimistic in the sense that the thought of Brian cannibalising smile tracks to create the H&V single, leaving Smile bankrupt as an album in the process, seems like a  depressing theory.

H&V Part 2 [57045]: The H&V/BR section [57045: 1/3 or 5/67] would probably follow

So are you saying that Heroes intro (the one that sounds like fire) would have kicked off part 2, followed by the bicycle rider section? I've never been able to work out how Brian might've used that BR section, I think because he used it more than once in the eventual single. It makes me wonder if he planned to use it similarly in the pre-smiley heroes i.e. recurring in the song.

[Bicyclerider]

I think the cannibalized Bicycle Rider version from Worms was dropped when he recorded the "new" Bicycle Rider/eventual Heroes chorus in a minor key in February.  That would have followed Prelude to Fade in Part 2 IMO, then the new Fade.

I don't think we can rule out that just because Brian recorded a new version of the OMP and now cantina version fade that the previous version was out of Part 1.  The two versions are different, with live Carl vocals on the second and a slightly different arrangement.  The return of the first fade, with some differences, might have functioned as a "chorus" or reference back to Part 1, since there still isn't a chorus in the song, to give it a cyclic structure.  I think it was definitely out of OMP now.  What would he have replaced it with?  Maybe . . . IWBA/FN?  Fits pretty well after the descending strings of YAMS.  Would've made OMP/YAMS/IWBA/FN some revolutionary track!

[buddhahat]

Tag to Part 1 [57020]: Maybe. As I remember there are a few versions of it including a "version 4"

I dug around and found a version of this tag (heroes & villains sessions vol 2) where the engineer can be heard saying "4" at the start - presumably the version 4 you refer to. This is fascinating as it has some piano embellishments very similar to the windchimes tag. It makes me think there may be something to your theory that a 2 sided heroes might have been a show case/sampler for the album, with the various songs represented in some form.

Is there another version of Tag to part 1:version 4, as the one I mention ends quite abruptly, and has Brian talking over it?

[The Song Of The Grange]

Tag to Part 1 [57020]: Maybe. As I remember there are a few versions of it including a "version 4". Tag and fade are used interchangably in Beach Boys recordings it seems to me.

H&V Part 2 [57045]: The H&V/BR section [57045: 1/3 or 5/67] would probably follow, and whatever was recorded for H&V Part 2 [57045] after Jan. 3 or 5, including the OMP rerecorded/sampled fade.
I suppose the OMP fade stayed the OMP fade but it did not remain as the fade for H&V Part 1 [57020] after the cantina mix because it had since been recorded as the H&V Part 2 [57045] fade. Perhaps that "version 4" of "Tag to Part 1" [57020] or maybe something recorded [for 57020] after the cantina version was scrapped replaced the OMP fade on H&V Part 1 [57020]?

Thanks, I prefer to think of my theory as more realistic but optimistic works too.

Do you have a good source for finding out which parts of H&V belong to [57020] or [57045]. I know the union sheets would tell me this, but I don't know of a source that gives me access to all the union sheets.  Badman's book has some of them. I think that using the master numbers is a brilliant way to tell what is part 1 and what is part 2. Great theory.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Where is a good place to look at the session sheets for SMiLE? Under the session section at the SMiLE shop it doesn't really list all of the people who played, and not every song has a list of the session players. I looked at AGD's site, and that only listed sessions. Could someone direct me in the right direction?

[Cam Mott]

I've gotten vague on which track is what  but I've had a pretty good record in the past [100% but who's bragging?] with identifying which recordings went with which session info. I'm probably not up to date on the latest discoveries about which tracks were recorded on what date for which master number. I would love to have someone fill us in on the latest and confirm or deny there is a tape of a PS sampler resting in the vault [*cough*Alan*cough*]

[buddhahat]

I've gotten vague on which track is what  but I've had a pretty good record in the past [100% but who's bragging?] with identifying which recordings went with which session info. I'm probably not up to date on the latest discoveries about which tracks were recorded on what date for which master number. I would love to have someone fill us in on the latest and confirm or deny there is a tape of a PS sampler resting in the vault [*cough*Alan*cough*]

Your theory of the heroes a/b side as a sampler for the album actually becomes more appealing the more I consider it. It does explain why there are so many short sections that so clearly resemble the longer songs from the album. It makes more sense of, for example, Brian dumping a farm chant section right in the middle of heroes variations. That swedish frog section seems so arbitrary until you consider that it might be a sampler for the barnyard suite on the album, if that track was to exist.

So far I can think of the following snippets in H&V that could represent a longer album track: FB fade for OMP, Do A Lot for vegetables, swedish frog for the barnyard suite, with me tonight fast version for with me tonight, Tag to part 1 for windchimes, Heroes intro for Fire, BR for Worms, Gee for Wonderful or GV? I'm sure there must be more.