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Author Topic: Carl & The Passions "So Tough" / Pet Sounds  (Read 15368 times)
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2010, 07:58:57 PM »

I know Al played all the instruments on "Their Hearts Were Full of Spring"...
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2010, 08:42:02 PM »

Like Adam, I'm also very intrigued by the keyboard work on "So Tough" (and "Holland" as well)...but until someone listens to the session tapes and tells us, all we can do is guess, right?  We all know AFM contracts aren't definitive, but they can at least give us an idea of who was present at a given session.  Unfortunately, the ones for "Surf's Up" and "Holland" are obviously "forged" (meaning, they were hastily written up at a later date simply so some paperwork could be sumbitted), however the ones for the "So Tough" sessions seem to be more "authentic" (meaning, reliable to historians such as Adam, AGD, Ian, and myself).  So, here are the personel on the AFMs for each of this album's songs:

BEATRICE FROM BALTIMORE (later retitled YOU NEED A MESS OF HELP TO STAND ALONE)
Tandyn Almer
Doug Dillard (banjo player)
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Gordon Marron (fiddle player & inventor of the ring modulator)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HERE SHE COME
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

HE COME DOWN
Brian Wilson
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

MARCELLA
Tandyn Almer
Ricky Fataar
Bruce Johnston
Tony Martin, Jr. (steel guitar player)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER
Orville "Red" Rhodes (steel guitar player)
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound

ALL THIS IS THAT
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players

NOTE:  according to the contracts, HERE SHE COMES and HE COME DOWN were cut at the same session, as was the case with HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER and ALL THIS IS THAT, but I left Brian Wilson's name off the above credits for HERE SHE COMES and left Red Rhodes' name off the credits for ALL THIS IS THAT, as there is no aural evidence of them on those specific songs.  I also didn't bother naming all the string & horn players, but I certainly COULD if someone really wanted me to...Smiley

Interesting.  Tandyn Almer was a keyboard player, wasn't he?

Couple of interesting things this gives us.  With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.

Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella."  That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense).  Carl definitely on rhythm guitar.  Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.

No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier.  That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes".  The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.  That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.

Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl. 

"He Come Down" is interesting.  Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian.  Brian on piano.  Ricky on drums.  Blondie on bass.  There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel).  I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point.  The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s.  So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian.  One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...

So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best.  Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele.  That's probably Carl.

"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn.  There are two piano tracks (at least).  The prominent one is definitely Brian.  Ricky on drums obviously.  Who's playing bass?  It's a pretty raw, funky track.  Brian?  Doubtful.  Carl or Billy on bass?  Tough call.  For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know.  I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?  My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars.  No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.

"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.

So apparently Carl WAS playing a lot of guitar on the CATP sessions.  I was all wet on that theory.
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« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2010, 12:34:55 AM »

I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s.  He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.

What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA.  He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85.  On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?

SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls."

Earle Mankey told me a story that on one occasion Al brought a song into Brother Studio and played all the instruments on it (Earle didn't sound that impressed, honestly).  He indicated this was an extremely rare event.  That was probably around '77...

Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?
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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2010, 12:43:29 AM »


Interesting.  Tandyn Almer was a keyboard player, wasn't he?

Couple of interesting things this gives us.  With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.

Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella."  That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense).  Carl definitely on rhythm guitar.  Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.

No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier.  That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes".  The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.  That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.

Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl. 

"He Come Down" is interesting.  Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian.  Brian on piano.  Ricky on drums.  Blondie on bass.  There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel).  I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point.  The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s.  So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian.  One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...

So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best.  Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele.  That's probably Carl.

"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn.  There are two piano tracks (at least).  The prominent one is definitely Brian.  Ricky on drums obviously.  Who's playing bass?  It's a pretty raw, funky track.  Brian?  Doubtful.  Carl or Billy on bass?  Tough call.  For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know.  I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?  My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars.  No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.

"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.

So apparently Carl WAS playing a lot of guitar on the CATP sessions.  I was all wet on that theory.

Great stuff Adam. Surely worthy of inclusion in the "Definitive Instrumental Thread" (if there is such a thing already).
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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2010, 02:16:29 AM »

Great stuff Adam. Surely worthy of inclusion in the "Definitive Instrumental Thread" (if there is such a thing already).

There isn't. But I surely would like to have one! I have very fond memories of those weeks (months?) checking in on, and adding to, the definite vocals thread after work on a daily basis in 2008. Back then I suggested a definitive vocals thread including ALL vocals. But I was overruled, the argument being: "Impossible". I'm amazed by peoples ability to discern musicians by listening to the recordings and I always enjoy comments like "Hold on, I'll just send Alan Jardine an email", or "Why don't we ask Bruce on the BBB"?
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2010, 02:32:32 AM »

Yes thank you very much for posting this info, I love reading this sort of stuff. Anybody else notice that Brian was very busy for an album he apparantly had very little to do with?
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« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2010, 03:56:07 AM »


WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound


CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players


Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl.  


Well, there are two pianos going on in Cuddle Up, and i suspect Make It Good has two as well - I personally was suprised to see Daryl Dragon's name not on these player credits, does that mean he was in the booth whilst Dennis and Carl played the basic pianos? Although Carl on CU's guitar is also a probably a safe bet, that sounds like an overdub to me - Carl would be doing a lot of sitting around on that session.

C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl? And this information is great, count me also pleasantly surprised by Brian's involvement in these tunes.
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« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2010, 04:48:17 AM »


WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound


CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players


Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl.  


Well, there are two pianos going on in Cuddle Up, and i suspect Make It Good has two as well - I personally was suprised to see Daryl Dragon's name not on these player credits, does that mean he was in the booth whilst Dennis and Carl played the basic pianos? Although Carl on CU's guitar is also a probably a safe bet, that sounds like an overdub to me - Carl would be doing a lot of sitting around on that session.

C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl? And this information is great, count me also pleasantly surprised by Brian's involvement in these tunes.


Those are almost certainly overdubs on tracks recorded earlier that DD was on - remember, these two songs originated during the sessions for Dennis' solo album in 1971 ("Cuddle Up" was originally "Old Movie").
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« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2010, 06:49:16 AM »

adamghost:  <<I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s. He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.>>  Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

adamghost:  <<What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA. He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85. On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?>>  Yes, he played banjo on "California Saga".  And a guitar part on "Endless Harmony" from KTSA.  

adamghost:  <<SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls.">>  According to Desper, Carl played both guitars, and Daryl the bass, on "SDT".  According to Bruce, Ed Carter played both guitars on "DG", while he (Bruce) played Moog bass and mandolin.

adamghost:  <<Re: LOVE YOU, I suppose Al might be on "Good Time." Anyone know for sure?>> Not for sure, but I suspect either bass or the 12-string guitar solo-ish line.  That track was reportedly cut at the same session as "Susie".  

adamghost:  <<Couple of interesting things this gives us. With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.>> Unless it's Blondie on an undocumented overdub.  Smiley  I read that following the breakup of The Flame, Blondie returned to South Africa for several months.  He was contacted there by Jack Rieley and asked to join the BBs in Europe when they were there in February for "Gran Gala du Disque" and other appearances.  This would explain his absence from the "Mess Of Help" and "Marcella" tracking sessions, but as I said, he could have still overdubbed parts later.  Although, in the promo clip for "Mess Of Help" shot for the Old Grey Whistle Test, Carl mimes the lead guitar part while Blondie mimes the bass.

adamghost:  <<Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella." That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense). Carl definitely on rhythm guitar. Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.>>  Bruce has said that he only sang on "Marcella", but he said that a good ten years after the fact, so who knows.  I think that Carl could've overdubbed the percussion, as he often did on songs he produced (with Ricky maybe helping him here).  And who played the zither?  

adamghost:  <<No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier. That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes". The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.>> I think there's maybe two rhythm guitar parts on "Here She Comes" (maybe Blondie & Carl), but I'll bet Blondie played bass on the basic track (since it's the dominant "guide" instrument), and his guitars were overdubbed.  

adamghost:  <<That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.>> Carl and Blondie are both noted as playing "1 dbl." at the session for "Hold On Dear Brother"/"All This Is That".  That could be for guitar & bass (Blondie) and acoustic piano & electric piano (Carl), or acoustic piano & guitar (Blondie) and bass & electric piano (Carl)...or any number of possible configuratons.  Or, Ricky (reportedly the main composer of the two Blondie/Ricky tunes on "So Tough") could've played the piano (although there is no "double" listed for him on the AFM).

adamghost:  <<"He Come Down" is interesting. Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian. Brian on piano. Ricky on drums. Blondie on bass. There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel). I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point. The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s. So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian. One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...>>  Well, since this was supposedly cut at the same session as "Here She Comes", perhaps Billy only played on "Here She Comes" (likewise, I'm assuming Brian only played on "He Come Down").

adamghost:  <<So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best. Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele. That's probably Carl.>> Never noticed it, but yes...Carl played uke on "Good Time" and probably "Loop De Loop".    

adamghost:  <<"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn. There are two piano tracks (at least). The prominent one is definitely Brian. Ricky on drums obviously. Who's playing bass? It's a pretty raw, funky track. Brian? Doubtful. Carl or Billy on bass? Tough call. For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know. I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?>> Yes...August '72.

adamghost:  <<My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars. No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.>> I think I can hear organ in the "she don't know" parts.

adamghost:  <<"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.>> Thank God, an easy one!  Smiley

metal flake paint:  <<Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?>> AFM says that one was cut at the "Marcella" session (along with something called "Body Talk"), so supposedly the same lineup.  Then there was a big string & banjo overdub later.  But, isn't the booted version more "demo-ish" than "master-ish"?  

hypehat: <<C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl?>> Twenty-five.  And since metal flake paint IS interested:

Electric bass guitar: Stephens LaFever
Violins: Bonnie Douglas, Assa Drori, Irving Geller, Alfred Lustgarten, Leonard Malarsky, Jay Rosen, Nathan Ross, Sheldon Sanov, Leonard Selic, Spiro Stamos, Dorothy Wade, and Shari Zippert
Violas: Norm Botnick, David Burk, Joseph Reilich, and David Schwartz
Cellos: JoAnn Johannsen, Jan Kelley, Nathan Gershman, and Victor Sazer
Acoustic upright double basses (arco): James D. Hughart, Richard F. Kelley, Sr., and Meyer Rubin
Tympani: Frank Capp

The "Make It Good" horn overdub, led by Dennis at Sunset Sound, included the following:
French horns: Barbara Carlson, Vincent DeRosa, David Duke, and George Hyde
Trumpets: Chuck Findley and Ollie Mitchell
Trombone: Lew McCreary
Bass trombone: Dick "Slyde" Hyde


Andrew G. Doe:  <<Those are almost certainly overdubs on tracks recorded earlier that DD was on - remember, these two songs originated during the sessions for Dennis' solo album in 1971 ("Cuddle Up" was originally "Old Movie").>> Yeah, that would be my guess...Dennis & Daryl played twin grand pianos on the basic session (as they did on "Barbara"), then Carl overdubbed acoustic guitar at the session documented on AFMs...Dennis may not have necessarily played anything on that overdub, but was listed 'cause he was there.  
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« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2010, 10:38:51 AM »

 And who played the zither?  

Shirley Abicair ?  Grin
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« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2010, 11:30:31 AM »


Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.
[/quote]

Well...not exactly... other than a sped up re-release of the '61 version of Surfin'...the first two Beach Boys LP's do not feature Al in any role.
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« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2010, 03:19:44 PM »

Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

You know, c-man, I don't think I've ever gotten involved in discussions like these, but your recent questions to me about my films & photos have made me realize there are quite a few answers regarding who's playing what with various road bands.  Sadly, I have far, far less visual stuff from the studios, although I spent a lot of 'fly on the wall' time on Ivar, (with The Flame), at Bellagio and of course at Brother...  Sure wish I would have filmed & photographed more often than I did during these times...
However, regarding the AFM contracts, it's been so long since I've even looked at one, but they do always list the session contractors name, don't they?  I'm sure there were times when these were kept accurately, but other times I know there were certain adjustments made; someone added to a session to make up double-scale on a session where they didn't get it, or maybe just weren't credited for a session that they were actually there for.  I'm just saying that these contracts weren't always gospel..
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« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2010, 03:27:29 PM »

Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

You know, c-man, I don't think I've ever gotten involved in discussions like these, but your recent questions to me about my films & photos have made me realize there are quite a few answers regarding who's playing what with various road bands.  Sadly, I have far, far less visual stuff from the studios, although I spent a lot of 'fly on the wall' time on Ivar, (with The Flame), at Bellagio and of course at Brother...  Sure wish I would have filmed & photographed more often than I did during these times...
However, regarding the AFM contracts, it's been so long since I've even looked at one, but they do always list the session contractors name, don't they?  I'm sure there were times when these were kept accurately, but other times I know there were certain adjustments made; someone added to a session to make up double-scale on a session where they didn't get it, or maybe just weren't credited for a session that they were actually there for.  I'm just saying that these contracts weren't always gospel..


No argument there !  There are AFM sheets for the Baambrugge Holland sessions dated long after the band were back in the US.  Shocked
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« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2010, 03:57:07 PM »



Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?

Yeah, that's the one.
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adamghost
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« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2010, 04:03:41 PM »

Carl played the uke eh?  I didn't know that, that's just what it sounded like.  Now I feel smart for calling that one!

My gut feeling is it's Bruce on bass on "Marcella."  It just fits, somehow...and he was a much more active bassist in the '71-'72 era than at other times in the band.  Which would, I believe, make that the last Bruce bass appearance anywhere.  Unless of course he was just at the session doing nothing, but if you think about it, if he was there, he'd be the most likely candidate to lay down the bass line.  Everyone else was busy.

Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  It occurred to me later that since a lot of the KTSA sessions were at his house he might have played more than I'd originally thought.  Interestingly, someone just posted a youtube of some Beach Boys concerts in Japan in the early '90s and you can hear Al's guitar louder than Carl's...that's very unusual, and it's kind of cool.  He seems to have been more a part of the band's instrumental sound after the mid '80s (i.e., you could actually hear him sometimes).
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c-man
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« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2010, 09:52:22 PM »

Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  

According to the AFM, Carl played bass, Brian played organ, Bruce played piano, and Dennis played percussion on that one. 
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« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2010, 10:04:48 PM »

Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

You know, c-man, I don't think I've ever gotten involved in discussions like these, but your recent questions to me about my films & photos have made me realize there are quite a few answers regarding who's playing what with various road bands.  Sadly, I have far, far less visual stuff from the studios, although I spent a lot of 'fly on the wall' time on Ivar, (with The Flame), at Bellagio and of course at Brother...  Sure wish I would have filmed & photographed more often than I did during these times...
However, regarding the AFM contracts, it's been so long since I've even looked at one, but they do always list the session contractors name, don't they?  I'm sure there were times when these were kept accurately, but other times I know there were certain adjustments made; someone added to a session to make up double-scale on a session where they didn't get it, or maybe just weren't credited for a session that they were actually there for.  I'm just saying that these contracts weren't always gospel..


Hi Ed...for most Beach Boys sessions in the late '60s/early '70s, the AFM lists Diane Rovell as contractor...sometimes Jon Parks.
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adamghost
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« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »

Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  

According to the AFM, Carl played bass, Brian played organ, Bruce played piano, and Dennis played percussion on that one. 

And Bruce on Rhodes too I assume....Wow.  Really?  So they returned to the late '60s band recording configuration one more time on that one. That's kind of a shocker to me.  I wonder what Bruce's motivation for this was?  And who drummed, then?  I'm surprised it wasn't Dennis, since the drums were so minimal.  Wasn't aware there was true Beach Boys band performance that late in the game.  The last or nearly last one, surely.
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adamghost
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« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2010, 11:14:55 PM »

How much of the band was on "Santa Ana Winds"?  That would be my other guess for most group instrumental performance on the album.
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metal flake paint
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« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2010, 03:08:20 AM »

adamghost:  <<I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s. He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.>>  Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

adamghost:  <<What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA. He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85. On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?>>  Yes, he played banjo on "California Saga".  And a guitar part on "Endless Harmony" from KTSA.  

adamghost:  <<SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls.">>  According to Desper, Carl played both guitars, and Daryl the bass, on "SDT".  According to Bruce, Ed Carter played both guitars on "DG", while he (Bruce) played Moog bass and mandolin.

adamghost:  <<Re: LOVE YOU, I suppose Al might be on "Good Time." Anyone know for sure?>> Not for sure, but I suspect either bass or the 12-string guitar solo-ish line.  That track was reportedly cut at the same session as "Susie".  

adamghost:  <<Couple of interesting things this gives us. With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.>> Unless it's Blondie on an undocumented overdub.  Smiley  I read that following the breakup of The Flame, Blondie returned to South Africa for several months.  He was contacted there by Jack Rieley and asked to join the BBs in Europe when they were there in February for "Gran Gala du Disque" and other appearances.  This would explain his absence from the "Mess Of Help" and "Marcella" tracking sessions, but as I said, he could have still overdubbed parts later.  Although, in the promo clip for "Mess Of Help" shot for the Old Grey Whistle Test, Carl mimes the lead guitar part while Blondie mimes the bass.

adamghost:  <<Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella." That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense). Carl definitely on rhythm guitar. Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.>>  Bruce has said that he only sang on "Marcella", but he said that a good ten years after the fact, so who knows.  I think that Carl could've overdubbed the percussion, as he often did on songs he produced (with Ricky maybe helping him here).  And who played the zither?  

adamghost:  <<No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier. That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes". The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.>> I think there's maybe two rhythm guitar parts on "Here She Comes" (maybe Blondie & Carl), but I'll bet Blondie played bass on the basic track (since it's the dominant "guide" instrument), and his guitars were overdubbed.  

adamghost:  <<That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.>> Carl and Blondie are both noted as playing "1 dbl." at the session for "Hold On Dear Brother"/"All This Is That".  That could be for guitar & bass (Blondie) and acoustic piano & electric piano (Carl), or acoustic piano & guitar (Blondie) and bass & electric piano (Carl)...or any number of possible configuratons.  Or, Ricky (reportedly the main composer of the two Blondie/Ricky tunes on "So Tough") could've played the piano (although there is no "double" listed for him on the AFM).

adamghost:  <<"He Come Down" is interesting. Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian. Brian on piano. Ricky on drums. Blondie on bass. There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel). I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point. The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s. So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian. One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...>>  Well, since this was supposedly cut at the same session as "Here She Comes", perhaps Billy only played on "Here She Comes" (likewise, I'm assuming Brian only played on "He Come Down").

adamghost:  <<So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best. Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele. That's probably Carl.>> Never noticed it, but yes...Carl played uke on "Good Time" and probably "Loop De Loop".    

adamghost:  <<"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn. There are two piano tracks (at least). The prominent one is definitely Brian. Ricky on drums obviously. Who's playing bass? It's a pretty raw, funky track. Brian? Doubtful. Carl or Billy on bass? Tough call. For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know. I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?>> Yes...August '72.

adamghost:  <<My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars. No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.>> I think I can hear organ in the "she don't know" parts.

adamghost:  <<"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.>> Thank God, an easy one!  Smiley

metal flake paint:  <<Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?>> AFM says that one was cut at the "Marcella" session (along with something called "Body Talk"), so supposedly the same lineup.  Then there was a big string & banjo overdub later.  But, isn't the booted version more "demo-ish" than "master-ish"?  

hypehat: <<C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl?>> Twenty-five.  And since metal flake paint IS interested:

Electric bass guitar: Stephens LaFever
Violins: Bonnie Douglas, Assa Drori, Irving Geller, Alfred Lustgarten, Leonard Malarsky, Jay Rosen, Nathan Ross, Sheldon Sanov, Leonard Selic, Spiro Stamos, Dorothy Wade, and Shari Zippert
Violas: Norm Botnick, David Burk, Joseph Reilich, and David Schwartz
Cellos: JoAnn Johannsen, Jan Kelley, Nathan Gershman, and Victor Sazer
Acoustic upright double basses (arco): James D. Hughart, Richard F. Kelley, Sr., and Meyer Rubin
Tympani: Frank Capp

The "Make It Good" horn overdub, led by Dennis at Sunset Sound, included the following:
French horns: Barbara Carlson, Vincent DeRosa, David Duke, and George Hyde
Trumpets: Chuck Findley and Ollie Mitchell
Trombone: Lew McCreary
Bass trombone: Dick "Slyde" Hyde


Many thanks Craig. Nice to see a familiar name in Frank Capp. "Hey Frankie, none of those big pick-ups, pa pa pa pa pa, just, du-du, du-du"
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« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2010, 03:11:57 AM »


Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.

Well...not exactly... other than a sped up re-release of the '61 version of Surfin'...the first two Beach Boys LP's do not feature Al in any role.
[/quote]

I stand corrected  Embarrassed
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« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2010, 03:16:20 AM »

Great stuff Adam. Surely worthy of inclusion in the "Definitive Instrumental Thread" (if there is such a thing already).

There isn't. That's a shame. But I surely would like to have one! Me too. Would make a great companion piece to the vocals thread! I have very fond memories of those weeks (months?) checking in on, and adding to, the definite vocals thread after work on a daily basis in 2008. Back then I suggested a definitive vocals thread including ALL vocals. But I was overruled, the argument being: "Impossible". I'm amazed by peoples ability to discern musicians by listening to the recordings and I always enjoy comments like "Hold on, I'll just send Alan Jardine an email", or "Why don't we ask Bruce on the BBB"?
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« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2010, 03:30:57 AM »

How much of the band was on "Santa Ana Winds"? 
Judging from what I've read about the Knebworth performance, maybe none  Shocked
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« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2010, 06:20:17 AM »


Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.

Well...not exactly... other than a sped up re-release of the '61 version of Surfin'...the first two Beach Boys LP's do not feature Al in any role.

I stand corrected  Embarrassed
[/quote]

Another "close" one is "Friends"...instrumentally, he's only on "Passing By".  And yet another "close" one is "Sunflower"...according to Desper, he's on "It's About Time", and if so, that would be it.  And, then there's "Summer In Paradise", on which he doesn't play an instrument at all.
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« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2010, 06:53:10 AM »

I'm surprised about 'Friends'. That doesn't strike me as a particularly complex album; plus recent recordings where you can hear Al play prove he's no amatuer.
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