Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, or Fire?

[Andrew G. Doe]

[oops]

[Andrew G. Doe]

"The Elements" - four part suite

The Elements - earth, fire, water air... four of 'em.

Rocket science it ain't. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Question...Andrew, what's your take on the Earth/Air controversy?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Question...Andrew, what's your take on the Earth/Air controversy?

Same as it's always been: "Fall Breaks..." evolved from "Earth"... and "Country Air" evolved from "Air". My evidence for this ?  None whatsoever - just a hunch. 

[runnersdialzero]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

[Meade]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

I always just figured that. And if you ask me, the opening melody and bass piano in "Country Air" sounds like yet another Specter-inspired opening beat...  "ba-doom, bang bang... ba-doom, bang bang..."

[Chris Brown]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

It does indeed...as much as I hate to disagree with AGD, it's always seemed pretty clear to me that there was a link between "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "Fall Breaks."  Not that I have any evidence for this either, but others have suggested (and I agree) that "Fall Breaks" was Brian's "candle" version of "Fire." 

[armona]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

It does indeed...as much as I hate to disagree with AGD, it's always seemed pretty clear to me that there was a link between "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "Fall Breaks."  Not that I have any evidence for this either, but others have suggested (and I agree) that "Fall Breaks" was Brian's "candle" version of "Fire."  

With a bit of humor thrown in as well, perhaps.

[Dunderhead]

I've never understood any of the arguments that Fall Breaks is earth.  I've always heard it as fire.

[OneEar/OneEye]

What about I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Work Shop) being the Earth segment?  At least originally when it was intended as the "rebuilding after the fire", before it was attached to I'm In Great Shape?   I've always used that bit after Mr's O'Leary's Cow because it just seems like the right thing, and to me it works as a representation of Earth.   With IIGS I always tend to use Barnyard (cos it goes so well with those lines about jumping in the "pigpen" and all that).   
Air is a puzzler though - could be the Wind Chimes tag, or Wind Chimes as a whole I guess, could be another piano piece that either never really got recorded or is lost (yet to be found?)
Then again, re: the Earth section - how about Swedish frog?- oops, I mean Swedish For Water (I like Swedish Frog better though, it's funnier!  )

[XY]

But in april there was an article (reprinted in LLVS) about Smile and it reported that the album was close to  finished except that brian was having problems with one track, The Elements, a four part suite.

then he records Dada - coincidence, or was he trying to finish this track he said he was having problems with?

And there are several press reports at the time confirming Brian was planning the track as a four part "suite" - much as we'd like to think it was just two, Fire and Water (since we have Smile era tracks to correspond to those two parts).

There's no doubt in my mind that Dada was part of The Elements, since he recorded it as Water and the little known Air/Birds/Wind-version.
I think one Dada-session isn't even available on boots. The airy piano-piece Brian once talked about could be "All Day".

[Dunderhead]

Water and the little known Air/Birds/Wind-version.

What is this? I've never heard of it.

[LostArt]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

It does indeed...as much as I hate to disagree with AGD, it's always seemed pretty clear to me that there was a link between "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "Fall Breaks."  Not that I have any evidence for this either, but others have suggested (and I agree) that "Fall Breaks" was Brian's "candle" version of "Fire." 

Actually, the bass lines of the two songs are not similar at all.  The vocal part of Fall Breaks is similar to the bass line of Fire.

[Winston Wrong]

Water and the little known Air/Birds/Wind-version.

What is this? I've never heard of it.

The "Birds" is refering to an early (??) version of Da Da / All Day featurning bird sounds - imitatated by a flute perhaps?

It's on Secret SMiLE..

[The Shift]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

Nothing wrong with that -  Heroes and Worms share plenty of musical themes, so why shouldn't other tracks? Makes sense, even, for conceptually linked Elements tracks to share some unifying, erm, elements.

[P.J.]

I agree that "I Love To Sa Da Da" was recorded so late in the process that it's use as the "Water" section is very ify. I am one that believes that "The Elements" as a suite would have included tracks that Brian really worked hard on, my theory being...

The Elements
a. Vega-Tables (Earth)
b. Wind Chimes (Air)
c. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire)
d. Surf's Up (Water)

The problem with this is that the whole Elements section would be about 10 min in length. "Good Vibrations" I'm sure would have been the lead track to Side 2 but... what would have filled in the rest (making at least an 18 to 20 min side length)? Link tracks like "Water Chant"? Certainly not "Holidays". That track was scrapped a long time ago. Perhaps "You're Welcome"? I don' know.

Side 1 also complicates matters. I'm one that believes that "Do You Like Worms?" was scrapped. It leaves the album with much material missing to fill up the album... an unfinished album indeed.

[runnersdialzero]

I agree that "I Love To Sa Da Da" was recorded so late in the process that it's use as the "Water" section is very ify. I am one that believes that "The Elements" as a suite would have included tracks that Brian really worked hard on, my theory being...

The Elements
a. Vega-Tables (Earth)
b. Wind Chimes (Air)
c. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire)
d. Surf's Up (Water)

The problem with this is that the whole Elements section would be about 10 min in length. "Good Vibrations" I'm sure would have been the lead track to Side 2 but... what would have filled in the rest (making at least an 18 to 20 min side length)? Link tracks like "Water Chant"? Certainly not "Holidays". That track was scrapped a long time ago. Perhaps "You're Welcome"? I don' know.

Side 1 also complicates matters. I'm one that believes that "Do You Like Worms?" was scrapped. It leaves the album with much material missing to fill up the album... an unfinished album indeed.

"Surf's Up" as the water element? It has nothing to do with water aside from one word of its title.

Just the same, I don't see how it's fair to outright say something was scrapped - Smile was something that was constantly moving and changing, there's no real way to tell what could have been.

The holes in information with Smile are outright frustrating - I'm betting a whole lot of the stuff we go back and forth about all day long on these boards is documented somewhere.

[P.J.]

Besides the fact that "Da Da" evolved into "Cool Cool Water", it has just as much connection to the water element as "Surf's Up".

And as for "Worms", since the "Bicycle Rider" chorus was transferred to "H&V" I don't see Brian "sticking" a new chorus theme in there. Maybe he would have totally reformed the track but as for those verse/bridge recordings I feel Brian just let it go... well, I guess that could be said for all of the early Smile stuff so... not much of an argument.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

It does indeed...as much as I hate to disagree with AGD, it's always seemed pretty clear to me that there was a link between "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "Fall Breaks."  Not that I have any evidence for this either, but others have suggested (and I agree) that "Fall Breaks" was Brian's "candle" version of "Fire." 

What's to say "Earth" & "Fire" didn't share a common structure ? 

And yes, first time I heard "Fire" (jeez, how many years ago ?) the similarity to "Fall Breaks..." hit me right between the ears. (Which, btw, is why I don't believe for a single second that Darian didn't twig the link until Brian sang "FB..." over "Fire").

[Andrew G. Doe]

What about I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Work Shop) being the Earth segment?  At least originally when it was intended as the "rebuilding after the fire", before it was attached to I'm In Great Shape?   

Er... the sole source for that statement is one Carol Kaye. Wouldn't be the first time she'd got her recollections arse about face. James Jamerson, anyone ? 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Can you imagine if her & Brian wrote a book together? The lawsuits resulting would make even Mike Love gasp in horror.

[buddhahat]

What about I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Work Shop) being the Earth segment?  At least originally when it was intended as the "rebuilding after the fire", before it was attached to I'm In Great Shape?   

Er... the sole source for that statement is one Carol Kaye. Wouldn't be the first time she'd got her recollections arse about face. James Jamerson, anyone ? 

I'm sure you're in a better position to doubt her than I am, but I have to say this theory of Fire + IWBA/Workshop always rang true for me. They just fit so well together: The way the big drum at the end of fire is echoed in the gentle snare in IWBA; The brilliant shift in tone from high drama to lounge music, the concept of 'rebuilding after the fire' etc. It is a brilliant pairing. It seems a strange mistake to make - It's one thing to say you played on Light My Fire when you weren't near the session, but to connect two smile tracks that actually work so well together (and also, don't the respective times of the 2 tracks add up to a time slated for Fire on one of the contract sheets or something?) If she was misremembering and the tracks had nothing audibly to do with one another, then fair enough - but these actually work together suspiciously well imo.

[Bicyclerider]

The bass line in Fall Breaks is identical to "Bag of Tricks," the "Heroes and Villain intro" like piece recorded on Jan 3rd 67.  It is reminiscent of (similar to) but not the same as Fire's bass line.

Carol Kaye has recollected that IWBA/FN was "rebuilding after the fire" BUT I've never read that she claims Brian SAID it was rebuilding after the fire.  It's not surprising that she might have gotten that impression because she was in the Fire session and then the IWBA session the very next day, with all the woodshop sound effects.  I'm thinking she came to this conclusion on her own because of the proximity of the two sessions - again, understandable but not necessarily reflecting anything Brian was thinking.

[OneEar/OneEye]

What about I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Work Shop) being the Earth segment?  At least originally when it was intended as the "rebuilding after the fire", before it was attached to I'm In Great Shape?   

Er... the sole source for that statement is one Carol Kaye. Wouldn't be the first time she'd got her recollections arse about face. James Jamerson, anyone ? 

I'm sure you're in a better position to doubt her than I am, but I have to say this theory of Fire + IWBA/Workshop always rang true for me. They just fit so well together: The way the big drum at the end of fire is echoed in the gentle snare in IWBA; The brilliant shift in tone from high drama to lounge music, the concept of 'rebuilding after the fire' etc. It is a brilliant pairing. It seems a strange mistake to make - It's one thing to say you played on Light My Fire when you weren't near the session, but to connect two smile tracks that actually work so well together (and also, don't the respective times of the 2 tracks add up to a time slated for Fire on one of the contract sheets or something?) If she was misremembering and the tracks had nothing audibly to do with one another, then fair enough - but these actually work together suspiciously well imo.

Yeah, what he said!   

[Sheriff John Stone]

It seems that Carol Kaye has a thing with songs that have "Fire" in it.

I have a question for you guys that follow "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" with "Workshop", rebuilding the barn. Where do you put the water? Don't you have to put the fire out before you start rebuilding? Or, do you go "Mrs' O'Leary's Cow" then "Water Chant" then "Workshop"? Also, where do you place "I Love To Say Dada"?