BWPS - The Final Verdict

[The Heartical Don]

(Guys and girls - this is a truly remarkable discussion. When I started the thread I half expected a couple of references to our 'reviews and ratings' section - that did not happen. Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful and informative contributions so far; and may the debate continue!)

[The Shift]

which of course brings us to perhaps the most bone chilling quote in the history of al jardine; on hearing the boxset version... "that's not 'do you like worms!'

I can't remember where i heard that...

Yeah, I've referenced that quote before - it seems to imply that possibly Holidays is the real Worms, considering how BWPS had the "rock, rock, roll Plymouth rock" refrain, but who knows?

At this rate, considering how much Brian most likely forgot, I'm quite inclined to take Al's comment as having some ground to it.

Somebody has to write a book, compiling all of the interviews/articles concerning the recording of BWPS - so I can reference IT - instead of relying on my memory of the various interviews I read six years ago. Anyway, here goes - again...

I thought I read that the "rock, rock, roll Plymouth Rock roll over" on the BWPS "On A Holiday" was an idea that was added in 2004.

If the song "Do You Like Worms" on the boxed set isn't "Do You Like Worms", and is another song, then what song IS "Do You Like Worms" from the boxed set? Why has nobody else - and there were/are many who heard the track - come forward with this claim? Al Jardine, the "normal" Beach Boy, strikes again!

If I remember right, then I remember reading that Al's comment came when David Leaf played him the track in preparation for the GVs30Ys box set. Al said it wasn't Worms, David said something to the extent that that was what it said on the tape box. Al insisted, David insisted otherwise.

It's a shame David doesn't seem to post here (unless he does so under a pseudonym) as he'd be able to contribute very directly and usefully to this.

[Bean Bag]

I agree, Don -- discussion excellente! This discussion is getting to the "nut" of the whole SMiLE puzzle to me.  And for me...Do You Likie Worms is that nut -- nut numero uno to be cracked.  Solve it...you solve SMiLE (yeah right!)

 

okay...Al's comment is blowing my mind right now.  I'm inclined to believe what BJL surmised Al's comment really meant:  "DYLW is not an entirely different track than what showed up on the GV Box -- but just a severely stripped down 'concept/demo' perhaps."  But who knows. Either way...that's a pretty substantial comment -- given what eventually showed up on BWPS isn't all that much different.

To my List of Demands of a future SMiLE box...I think we'll now need:  A DVD (Blu-ray??) of Interviews galore....and not the fawning shiiet, but...real interviews of all hangers on, band members, et al -- I want to know what they heard, what they thought was what.  When the truth needs to be heard...everyone, no matter how 'incorrect', should be interviewed and heard.  Let the people decide!!

[A Million Units In Jan!]

It's funny how much the idea of SMiLE in general (for me, at least) has changed through the years. At first, it was a simple story; Brian, during his creative peak, was trying to put together the Greatest Album ever made. He recorded (according to David Anderle) enough material to fill three (!) albums worth. The music was so amazing that people couldn't believe what they were hearing. Brian was a dominant force, in control, ready to take on the World. Then Mike Love came home from tour, and complained so much that Brian, with head down and tears in his eyes, trudged to the vaults with all of his tapes and locked them away. Then he went up to his room and began his descent into the depths of schizophrenia, drugs and an endless intake of food.
And now? Well, there are shreds of truth in the above paragraph, (and I've soured quite a bit on Mike Love being the biggest problem)  but there is so much more that we probably haven't even thought about. I always felt like, the more we actually learn about SMiLE, the less we know, if that makes any sense. Just when you thought you had most of the original tapes figured out, BWPS came along, with sections of new music (which actually could have been original music that was lost or recorded over-who knows?) and new lyrics, and we start wondering again just how well we knew the original in the first place. And that, to me, is the greatest thing about SMiLE, old or new. You just never know.

[The Heartical Don]

It's funny how much the idea of SMiLE in general (for me, at least) has changed through the years. At first, it was a simple story; Brian, during his creative peak, was trying to put together the Greatest Album ever made. He recorded (according to David Anderle) enough material to fill three (!) albums worth. The music was so amazing that people couldn't believe what they were hearing. Brian was a dominant force, in control, ready to take on the World. Then Mike Love came home from tour, and complained so much that Brian, with head down and tears in his eyes, trudged to the vaults with all of his tapes and locked them away. Then he went up to his room and began his descent into the depths of schizophrenia, drugs and an endless intake of food.
And now? Well, there are shreds of truth in the above paragraph, (and I've soured quite a bit on Mike Love being the biggest problem)  but there is so much more that we probably haven't even thought about. I always felt like, the more we actually learn about SMiLE, the less we know, if that makes any sense. Just when you thought you had most of the original tapes figured out, BWPS came along, with sections of new music (which actually could have been original music that was lost or recorded over-who knows?) and new lyrics, and we start wondering again just how well we knew the original in the first place. And that, to me, is the greatest thing about SMiLE, old or new. You just never know.

Well said that man. It's a general problem in writing history: it's always sort of a simplification of reality. Reality is so complex that it can never be grasped in full, let alone that there can be found a person who, from a 100% objective perspective, was witness to everything that happened. Presumably the real SMiLE story contains just as many, many boring, mundane, accidental, inconsistent, unexpected, long-winded, and plain silly events and non-events as every other real story does. Some say the fall of the Berlin wall was a merit of Ronald Reagan, and built the whole a posteriori reconstruction around that particular conviction; whilst others will tell you that Michael Gorbachev was the most insightful and peaceful politician that ever graced the USSR, and he is the real man behind what happened in 1989. Yet, a third party makes a great case for Guenther Schabowski, that man from the Eastern-Germany Party SED, who mistakenly interpreted a tiny note from the Party as stating that every DDR citizen was now (Nov 9, 1989, around 7 PM) free to cross the border and drive or walk into West-Germany - which meant: history was being made by him, by accident. Prosaic, but perhaps very true.

In the SMiLE case, we have all the ingredients for a hugely Romantic epic: the supertalented, young, and seemingly very self-assured Brian Wilson taking pop into new dimensions, as if by the drop of a hat. Having just finished Pet Sounds, that milestone, he began to tackle an entirely different project, together with the equally talented Van Dyke Parks, master lyricist. Good Vibrations seemed to augur extremely well for the guys.

And then there was a free fall. The master plan collapsed. Fragments promised everything, but the whole never came to fruition. There were conflicting reports; and there were few consistent constants, like Mike Love voicing his opposition to some of the work, and the drug taking that hampered the sustained effort required to finish any ambitious project.

Thus, the simple story that Million Units presents was made up. Made up, because with time one realizes that it was a story that we somehow wanted and liked. It's a story that's fit for telling to our friends and acquaintances; to pump up the myth surrounding our heroes a bit. It's also a story that is a perfect antidote to the objections made by every nitwit who thinks the Beach Boys were the Waltons of pop, singing the same song about surfing endlessly, never varying on the theme. In short, we had a perfect weapon: an LP that, everone was convinced, was a Masterpiece of Pop Art, never to be equalled... and we didn't even have to engage in lengthy discussions, because that weapon had a unique advantage: it did not exist, or, better still, it was a Work In Progress with an unspecified release date.

I for one am happy that with passing years new information keeps trickling in... I don't mind conflicting stories, and loose ends. Somehow it's good that the simple story is being deconstructed as we speak.

[LostArt]

This thread has brought up some great discussion.  For those of us here that had heard all of the available original material before hearing BWPS, do you remember the buzz on that night of the premier in London?  I was sitting at my computer waiting for the word from folks who were at the show...and the reports starting coming in about sequence and new bits and it was all so exciting.  Then the audience recordings started to show up here and there.  By the time the CD was released, I had heard several different performances, and I bought the CD on the day it was released.  I was lucky enough to go to one of the performances just days after that.  That concert remains one of the best that I have seen in my 53 years. 

Now, here we are, more than 5 years later, still talking about this thing.  We have read the Vosse article, heard Al Jardine say that Worms wasn't Worms, learned of unheard-for-years acetates owned by Al Jardine, Bruce Johnston, Durrie Parks. 

For me, who loved BWPS when it came out, I find myself with as many questions about the '66-'67 sessions as ever.  Was there a link between Worms and Holidays?  What was recorded vocally for Look?  And what about the Great Shape/Barnyard Heroes.  And what the hell was Child Is Father Of The Man about, and who has Van Dyke's original lyric sheet?  What about the "disconnected phone cords" lyrics to Cabinessence?  Man, that Vosse article alone raises some serious questions...Who Ran The Iron Horse or Home On The Range not in Cabinessence?  That Wind Chimes thing he talks about sounds incredible.  Someone, somewhere has got to have recordings of some of this stuff.  And we need to hear it.  In as good sound quality as is possible. 

I don't listen to BWPS as much these days.  I still like it, and appreciate it for what it is.  But what it isn't, is Smile.           

[Dr. Tim]

I must say this thread is far more elevated and balanced than my earlier snark would have had folks believe would occur.  I was recalling the last BWPS thread which was Hater City.   And that conclusion is OK but then I feared the old urban legends would take over - it's a fraud, it's a fanmix, it was assembled by the House Un-American Activities Committee, Phil Spector re-produced it a la "Let It Be" whilst cleaning his gun collection, the Tri-Lateral Commission added the hum-be-dums to GV, Brian was really Jeff Dunham's Peanut puppet, with Darian or Melinda or Jeff or Snooki mouthing his "commands" - and that made-up stuff makes me crazy.  Fortunately not this time, and the real information was readily at hand.

So - some folks don't dig it.  OK.  Those who don't like it gave their reasons.  Some like the live version best, a view which I respect and on certain days agree with.

It took the finished BWPS to make me go back and study the old Smile sessions in detail.  I'd heard the boots before but, lacking any context, they sounded like neat sound bites but no more.  So I listened once and filed them away - until 2004.  That's when I joined this group to learn more.  And I will be the first to say the old Smile sessions are a "must" for anyone who is a fan of BWPS, to see how close it got to completion, yet see how much more work remained.

That said, as Million Units, Don and LostArt put it, the Smile story is a riddle wrapped in an enigma, unknowable at its core, like a zen koan.  The more we learn the more mysterious it gets.

[Cam Mott]

Group hug!

[The Heartical Don]

Group hug!

  yes! We're all rediscovering the real me we used to be...

[Bean Bag]

Vosse article?

This I have not read...

[Jason]

Group hug!

Now we're taking it a little far. 

[Steve Mayo]

Vosse article?

This I have not read...

try this   http://beachboys.freecp.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=587

[The Heartical Don]

Is there any known comment by Mike Love on BWPS?

[The Heartical Don]

Vosse article?

This I have not read...

try this   http://beachboys.freecp.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=587

Thanks Steve!  I didn't know this one... and I read German! It's located in Switzerland.

Another day, another lovely site...

[Synth Wash]

Do You Like Worms is a great title.  The song is all about digging into the past and uncovering the "worms" of manifest destiny.   I think in 66/67 it would have remained the title.  As well, I think Da Da would have retained that title, especially as it, like Mr's O'Leary's Cow, wasn't an actual listed title, but part of The Elements. 
I would agree though that Look/I Ran could have been simply place holding titles.

Interesting idea Paul. If you roll over a rock, you're likely to dig a few worms.

[OneEar/OneEye]

Do You Like Worms is a great title.  The song is all about digging into the past and uncovering the "worms" of manifest destiny.   I think in 66/67 it would have remained the title.  As well, I think Da Da would have retained that title, especially as it, like Mr's O'Leary's Cow, wasn't an actual listed title, but part of The Elements. 
I would agree though that Look/I Ran could have been simply place holding titles.

Interesting idea Paul. If you roll over a rock, you're likely to dig a few worms.

Exactly.  That's what I always took the title to mean.   

[The Heartical Don]

Do You Like Worms is a great title.  The song is all about digging into the past and uncovering the "worms" of manifest destiny.   I think in 66/67 it would have remained the title.  As well, I think Da Da would have retained that title, especially as it, like Mr's O'Leary's Cow, wasn't an actual listed title, but part of The Elements. 
I would agree though that Look/I Ran could have been simply place holding titles.

Interesting idea Paul. If you roll over a rock, you're likely to dig a few worms.

Exactly.  That's what I always took the title to mean.   

  I never realized this. It makes perfect sense... is my sense for the poetic unravelling? Help...

[Bean Bag]

I'll always be hung up on the 12 track list...since covers were printed.  It's the only track information available that has any officialness associated with.  Everything else is just...whatever, right?

Was it common to have Brian change tracks lists up on Capitol back then -- after covers were made?!?  Did Brian have them print Hang On To Your Ego?  Unless Capitol simply jumped the gun, there has to be some validity to these titles...

Do You Like Worms
Wind Chimes
Heroes and Villains
Surf's Up
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
I'm in Great Shape
Child is Father of the Man
The Elements
Vega-tables
(The Old Master Painter)

I know this is soooo dead horse....but isn't everything?   

[The Heartical Don]

I'll always be hung up on the 12 track list...since covers were printed.  It's the only track information available that has any officialness associated with.  Everything else is just...whatever, right?

Was it common to have Brian change tracks lists up on Capitol back then -- after covers were made?!?  Did Brian have them print Hang On To Your Ego?  Unless Capitol simply jumped the gun, there has to be some validity to these titles...

Do You Like Worms
Wind Chimes
Heroes and Villains
Surf's Up
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
I'm in Great Shape
Child is Father of the Man
The Elements
Vega-tables
(The Old Master Painter)

I know this is soooo dead horse....but isn't everything?   

...but not in that order, right? I can see no aesthetic logic in that particular sequence...

[Synth Wash]

Vosse article?

This I have not read...

try this   http://beachboys.freecp.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=587

Brian had surgery to get hearing back in his deaf ear?

[Mike's Beard]

To me this thread boils down to basically one thing.  Can the listener look past what BWPS isn't and enjoy it for what is is?  Because to me it's not Smile and any conception to be accepted as so was DOOMED from the start.  This may be overstating the obvious but cancelling Smile was THE BIGGEST MISTAKE in the history of modern music. It's impossible to know just who ultimately to lay the blame with as none of us were there and even the people that were can't seem to get their story straight. The myth of Smile is just as exciting as the music in my view.  You are listening to an amazing piece of music and for all you know, sitting on a shelf gathering dust in Capital's vaults somewhere is something even better. That's just mind blowing!

[The Heartical Don]

To me this thread boils down to basically 1 thing.  Can the listener look past what BWPS isn't and enjoy it for what is is?  Because to me it's not Smile and any conception to be accepted as so was DOOMED from the start.  This may be overstating the obvious but cancelling Smile was THE BIGGEST MISTAKE in the history of modern music. It impossible to know who to lay the blame ultimately with as none of us where there and even the people that were can't seem to get their story straight. The myth of Smile is just as exciting as the music in my view.  You are listening to an amazing piece of music and for all you know, sitting on a shelf gathering dust in Capital's vaults somewhere is something even better. That's just mind blowing!

Good call. To your basic question, I say a great, big YES.

As for the rest: mind blowing? Sure. Vexing? Even more so. Can't we clone Brian so that his monozygotic twin brother will be a slavish person who will obey each and every wish of ours?

[TheLazenby]

Brian was still using "I Love To Say Da Da" as recently as the Royal Festival Hall show, because it says so on the teleprompter in "Beautiful Dreamer".  So I assume the lame "On Blue Hawaii" title is Melinda's idea.

You know, if Al didn't agree with the box set version of "Worms", he may be implying that the Beach Boys worked on the vocals.  I got the impression from "Dreamer" that the lyrics existed in advance - unlike "In Blue Hawaii", which Brian and Van Dyke seemed to be writing before the show (particularly the Water Chant lyrics).

[Mike's Beard]

Can Al's memory from this period really be that accurate? Remember he was a total  hardcore pothead at the time, why, I heard one afternoon he had FIVE hit's off a joint.  

[Bean Bag]

...but not in that order, right? I can see no aesthetic logic in that particular sequence...

Right -- but those are/were the "titles" and Capitol made covers assuming those were the titles.  At one point -- that was SMiLE.  Nothing more and nothing less.

To me this thread boils down to basically one thing.  Can the listener look past what BWPS isn't and enjoy it for what it is? ...

Well sort of...to me it boils down to this:  at which point do we want to board?  When the "list" was made? -- Jan 67? -- The last day a "SMiLE" session was held? -- In 2004?

Regarding appreciating BWPS -- absolutely.  As I said in this or another thread -- it's the best SMiLE mix I've heard...especially when using the original music.  (I don't us Pink Chicks...I made my own out of the MONOs...with nothing new inserted.)