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grillo
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« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2010, 12:38:24 AM »

I was somehow lucky enough to not get to read the offending posts, but THIS particular thread is pretty sad, and people's inability to be civil on a message board about a band they all love speaks volumes about them. Is somebody right? NO. Folks have opinions, and like Jeremy said, do unto others...
It's all rather embarrassing to have to hear (or read) supposedly grown men (women too, I guess) getting all tough over the internet. If this is even the slightest representation of the way people operate in the greater world it's no wonder it's so f***ed.
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« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2010, 12:42:56 AM »

Let's stop the fighting.

Now.

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Finally, if you're not striving to live by this rule, think about it:  "treat others the way you'd like to be treated."

Amen.
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« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2010, 12:44:10 AM »

Yeah, this is pretty sad and immature stuff from ALL involved.
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« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2010, 12:46:00 AM »

100% agreed Nicko.

I'm going to lock this thread now.  Then I'm going to hang my head in shame.
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« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2010, 06:49:20 AM »

I'm unlocking it, let these fools fight. Just keep it in the sandbox with the rest of the sh*t.
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« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2010, 08:53:16 AM »

Jeez...Everytime I'm about to add my two cents, the thread gets locked, deleted, or moved. I better type fast....No, just kidding. police

I wanted to address this issue to the moderators, because I see it creeping into the various threads, and I believe it is directly responsible for the conflict that occured in this recent case. And that is the playing of the "mental illness card".

I think every member on this board believes that Brian Wilson suffers from mental illness. The DEGREE or exent of mental illness is where we differ. Of course none of us knows the degree or extent; even those close to Brian over the years didn't even know - they have said as much, it is documented. However, on this board, mental illness is increasingly being used as an excuse for Brian's behavior (warranted or unwarranted - who knows?).

There are many fascinating topics regarding Brian Wilson to discuss on this message board. It's interesting, educational, and FUN! But, this is what I see happening. The topic will be something like: Why did Brian abuse LSD, marijuana, amphetimines, hashish, cocaine, heroin, cigarettes, and alcohol? There will be a number of well thought out theories presented, and somebody will inevitably post, "Because he's mentally ill." Next topic: Why did Brian scrap SMiLE? Again, numerous reasons presented, including, "Because he's mentally ill." And, this is pretty much the trend. On stage, why does Brian yawn, look at his watch, and dart off the stage before the final song is over? "Because he's mentally ill." And, then there's the most recent discussion: Why didn't Brian stand up and do what was right in crediting Mike Love for his songwriting contributions? "Because he's mentally ill."

But, that's not the problem. That's not the problem. THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM! The problem isn't that posters want to dismiss alternative (maybe valid) theories for Brian's behavior with "Because he's mentally ill". If that's what they believe then that's what they should write. The problem is, if you don't agree to their take on Brian's mental illness, they resort to insulting, personal, and negative comments, including name-calling. These posters (and there are/were only a few) want to make you feel like you're ignorant or personally demeaning Brian Wilson, which is ludicrous. I see (and have been on the receiving end of) responses like, "You're an insensitive idiot." Or, "Can't you see Brian's mentally ill, you jerk.", Or, "Stone, you're a condesending whatever." Recently I was making a point, trying to make Brian somewhat accountable for not giving Mike songwriting credit, and somebody responded, "Sheriff John Stone, do you even believe mental illness exists?" Now, what did a question like that accomplish?

I'll tell you what it accomplishes. It pisses people off. As I stated above, everybody believes Brian suffers from mental illness, but we'll NEVER AGREE on the extent. Therefore, some people will try to make Brian more accountable for his behavior than others. The Beach Boys themselves didn't agree. Neither did Marilyn. Neither did Brian's record companies. And, of course, Melinda herself has her own beliefs. I'm not saying somebody shouldn't use mental illness as an excuse if that's what they truly believe, because obviously it was in some cases. But, if somebody chooses to put less emphasis on mental illness, and make Brian more accountable, that person's position must be respected, not subjected to personal attacks or name-calling. If somebody thinks Brian should take responsibility for his drug intake, that poster should expect to be vigorously and aggressively challenged. They should not be subjected to name-calling and profanity.

Moderators, yes, you should ask someone to ignore a post, scroll down, or click on another topic. But, that's easier said than done. The blood pressure rises, you wanna literally jump through the computer screen, or, in this case, you wanna return the insult. All I'm saying is (pompously, I guess...Surfer Joe, straighten me out!), watch out for the personal attacks, the name-calling, or the posts whose only intent is too piss someone off. I apologize for rambling....
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 09:55:13 AM by Sheriff John Stone » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2010, 12:52:10 PM »

Not to give myself too much credit (and yes, I have 3 different names on here because I keep forgetting my password) but I almost feel that I'm responsible for all this in a way. I know I can be very very annoying with my unwavering defense of Mike Love, so whatever responsabilty I hold for starting little fires and then stepping back and watching them spread.... I accept and apoligize.

One thing I can't figure out though is...... who exactly is BASHING Brian? It's been brought up several times yet I don't really see it! We all worship the man, of course, but playing around and making jokes here and there does not constitute bashing! Mike Love gets BASHED! This isn't even arguable. If we're all hyper sensetive when it comes to Brian, let's try and be respectful across the board then to both Mike as well as Dennis, Carl, Bruce, Al.... AND.... each other! I shall try to lead by example, but perversity gets the best of us all at times.

Rob, don't leave please!!!  Undecided
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »

I think it would be sad if people left because of the old Brian/Mike thing. The fact is that in any group activity such as a music group, group dynamics are complicated and often driven by the needs of the moment. I think this is especially true of The Beach Boys, who are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot business wise. I don't see this as a Brian versus Mike problem, but as a group problem. All one needs to do is follow the group's history over the years to verify this pattern. Not that any of this particularly matters any more, because The Beach Boys died when Dennis passed in my opinion. That some of the group are still touring is nice to keep the music in front of people. I used to think that it was a problem that so many people were touring Brian's music, but not any more. It's good to expose a new generation to Beach Boys music. It's about keeping the music alive these days, not the summer. Violin Violin Violin Drumroll Drumroll Drumroll Brian, Dennis, & Carl Brian, Dennis, & Carl Serenade Serenade Serenade Old Man
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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2010, 05:20:35 PM »

I agree with the Sheriff, none of us are able to say much about any current mental illness [if we knew we couldn't say], let alone past mental illness [to whatever extent, if any]. It does feel like a dodge to me sometimes, especially when used to excuse some activity in the earlier career. Not trying to start a fight just an opinion, maybe out of line, I'm not a professional. Would mental illness be an excuse or would it be an explanation or both?

I also agree with whoever said no one was bashing or ridiculing Brian in that thread [I might be proved wrong if it is reposted], maybe no one was bashing Mike in that thread either, maybe it was just a presumptive defensivness all around. I feel the BBs are/were all just a bunch nice guys trying to get along and deal in our imperfect human way with what was dealt 'em.

I hope nobody leaves, moderators deserve a hug even when people get upset with them, and I, and I hope anyone else who feels like it, apologize for any offense caused.
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« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2010, 07:40:54 PM »

I did hear of eventually all of what did take place, and it is really unfortunate that some individuals thought it necessary to come attack Rob like this. Especially Denise who is a truly nice person who doesn't deserve to be insulted by people who have never even met her. I'm in agreement with the majority that I think it is wrong to bring up spouses or anyone's personal life into a public forum when discussing something as silly as the Brian/Mike issue. On the flip side of it however, I think that PMs should also not be posted publicly unless a case is bought up. It went immediately from a rather healthy, intriguing discussion into something vile and malicious. It's easy on the internet for people to misunderstand what someone is saying or let emotions get the best of them. What I tell people sometimes is what if your actually talking to someone in person, telling them all this rather then online. Would you really want to say that?

Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 07:52:48 PM by SurferGirl7 » Logged
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« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2010, 08:51:58 PM »

I think it would be sad if people left because of the old Brian/Mike thing. The fact is that in any group activity such as a music group, group dynamics are complicated and often driven by the needs of the moment. I think this is especially true of The Beach Boys, who are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot business wise. I don't see this as a Brian versus Mike problem, but as a group problem. All one needs to do is follow the group's history over the years to verify this pattern. Not that any of this particularly matters any more, because The Beach Boys died when Dennis passed in my opinion. That some of the group are still touring is nice to keep the music in front of people. I used to think that it was a problem that so many people were touring Brian's music, but not any more. It's good to expose a new generation to Beach Boys music. It's about keeping the music alive these days, not the summer. Violin Violin Violin Drumroll Drumroll Drumroll Brian, Dennis, & Carl Brian, Dennis, & Carl Serenade Serenade Serenade Old Man
Peter I think this is your best post ever.
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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2010, 09:00:07 PM »

I think it would be sad if people left because of the old Brian/Mike thing. The fact is that in any group activity such as a music group, group dynamics are complicated and often driven by the needs of the moment. I think this is especially true of The Beach Boys, who are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot business wise. I don't see this as a Brian versus Mike problem, but as a group problem. All one needs to do is follow the group's history over the years to verify this pattern. Not that any of this particularly matters any more, because The Beach Boys died when Dennis passed in my opinion. That some of the group are still touring is nice to keep the music in front of people. I used to think that it was a problem that so many people were touring Brian's music, but not any more. It's good to expose a new generation to Beach Boys music. It's about keeping the music alive these days, not the summer. Violin Violin Violin Drumroll Drumroll Drumroll Brian, Dennis, & Carl Brian, Dennis, & Carl Serenade Serenade Serenade Old Man
Peter I think this is your best post ever.

And best use of smileys! 
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« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2010, 09:09:30 PM »

Don't mean to drag up anything at all just responding...
Yeah, this is pretty sad and immature stuff from ALL involved.
I'm not taking this as an attack, but personally I don't think I did anything wrong, sad or immature I was slightly involved in that I criticized one comment I didn't see fit (if you didn't like or want my opinion, that's too bad as most of the posts on the Mike/Brian thread were "opinion") and defended Rob and Clay (which I will do without apology and will always continue to). I find these a) just an opinion and b) just being kind and defending friends.

So I'll say it: Rob, Clay, DON'T LEAVE.  
Too late in Rob's case apparantley, but in Clay's case I will echo this.

Bringing up PM's, unacceptable. Comments against one's partner, male or female, unacceptable. Strong opinions on Mike or Brian that are still on the "respectful" side of things, fine.

Not to give myself too much credit (and yes, I have 3 different names on here because I keep forgetting my password) but I almost feel that I'm responsible for all this in a way. I know I can be very very annoying with my unwavering defense of Mike Love, so whatever responsabilty I hold for starting little fires and then stepping back and watching them spread.... I accept and apoligize.
You did absolutely nothing wrong at all except for liking "Looking Back with Love." Grin

I must agree with Stone about the mental illness card being overplayed and a cop-out. A point I'd like to add meekly and humbly is that there is a certain kind of inbalance in the Wilson/Love blood as far as I know that would be, I don't want to say hereditary but certainly handed down...remember Murry's father was a very harsh man which carried to Murry and Murry stayed in bed for long periods. Brian was known to do this. Dennis and Murry had a lot in common and more than once Carl was described as a slighter version of Murry without the shouting and temper (which I only agree with for small periods). Stan beat up his cousin Dennis very badly, and Dennis married his cousin's daughter. Mike had 8 children and Brian has (adopted and natural) 6 children total. Brian and Carl had a difficult relationship later in life. Also remember Mike was institutionalized for a period, has not been on speaking terms with his father for a considerable amount of time and also doesn't talk to Stan now (I believe it's Stan although it could be Steve). There are definite patterns and you have to keep this is mind when discussing the whole saga.
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« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2010, 09:53:15 PM »

TdHabib you bring up some good points. I feel bad for all the Wilson's and Love's to some extent. It seems none of them had a great upbringing and it hurt them all in one way or another. I think Tim White traced it back to Buddy Wilson who seems by far to be the least sympathetic character in the whole family.
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« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2010, 03:51:35 AM »

This thread is slowly turning into a valuable one (a few exceptions excluded). I'd like to thank all of you for your thoughts on this awkward situation. A lot of valuable advise for ALL of us, and that includes us moderators. Billy, Joe, Jason and I have been talking a lot on the whole sitation of the last few days, and most of our conclusions are similar to those you have mentioned here. As for our role here. We realise very well that (being the enthousiastic fans we are, just like you all) sometimes it's not easy to simultaneously join a discussion and keep that role of supervisor in mind. All I can promise is that we'll do our very best to do a proper job as moderators.

That being said: the "History of Mike's reputation"-thread is about to be moved back to the main forum.

Please try to keep that thread "on-topic", and continue "that other discussion" in this topic in the Sandbox... thus far no-one came out as a winner here, at least let us try to gain that what (and maybe those who) we have lost back again.
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« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2010, 04:25:36 AM »

This belong over there but I don't want to violate the treaty.

One of Rob's and my replys might give the impression I meant Rob when I told about someone insulting my wife. I did not. Rob and I have always had passionate but respectful debates without insulting each other or our families, as far as I remember, and will continue to somewhere I'm sure.

Maybe this was un-neccesaary but there it is anyway. I hope Rob comes back here.
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« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2010, 05:26:54 AM »

This belong over there but I don't want to violate the treaty.

One of Rob's and my replys might give the impression I meant Rob when I told about someone insulting my wife. I did not. Rob and I have always had passionate but respectful debates without insulting each other or our families, as far as I remember, and will continue to somewhere I'm sure.

Maybe this was un-neccesaary but there it is anyway. I hope Rob comes back here.

Cam Cott: if you feel uncomfortable on how a specific post you wrote might be judged you can edit it yourself (or add abovementioned information). Apparently I didn't edit it, so I didn't see any harm in it anyway.


And I agree with you: I hope Rob (and others that have decided to turn their back on this forum) will eventually turn back. We don't have to become friends with everybody, or act like nothing has happened. But I can perfectly live with it, if we succeed in avoiding/ignoring those we'd rather not discuss with, and continue the discussions in a positive way.
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Rule of thumb, think BEFORE you post. And THINK how it may affect someone else's feelings.

Check out the Beach Boys Starline website, the place for pictures of many countries Beach Boys releases on 45.

Listening to you I get the music; Gazing at you I get the heat; Following you I climb the mountain; I get excitement at your feet
Right behind you I see the millions; On you I see the glory; From you I get opinions; From you I get the story
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« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2010, 05:36:58 AM »

TdHabib raised very valuable points.

Depression, and also impulsivity, have a strong genetic component to them. It 'runs in the family', often. Murry sought to alleviate his problems with alcohol; Brian did likewise (and with 10,000 other substances). Bud Wilson probably did. It is quite possible that Grandpa and Dad almost immediately regretted their violence after having perpetrated it; that is what impulsivity does to one. It's a lack of control. But it is also possible that they were absolutely unable to express regret, or difficult feelings in general. I can see a parallel between Murry becoming a soft chicken when hearing his boys making fine music, and Brian watching 'Flipper' on TV and weeping. It's a form of sentimentality that compensates for emotional problems.
Mike seemed (seems) to have been (be) in better control of his tempers... he limited (limits) himself to hurtful verbal remarks, and also lawsuits (well, the more ludicrous ones, anyway). Methods that avoid direct damage, but are harmful nonetheless. He's a more sly person. But I can well accept that he has some sort of tendency towards emotional instability as well. On the other side, he's a really disciplined trooper.
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« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2010, 07:46:28 AM »

Cam Cott: if you feel uncomfortable on how a specific post you wrote might be judged you can edit it yourself (or add abovementioned information). Apparently I didn't edit it, so I didn't see any harm in it anyway.

Will do, didn't want to disrupt the uncertain balance of the restored thread.
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« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2010, 09:22:20 AM »

I am truly sorry for repeating myself (it's a character flaw, I'm working on it), but I think a point should be clarified.

I am seeing mental illness/heredity/parental influence being discussed - and the way some apply it directly to Brian's behavior - and that's a good thing. If you truly believe that is the case, and you need this issue to make your case/argument, go for it. But, if somebody does not agree with the "mental illness affect" as strongly as you, or at all, please do not resort to name-calling and derogatory comments.

Because you don't put as much emphasis on mental illness, as it applies to a Wilson's behavior, that does not make you ignorant, insensitive, or BEING MEAN TO THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED! Come on, give me a break. It is nothing personal against Brian or anybody else, so don't play that card either.

I will repeat this, too. This blowup occured because of name-calling, getting personal, and using profanity. It was done as a response, just because somebody didn't agree with a post. One poster responded to another poster WHO TRIED TO MAKE BRIAN ACCOUNTABLE AND DIDN'T BUY INTO THE MENTALL ILLNESS THEORY. If you become THAT upset with a post that causes you to lash out like that, maybe it is best to step away for awhile and re-evaluate things.
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« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2010, 10:55:31 AM »

Sheriff, I believe firmly that the content of the post was not what was found objectionable...rather the person (me) who made the comment. You would have been merely laughed at for the same post. The reactions to my post are down to personal bias inherent in the individuals who responded as they did. And that is now, as it was then, their problem and not mine.
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« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2010, 12:52:16 PM »

TdHabib raised very valuable points. Depression, and also impulsivity, have a strong genetic component to them. It 'runs in the family', often. Murry sought to alleviate his problems with alcohol; Brian did likewise (and with 10,000 other substances). Bud Wilson probably did. It is quite possible that Grandpa and Dad almost immediately regretted their violence after having perpetrated it; that is what impulsivity does to one. It's a lack of control. But it is also possible that they were absolutely unable to express regret, or difficult feelings in general. I can see a parallel between Murry becoming a soft chicken when hearing his boys making fine music, and Brian watching 'Flipper' on TV and weeping. It's a form of sentimentality that compensates for emotional problems. Mike seemed (seems) to have been (be) in better control of his tempers... he limited (limits) himself to hurtful verbal remarks, and also lawsuits (well, the more ludicrous ones, anyway). Methods that avoid direct damage, but are harmful nonetheless. He's a more sly person. But I can well accept that he has some sort of tendency towards emotional instability as well. On the other side, he's a really disciplined trooper.
Good post Don. I'm very proud of my post.

One more point is that some people rightly take offense when people blame Mike for Brian's problems. But just a thought that I'll add in a humble, meek voice that it is possible that Mike hurt Brian without knowing he was doing so. I was thinking of a personal situation where I had an argument with someone which played out with several other people, she really hurt my feelings, and then about a year later she told me half of the things I thought she said she never did and people were exaggerating and/or I was coming to the wrong conclusions at the time. I think this is what happened with Mike and Brian. They had arguments, Brian's feelings got hurt and he probably made it worse than it was. Mike probably was just saying/doing what he thought was right and what he felt strongly about. Brian in 1965-1967 (and then 10x so in the following years) was a fragile person easily upset. Hell, he cried at "Flipper" and didn't have a lot of patience in general. Mike could've easily upset Brian without knowing he was doing so or as bad as he was. Just a theory.
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« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2010, 01:07:52 PM »

I think that is very possible, because I believe that most if not all hurt these guys caused each was not intentional. Another thing that I think gets overlooked is the hurt Brian and Dennis caused or put the Boys through over the years.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:31:40 PM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 01:50:30 PM »

Sheriff, I believe firmly that the content of the post was not what was found objectionable...rather the person (me) who made the comment. You would have been merely laughed at for the same post. The reactions to my post are down to personal bias inherent in the individuals who responded as they did. And that is now, as it was then, their problem and not mine.

I totally agree, that's what I'm saying! Somebody objects to a post, but instead of responding by addressing the point(s) that they disagree with, they throw out insulting, personal comments. Then the person who was insulted retaliates and all hell breaks loose.

Not that I'm condoning insults to someone's family, or profanity, I'M NOT CONDONING IT, but your point (I think it was your point) and Dancing Bear's point is well taken. This is a rock & roll message board, and if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 02:34:08 PM »

Well, that's the way it's always been on here...obviously the kitchen now has fewer cooks. Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.
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