Weezers Pinkerton

[andy]

Musical progression is simply NOT MAKING THE SAME MUSIC!

Is it really that simple? I mean, if I go sing one continuous note for 20 minutes, is that a progression? Because I haven't made it before?

[Boxer Monkey]

to espouse the hackneyed party line on Weezer

What is the party line?

Duh: That everything since "Pinkerton" has sucked.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Duh: That everything since "Pinkerton" has sucked.

Except I like the Green album, and especially the Green album B-sides.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

What the foda? How can you even qualify something like that? Like, every band should be the Beatles or the Beach Boys instead of the Ramones, who tinkered nary at all with what made them great and accordingly remained so? (Gawd, I *CANNOT TAKE* such narrow-minded, "canonical" horsemerda!)

I'm lost.  I honestly don't understand why you're so mad here, or what you mean in that post.

[andy]

This is the SAME EXACT dancing around the topic that happened with BWPS.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Musical progression is simply NOT MAKING THE SAME MUSIC!

Does that mean that by default a new recording is a progression?

[I. Spaceman]

Musical progression is simply NOT MAKING THE SAME MUSIC!

Does that mean that by default a new recording is a progression?

No.
If you make the same record over and over, that's not a progression.
If you move on and do different things, as Rivers has done, that's a musical progression.
You can NOT LIKE the direction of the progression (which can also be a regression) but if it's different stuff, it's progression.

[Boxer Monkey]

What the foda? How can you even qualify something like that? Like, every band should be the Beatles or the Beach Boys instead of the Ramones, who tinkered nary at all with what made them great and accordingly remained so? (Gawd, I *CANNOT TAKE* such narrow-minded, "canonical" horsemerda!)

I'm lost.  I honestly don't understand why you're so mad here, or what you mean in that post.

That wasn't transparent enough? Must you have EVERYthing **EXPLAINED** to you?

[andy]

stalling....

[Chris D.]

stalling....

Which one? 

[andy]

Everyone.. this will obviously never get back to musical discussion.

[I. Spaceman]

I am saying there's a progression that does not need to be explained, Boxer is saying who the foda cares if there's a progression.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

If you move on and do different things, as Rivers has done, that's a musical progression.

But I'm asking, what has he done differently musically?  He's using the same basic instrumentation, the same song structure, the same basic production now as he has for the last three albums.  It's been three straight albums of guitar power chords panned hard left and right,  bass, standard drums, (with some nice exceptions on Make Believe, but too minimal to contribute to the overall character of the album), and ABABAB song structure with no contrasting sections.

Make Believe hints at progression at times, as I mentioned parenthetically above.  The piano could have contributed more, but just when Rivers could open up the sound to something more vulnerable, he brings in the standard guitar attack.  Haunt You Every Day was written as just a piano song, and had it stayed that way, it would have been a unique song in the Weezer catalog, but it gets glossed over by the radio-friendly big guitars.

Perfect Situation is, in my view, Rivers' best melody on record since the Green Album.  The piano during the verse hints at some new textures, but again it's blown away by the guitars.

It's enough to keep me around for the next record.  But that's it.  It's not enough a departure that I'd choose to listen to it over the Blue Album.  And it's not intricate enough that I feel like listening to it carefully to uncover hidden layers.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I am saying there's a progression that does not need to be explained

I'd like it to be explained.  Nothing needs to be explained, but some people like explanation.

Boxer is saying who the foda cares if there's a progression.

I do.  I don't mind if you don't, but I feel I'm allowed to care.

[Boxer Monkey]

Boxer is saying who the foda cares if there's a progression.

More like the very nature of progression is so subjective that it's impossible to qualify it. MUSICALLY, the White Album could be seen as a step backward from "Sgt. Pepper" but then why is it so compelling (or more so, at least to me)? Like everything has to be more ornate or more complicated or just more! more! more! People mistake this for progress, apparently. Like if Rivers Cuomo subverts a chord progression in the middle part of one of his songs, that's genius, but if he "merely" voices a plain truth accompanied by a simple melody, it's a washout. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the General Motors School of Songwriting. Innovation is not all about technique.

[I. Spaceman]

If you move on and do different things, as Rivers has done, that's a musical progression.

But I'm asking, what has he done differently musically?  He's using the same basic instrumentation, the same song structure, the same basic production now as he has for the last three albums.  It's been three straight albums of guitar power chords panned hard left and right,  bass, standard drums, (with some nice exceptions on Make Believe, but too minimal to contribute to the overall character of the album), and ABABAB song structure with no contrasting sections.

Make Believe hints at progression at times, as I mentioned parenthetically above.  The piano could have contributed more, but just when Rivers could open up the sound to something more vulnerable, he brings in the standard guitar attack.  Haunt You Every Day was written as just a piano song, and had it stayed that way, it would have been a unique song in the Weezer catalog, but it gets glossed over by the radio-friendly big guitars.

Perfect Situation is, in my view, Rivers' best melody on record since the Green Album.  The piano during the verse hints at some new textures, but again it's blown away by the guitars.

It's enough to keep me around for the next record.  But that's it.  It's not enough a departure that I'd choose to listen to it over the Blue Album.  And it's not intricate enough that I feel like listening to it carefully to uncover hidden layers.

VERY fair analysis. To MY untrained ears, the new one sounds different to Maladroit, and that one did to Green. But that's just me. If you don't hear progression, that's cool.
But you must still contend with Boxer's assertion.
WHY must there be a progression?

Are Wild Honey and Friends progressions in a musical sense, from the true progressivism of PS/SMiLE/SMiLEY?

[Boxer Monkey]

Some people like explanation.

Dang, man, do you know anybody like that?  

But you must still contend with Boxer's assertion.
WHY must there be a progression?

And, speaking of explanations, I could be all for "progression in music" if somebody could just EXPLAIN to me exactly what that is.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

MUSICALLY, the White Album could be seen as a step backward from "Sgt. Pepper" but then why is it so compelling (or more so, at least to me)?

A step, in any direction, is a step.  Backwards or forwards.  I doubt science will ever figure out why certain people are compelled by certain pieces of art.  Fascinting subject.

Like everything has to be more ornate or more complicated or just more! more! more!

Nobody on this thread has suggested that.

Like if Rivers Cuomo subverts a chord progression in the middle part of one of his songs, that's genius, but if he "merely" voices a plain truth accompanied by a simple melody, it's a washout. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the General Motors School of Songwriting. Innovation is not all about technique.

I agree, but what is innovative about Make Believe?

[I. Spaceman]

Like if Rivers Cuomo subverts a chord progression in the middle part of one of his songs, that's genius, but if he "merely" voices a plain truth accompanied by a simple melody, it's a washout. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the General Motors School of Songwriting. Innovation is not all about technique.

Word.
Did anyone CARE if the Cars progressed?
Well, apply that lesson. We have no Dylans and Lennons, so we are by default making our Rivers Cuomos and Noel Gallaghers into them. The suit don't fit.
But that's another dialogue.

[I. Spaceman]

Quote
Like if Rivers Cuomo subverts a chord progression in the middle part of one of his songs, that's genius, but if he "merely" voices a plain truth accompanied by a simple melody, it's a washout. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the General Motors School of Songwriting. Innovation is not all about technique.

I agree, but what is innovative about Make Believe?

He's not saying it's innovative, he's questioning your reasons for declaring it uninnovative.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

WHY must there be a progression?

There doesn't need to be a progression.  I'm not the person who brought that word into this discussion.  Others suggested that Weezer was progressing and leaving bitter Pinkerton fans behind.

That said, progression to me indicates a restlessness, which I find attractive.  As a person who is nver really happy with what I'm doing, I feel inspired by those who are able to explore something to a good extent then move on to try something else.  Plus, I like to hear new sounds...but I'm also very partial to certain bands.  I'd probably rather listen to the Beach Boys trying to do a Ska album than buy a Madness record or something.

In Weezer's case, it's pretty simple.  Rivers was starting to go in a direction that I really liked musically, but then all of a sudden it was like going back to square one.  I wouldn't care so much about progression if I hadn't witnessed such a compelling progression initially.

Are Wild Honey and Friends progressions in a musical sense, from the true progressivism of PS/SMiLE/SMiLEY?

Absolutely.  For one, look at the instrumentation.  Pet Sounds was the classic Spector line-up augmented with Wilsonizers.  Smile started to lose the horn sections and multiple guitars, and turned to more percussion, strings, a sparser sound.  Smiley took that even farther and is organ dominated.  WH is bass and piano heavy with a lot of shouty vocals.  Friends kind of synthesizes the previous 3 years, with a lot of organ, detuned piano, and tight vocals, but adds a lot of upright bass, laid-back Jim Gordon drumming, and acoustic guitar.

Song structure wise, there was a progression as well, from the classic strophes of Pet Sounds to the almost modal vamps of Smile to the simplicity of Smiley and WH, then back to a more classic song feel on Friends.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

He's not saying it's innovative, he's questioning your reasons for declaring it uninnovative.

I've mentioned them repeatedly. 

Instrumentation

Green Album:  Guitars panned hard left and right playing power chords throughout (except Island), bass, drums, vocal harmony at the third.

Maladroit:  Guitars panned hard left and right playing power chords throughout (except Burdnt Jamb), bass, drums, vocal harmony at the third.

Make Believe:  Guitars panned hard left and right playing power chords throughout (except for Perfect Situation initially and HYED where there's some tantalizingly inconsequential piano), bass, drums, vocal harmony at the third.

Songs

Green:  ABABABA
Maladroit:  ABABABA
Make Believe: ABABABA

[I. Spaceman]

Well, OK! 

[Boxer Monkey]

There doesn't need to be a progression.  I'm not the person who brought that word into this discussion. 

Hold up: If there doesn't have to be a progression, as you concur, then why are you continuing to argue so stringently that there hasn't been one, as if it should still matter?

... then back to a more classic song feel on Friends.

That's not "back to square one"?

[Boxer Monkey]

Songs

Green:  ABABABA
Maladroit:  ABABABA
Make Believe: ABABABA

Wow ... so it's ROCK MUSIC, then? (Who woulda thunk it?)