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Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Topic: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67? (Read 12611 times)
Mike's Beard
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Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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February 04, 2010, 11:23:02 AM »
I've always wondered why when Mike and perhaps one or two other BBs voiced objections over the Smile material Brian didn' t seek to put it out under his own name? If people around him felt that the songs were too far forward for the Beach Boys audience maybe he could have thought something like "Right- Wild Honey as a group project, Smile as a solo artist". Wouldn't this have solved alot of problems within the group at the time?
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #1 on:
February 04, 2010, 11:59:16 AM »
it needed those Beach Boys vocals...it makes sense to make it solo (with Caroline No being a BW solo single)...but as Michael V. once said on the Dumb Angel doc, he wanted those beach boy harmonies.
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Alex
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #2 on:
February 04, 2010, 12:04:02 PM »
Quote from: mikes beard on February 04, 2010, 11:23:02 AM
I've always wondered why when Mike and perhaps one or two other BBs voiced objections over the Smile material Brian didn' t seek to put it out under his own name? If people around him felt that the songs were too far forward for the Beach Boys audience maybe he could have thought something like "Right- Wild Honey as a group project, Smile as a solo artist". Wouldn't this have solved alot of problems within the group at the time?
How much time do you have?
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Mike's Beard
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #3 on:
February 04, 2010, 12:09:36 PM »
Yep in that respect i guess there's just no getting round it - everything sounds better when it has the full backwash of vocals from Carl & Co. One of the biggest problems I had/have with BWPS is whenever i hear the backing vocals of pretty much any song on it i immediately compare them to the BBs backing vocals on the orig sessions and they just can't compete in my mind.
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Mike's Beard
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #4 on:
February 04, 2010, 12:12:36 PM »
Oh that and the rapping pirate!!
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #5 on:
February 04, 2010, 12:12:56 PM »
Not to mention the fact that most of the BB's were family, and depended (at least Brian felt that way) on him to make the hit records. Imagine if SMiLE would have been a Brian Wilson smash solo album. The group would never be the same-it just couldn't happen, the dynamics were such that it'd be a problem.
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Mike's Beard
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #6 on:
February 04, 2010, 12:17:51 PM »
Maybe Brian did put the idea out there then but was talked out of it for the reasons stated above?
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Cam Mott
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #7 on:
February 04, 2010, 12:48:39 PM »
Quote from: mikes beard on February 04, 2010, 11:23:02 AM
I've always wondered why when Mike and perhaps one or two other BBs voiced objections over the Smile material Brian didn' t seek to put it out under his own name? If people around him felt that the songs were too far forward for the Beach Boys audience maybe he could have thought something like "Right- Wild Honey as a group project, Smile as a solo artist". Wouldn't this have solved alot of problems within the group at the time?
I personally don't think other people's opinions mattered to Brian in that way and didn't keep him from doing anything that he wanted to do or make him do anything he didn't want to do in any way he did or didn't want to do or not do it; that notion is sort of a fan fiction imo. Anyways, some [or at least one] in the Posse says he encouraged that solo idea to Brian and Brian dismissed it out of hand, I take that to mean Brian never had any intention or inkling to go solo.
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #8 on:
February 04, 2010, 01:35:03 PM »
Quote
Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
It wasn't finished
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Jon Stebbins
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #9 on:
February 04, 2010, 01:43:13 PM »
Because he wanted to put it out less than they did.
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Sheriff John Stone
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #10 on:
February 04, 2010, 02:29:01 PM »
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on February 04, 2010, 01:43:13 PM
Because he wanted to put it out less than they did.
Yep. Brian kept accumulating reasons for not putting it out, none of which the other guys agreed with.
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Ian
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #11 on:
February 04, 2010, 02:37:31 PM »
Asking that question shows that you don't really understand the Beach Boys group dynamics. Brian was raised by his father to believe that anyone outside the family can't be trusted...and that family is all that matters...So he had huge psychological reasons for not "abandoning" his family. As has been written a thousand times-the BBs are not a group like the Kinks or Beatles...they are three brothers, a cousin and a friend. And that friend had to wait a long time to become a full corporate member
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #12 on:
February 04, 2010, 02:56:21 PM »
I dunno if that flies completely! We're all raised with one thing or another beaten into our skulls, but not all of it dominates our adult lives! Brian isn't all that different.
If Brian was a slave to the family, then why was he constantly deviating from that scenario by adopting outside lyricists (purposfully antagonizing Mike even) using outside musicians, constantly hanging out with new friends, and generally distancing himself from The Beach Boys, which he is still doing today.
I think the Sherriff hit it on the head once again.
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Magic Transistor Radio
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #13 on:
February 04, 2010, 08:11:06 PM »
I bet that the other BBs including Mike would have preffered Smile over Smiley Smile.
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #14 on:
February 05, 2010, 01:32:57 AM »
Quote from: Magic Transistor Radio on February 04, 2010, 08:11:06 PM
I bet that the other BBs including Mike would have preffered Smile over Smiley Smile.
That's one thing that always bugged me; if the other guys (including the devil himself, Mike Love) didn't think SMiLE was commercial enough, and they didn't think people would 'get it', how in the world would they think Smiley Smile was more accessible? Just because they reached a point where they needed product on the shelves?
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Nicko
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #15 on:
February 05, 2010, 03:39:44 AM »
Quote from: A Million Units In Jan! on February 05, 2010, 01:32:57 AM
That's one thing that always bugged me; if the other guys (including the devil himself, Mike Love) didn't think SMiLE was commercial enough, and they didn't think people would 'get it', how in the world would they think Smiley Smile was more accessible? Just because they reached a point where they needed product on the shelves?
They didn't. The other BBs didn't refuse to record Smile and they didn't choose for Smiley Smile to be released. Both down to Brian. The reasons can and have obviously been debated though...
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #16 on:
February 05, 2010, 04:31:15 AM »
I think if he had wanted to really go solo in 1967 he would have. It basically comes down to the fact that he began to focus too much on the minutia and lost the bigger concept of the whole. When that happened he just switched directions. I know some find this hard to believe but there was a period where Brian was happy being a Beach Boy instead of THE Beach Boy. He agreed with me quite strongly when I suggested to him that the Beach Boys of the late sixties worked very well together as a group. Listening to Friends, Sunflower, Wild Honey, even Smiley, I hear that and others have confirmed that to me as well.
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Mike's Beard
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #17 on:
February 05, 2010, 12:03:07 PM »
Some interesting replies, can't say I agree with all of them but then thats the beauty of a good debate!!
I must say I find it a bit weird that some body posted that Brian would not want to pursue outside ventres because of the group dynamic and family ties. As soon as the BBs started he was writing and producing for other artists. I think he wanted to be another Phil Spector who he obliviously idolised. I also have a suspicion that the Caroline No single was issued under his own name as a ways of testing the water to see if he could indeed shift records as a solo artist. In '66-67 it's quite easy to imagine that word around town was that Brian had outgown the Beach Boys - certainly areas of the music press were hinting at this.
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Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:06:46 PM by mikes beard
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Cam Mott
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #18 on:
February 05, 2010, 05:43:29 PM »
I seem to remember Brian saying that Caroline No was not part of a plan to break out solo but was part of a plan to showcase individual Boys in the same way. Apparently the plan just never got beyond Brian with C,N [let's hate him [just kidding]] although Gettin' Hungry kind of a sort of showcase for Mike. You know, if you hold your head just right.
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BillA
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #19 on:
February 05, 2010, 07:55:51 PM »
I always figured that it didn't come out because Brian didn't know how to finsih it, especially since VDP had departed the scene. It is obvious that he had trouble commuicating his vision so there was nobody elese who could even help him finish it.
Thses leads me to a side question. What is the last thing that Brian was able to finish producing without any outside help? I wouldn't be surprised if it was Good Vibrations or one of the finished SMiLe pieces.
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #20 on:
February 05, 2010, 08:38:21 PM »
Mike wrote the lyrics and bass vocal hook for Good Vibrations after Tony Asher had already contributed.
Yes, Van Dyke was gone and Brian wasn't including Mike.
These are things that didn't help,
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Mike's Beard
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #21 on:
February 06, 2010, 05:18:10 AM »
But what I find perplexing is that other than the missing VDP lyrics being slotted into place on a few songs, I really can't find virtually any difference between most BWSP tracks and many of the more polished outtakes from the Smile sessions (in particular the ones on the Good Vibrations boxset) in terms of arrangements. Of course they sound light years apart in terms of recording equipment advances in the past 40 years, and Brian's voice sounds nothing like it did back in '66 but in terms of pure arrangements many of them are identical. Which makes me wonder just how "unfinished" Smile really was. I think a better word might be "abandoned"
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Chris Brown
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #22 on:
February 06, 2010, 12:38:20 PM »
Quote from: mikes beard on February 06, 2010, 05:18:10 AM
But what I find perplexing is that other than the missing VDP lyrics being slotted into place on a few songs, I really can't find virtually any difference between most BWSP tracks and many of the more polished outtakes from the Smile sessions (in particular the ones on the Good Vibrations boxset) in terms of arrangements. Of course they sound light years apart in terms of recording equipment advances in the past 40 years, and Brian's voice sounds nothing like it did back in '66 but in terms of pure arrangements many of them are identical. Which makes me wonder just how "unfinished" Smile really was. I think a better word might be "abandoned"
You make a good point, but you're functioning under the assumption that Brian had finished writing by the time he abandoned Smile in '67. I think that had he seen it through to completion, there would have been a lot more to it that we never got to hear. A lot would have been the same, yes, but there likely would have been new sections for some of the songs, or perhaps completely new songs all together. We obviously don't know, but I don't think finishing it in '67 would have been as (relatively) easy as recording some lead vocals and splicing pre-existing sections together. This, of course, leads us back to the question of whether a '67 Smile would have been comprised of "movements" like BWPS or 12 standalone tracks. I tend to lean towards the latter, which is why I don't look to BWPS for answers about the original work.
BWPS, at its essence, was compiled from what they had to work with, and not necessarily reflective of what the final product may have sounded like in '67. The arrangements are mostly identical because, at the outset, there wasn't really the idea to do any significant new composition, but to merely polish what was already there.
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Sheriff John Stone
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #23 on:
February 06, 2010, 04:44:05 PM »
We don't know exactly what was recorded in 1966-67, so, it's conjecture. But, based on BWPS being a representation of the SMiLE songs, which songs needed to be completed and how long do you think it would've taken to record it?
I don't think it would've taken terribly long, and some of the vocals might've already been recorded - we just never heard them.
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Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 04:46:25 PM by Sheriff John Stone
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Re: Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?
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Reply #24 on:
February 06, 2010, 07:09:08 PM »
It's pretty clear that after the beginning of the new year 1967, Brian for the most part stopped working on pretty much all of the titles associated with SMiLE to work solely on 'H&V' and 'Veggies'. Whether or not this is because he felt the other titles were complete (or awfully close), or because he knew he needed to get out a single (and Heroes and Veggies were the two most, I guess 'obvious' candidates for this) I don't know. What would be the reason that he would work on only two songs for 4 months?
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