So was there, or was there not a Heroes and Villians Part 2?

[The Song Of The Grange]

Since there have been some Smile posts floating around again, I figured now was as good a time as any to ask another one of those impossible Smile questions. Was there a Heroes and Villains Part 2?  I have never heard a definitive answer to the question. Sure, in the session tapes the engineer can be heard slating a take as "Heroes and Villains Part 2", but this doesn't necessarily mean that the recording was a "part 2" song--in the Smile era it could just as easily mean "the second part of the song Heroes and Villains".

At some points I have been convinced that all the vocal riffs that are collectively lumped together as H&V Part 2 (and show up on the GV box set as the "extra" parts of H&V) could actually all be experiments for a potential chorus, which would come after the opening verses of the song. On the Cantina mix of H&V the second part of the song ended up being the wordless vocal variation that we hear after the main opening section. (On the eventual single release version of H&V this section is pushed further back into the song, but is still there). Also on the Cantina version, just before the tape-feedback explosion near the end of the track, you can hear a wordless version of one of the vocal sections lumped into the H&V Part 2 group. Plus, the sheer number of extra parts doesn't mean there was a second track--look at how much was recorded for GV.

On the other hand, there are many folks who say there was an H&V Part 2. All those vocal variations do seem to fit together well. It is very plausible that the B-side of the proposed single was going to be a collection of H&V chants.

So what do people think? H&V Part 2, once to be or not to be?

[Dunderhead]

Not to mention all the other parts that are rumored to have at one time or another been in H&V. With Me Tonight, Da-Da, Old Master Painter, I've even heard people say Vegetables was at one point part of H&V.

[buddhahat]

Since there have been some Smile posts floating around again, I figured now was as good a time as any to ask another one of those impossible Smile questions. Was there a Heroes and Villains Part 2?  I have never heard a definitive answer to the question. Sure, in the session tapes the engineer can be heard slating a take as "Heroes and Villains Part 2", but this doesn't necessarily mean that the recording was a "part 2" song--in the Smile era it could just as easily mean "the second part of the song Heroes and Villains".

At some points I have been convinced that all the vocal riffs that are collectively lumped together as H&V Part 2 (and show up on the GV box set as the "extra" parts of H&V) could actually all be experiments for a potential chorus, which would come after the opening verses of the song. On the Cantina mix of H&V the second part of the song ended up being the wordless vocal variation that we hear after the main opening section. (On the eventual single release version of H&V this section is pushed further back into the song, but is still there). Also on the Cantina version, just before the tape-feedback explosion near the end of the track, you can hear a wordless version of one of the vocal sections lumped into the H&V Part 2 group. Plus, the sheer number of extra parts doesn't mean there was a second track--look at how much was recorded for GV.

On the other hand, there are many folks who say there was an H&V Part 2. All those vocal variations do seem to fit together well. It is very plausible that the B-side of the proposed single was going to be a collection of H&V chants.

So what do people think? H&V Part 2, once to be or not to be?

There is, apparently on one of the boots (maybe archaeology?), a rough edit that appears to sequence these sections together and runs, if memory serves, from gee through to one of the dit dit heroes bits. It even sounds like the swedish frog section has been spliced out and so is configured much the same was as Mark Linnet sequenced these parts in the heroes sections bit. I remember a thread about this previously, and the general consensus was that this boot edit was a vintage Brian edit, although I asked Linnet here if he had based the sequence of his Sections mix on any actual Brian edits and he replied that he just sequenced it on the basis of what parts sounded good together.

My own hunch, based on the boot edit of these sections, is that Part 2 did exist and would have consisted largely of these sections. In the Vosse article he also states that H&V was at one point planned to run across the a & b side of a single.

[The Shift]

It's on the SoT box set if memory serves me correctly. The sections flow rather than have the stop-start nature of the official GV box release and, yes, the Swedish Frog section is missing.

I've a track titled "Part 2 Variations"   from something called "Heroes And Villains Sessions - Vol. 2" - don't know the source to be honest; probably a download - which link one of the faster, more produced "do-do-do, heroes & villains" sections with Swedish frog. My guess is that BW mixed that in the sequence, then nipped out the Swede Frog section.


(I am going by memory here -  my CDs are in crates so no I'm afraid I can't respond to PMs on this!)

[The Heartical Don]

It's on the SoT box set if memory serves me correctly. The sections flow rather than have the stop-start nature of the official GV box release and, yes, the Swedish Frog section is missing.

I've a track titled "Part 2 Variations"   from something called "Heroes And Villains Sessions - Vol. 2" - don't know the source to be honest; probably a download - which link one of the faster, more produced "do-do-do, heroes & villains" sections with Swedish frog. My guess is that BW mixed that in the sequence, then nipped out the Swede Frog section.


(I am going by memory here -  my CDs are in crates so no I'm afraid I can't respond to PMs on this!)

Why are your CDs in crates? Was it the wife?

[TheLazenby]

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

[Sheriff John Stone]

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

I used to think it was "Swedish meatballs". No kidding. 

[TheLazenby]

Incidentally, there IS a chunk of H&V in the Project Smile CD-Rom that is clearly "Mama Says", so that explains the 'Vegetables' theory - perhaps "Mama Says" was meant to be part of "I'm In Great Shape" at one point?

[The Song Of The Grange]

There is, apparently on one of the boots (maybe archaeology?), a rough edit that appears to sequence these sections together and runs, if memory serves, from gee through to one of the dit dit heroes bits. It even sounds like the swedish frog section has been spliced out and so is configured much the same was as Mark Linnet sequenced these parts in the heroes sections bit. I remember a thread about this previously, and the general consensus was that this boot edit was a vintage Brian edit, although I asked Linnet here if he had based the sequence of his Sections mix on any actual Brian edits and he replied that he just sequenced it on the basis of what parts sounded good together.

My own hunch, based on the boot edit of these sections, is that Part 2 did exist and would have consisted largely of these sections. In the Vosse article he also states that H&V was at one point planned to run across the a & b side of a single.
[/quote]

I will have to go back through the Vosse article.  That would be some good, fairly contemporary evidence of the a & b single.

I have heard some of these H&V sections mix and have never known what to make of them. They do sound like BW was clearly tinkering with these extra sections. It makes me very sad that this double sided single never came out.

[buddhahat]

Incidentally, there IS a chunk of H&V in the Project Smile CD-Rom that is clearly "Mama Says", so that explains the 'Vegetables' theory - perhaps "Mama Says" was meant to be part of "I'm In Great Shape" at one point?

Well the piano piece that the engineer introduces as Tag to part 1, is clearly Do A Lot, or an early version of it, so I think that section must have started as maybe a tag to the end of part 1 of heroes and then slowly migrated over to Vegetables. That's my take on it anyway.

[runnersdialzero]

Smile and Smiley Smile may as well just be called "Hereos and Villains". It seems as though all but a handful tracks had their origins as part of "Heroes and Villains".

(Yes, I know that's an exaggeration, but still - shoot, a lot of tracks really do have their origins in the song)

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

Well, the ending to the Cantina version was originally the last part of OMP. So it gave OMP a Country and Western feel.

[Cam Mott]

Did many of the album tracks begin in H&V or did H&V begin in the other album tracks? Not sure, but my theory is H&V was in part [entirely it seems in H&V Part 2] showcasing the album by using bits out the album songs with their album track theme stripped or modified for the H&V single. Maybe to emphasize Brian's desire of the times to make albums like Rubber Soul and Pet Sounds that were stand alone songs that went together like pictures in an exhibition?

Maybe "Swedish for water" is the water Element?

[armona]

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

Well, the ending to the Cantina version was originally the last part of OMP. So it gave OMP a Country and Western feel.

I've always thought that sounded odd when I've sequenced it because (assuming YAMS followed OMP) the song sort of has two fades in sequence--the dreary one for Sunshine followed by the Cantina ending.

[Dunderhead]

I've never liked the idea of a H&V II to be honest. When I try and sequence my mixes to replicate a 60's version I always start with Do You Like Worms after Prayer/Gee. H&V has a western vibe, while Do You Like Worms lyrically references Plymouth Rock, which has always made it a natural starter. I Usually use stuff from H&V II to flesh out the rest of the album, I think it's important to fit the heroes and villains theme into as many songs as possible.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

Well, the ending to the Cantina version was originally the last part of OMP. So it gave OMP a Country and Western feel.

I've always thought that sounded odd when I've sequenced it because (assuming YAMS followed OMP) the song sort of has two fades in sequence--the dreary one for Sunshine followed by the Cantina ending.

Yeah, the cantina ending sounds out of place on OMP to my ears. I think the dreary ending for Sunshine is perfect!

[buddhahat]

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

Well, the ending to the Cantina version was originally the last part of OMP. So it gave OMP a Country and Western feel.

I've always thought that sounded odd when I've sequenced it because (assuming YAMS followed OMP) the song sort of has two fades in sequence--the dreary one for Sunshine followed by the Cantina ending.

I suspect the False barnyard fade would've been spliced fairly soon into the melting cello fade, rather than having the whole cello fade to nothing, then the False Barnyard fade starting up after that. Just my hunch though. The cello fade sort of sounds like a place holder for the FB fade to me.

[The Shift]

When I try and sequence my mixes to replicate a 60's version I always start with Do You Like Worms after Prayer/Gee. H&V has a western vibe, while Do You Like Worms lyrically references Plymouth Rock, which has always made it a natural starter.

Agree absolutely.  The story flows better this way.

[Jason]

Heroes and Villains Part 2...one of the most confusing of all Smile debates.

As far as the existence of a Part 2, it's certainly become conjecture despite all of the evidence that it did exist at one point. There are of course God knows how many test mixes that it's hard to determine what would have constituted a Part 2. I certainly do believe that Brian was all about the "theme" as far as Smile is concerned because parts of Heroes and Villains, Wonderful, and Vega-Tables pop up all over different songs.

But the idea of a Part 2 has been distorted to the point that people believe that Brian was making lengthy test edits, and the lack of audio evidence seems to go against the theory, even though a seven minute version was reported to exist but was lost. I don't know if Brian would have gone far past the three minute window with the Smile songs. Edits exist, of course, but they're merely edits. It's all conjecture and all up for debate.

Brian certainly wasn't going progressive rock on us by any means. The idea of movements, if Peter Reum is to be believed (and he's certainly not one to lie about something like that), was at least "confirmed" in 1981 by Brian himself, but even then, we all know how much Brian would either avoid the question or simply give an off the cuff answer as far as Smile was concerned, owing to him just not wanting to stay on the topic. So Peter could certainly be believed but even then he's going on Brian's word. There was all the talk of a "Barnyard suite" and the links between Heroes and Villains, Do You Like Worms, Vega-Tables, and The Old Master Painter, but it's really hard to pinpoint if those were just ideas or the intention. There is a test edit of the master take of The Old Master Painter, minus vocals, spliced with the "false Barnyard" fade from the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains, but in recent times it's come out that said fade on the Cantina version was not in the original February 1967 edit, and was tacked on during the reissue program in 1989-90. It could make sense in the context of Heroes and Villains being about the Old West, and how the so-called "tape explosion" in the Cantina version before the fade could be equivical to something being "burned" as was very common in the fantasy ideal of the Old West, the movies and all of that. All conjecture.

This is basically my long-winded, fan geek way of saying, well, I got nothing, man. 

Great thread, though.

[Cam Mott]

There is a test edit of the master take of The Old Master Painter, minus vocals, spliced with the "false Barnyard" fade from the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains, but in recent times it's come out that said fade on the Cantina version was not in the original February 1967 edit, and was tacked on during the reissue program in 1989-90.

I've never heard this, more details please.

[Jason]

I forget which one of our fellow kidney stone-suffering brainiacs confirmed that bit about the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains...I remember reading about it a few months back. That's pretty much all of the information I have.

As far as said test edit of The Old Master Painter, it's unbootlegged.

[runnersdialzero]

As far as said test edit of The Old Master Painter, it's unbootlegged.

And that's your fault, basically.

[Jason]

It's not my fault if I don't have it in the first place.

Seriously though, it DOES circulate via the fan community but it's not considered an "official boot" (lawlz) and the birdies who let it (along with a good six hours of other stuff, Smile and otherwise) fly came dangerously close to being buttfucked by the powers that be. It's on the Secret Smile set. Look for it.

[Cam Mott]

I'm pretty certain that fade was recorded for OMP, so now that H&V edit is not from 1967? Hmmm.

Still leaves all of H&V Part 2 as album track samples re-jiggered to an H&V theme for a single. So the album was not coming from H&V but H&V was coming from the album, you know, presumably.

[Jason]

According to say kidney stone-suffering brainiac (or is it Brianiac?), the Cantina version, up until the "tape explosion" is Brian's edit. The "false Barnyard" was tacked on later, not by Brian.