History of Mike's reputation

[Synth Wash]

Has anyone else read Jim Fusilli's book on Pet Sounds? I think this may be the most recent example of Mike Bashing published in a book. Without going back and listening to my audiobook to get an exact quote, Fusilli says something to the fact that while The Beatles carefully crafted their legend, The Beach Boys ran theirs into the ground with Mike's oldies act and he goes on to belittle the current Love/Johnston incarnation of the BBs. The only place I've seen any love for the Lovester is on this board.

Personally, I think his voice is just a plain embarrassment in too many songs where he sings lead. It's hard to convince a casual BBs listener to get past that nasaly voice to hear the complexity beneath. I wish I didn't have to do that. Why couldn't he more often sound like he does on "All I Wanna Do" or at least "All I want to Do?". Even Bruce points this out in the Warmth of the Sun podcast series when he's talking about Mike's lead on "It's OK".

[Dancing Bear]

How isn't Mike really a songwriter? You may think that he never really wrote a good full song by himself - I think most of the fans like Big Sur at least, but it's irrelevant - but he's as much of a songwriter as any other Beach Boy. And I think Carl is barely a better songwriter than Mike. Basically one 'Long Promised Road' of advantage.

[Spencer]

The first time I saw a beach boys live DVD (I think it was the lost concert) I was terribly embarrassed by Mike Love chicken dance, then I saw older concerts and was even more appalled by his sub Mick Jagger strut and corny presentation and the jokes! Good grief why does that man speak (his claim that he loves the silence following his jokes doesn't ring true)?  In short I can't watch him live at all without either laughing or being shocked.

Then I went to interviews and was taken aback by how angry he seems even right back in the 60's, he seems to have some sort of personality problem, then I read about him not liking Pet Sounds and SMILE which baffled me- in short, he is everything that is bad about the beach boys- I don't really value his bass singing that much (I think any of the beach boys could have done it I mean it's not exactly a booming bass) and his lead vocal quality can easily grate. The songs where he has contributed lyrics do not match songs where Brian has written with other people, it's embarrassing for a man even in his 20's to be singing about school and I wish he'd shut up about "having the idea" for back in the USSR.

I agree with other posts that The Beach Boys could have been just as good without him, although whether they would have actually got anywhere without him is a point that can never be solved.

 I can understand him being concerned with Brain's drug use and use of other song writing partners, but ultimately he just didn't seem to understand that an artist has to change and grow and not stick to a formula.

He also used the following opening line to Sean O' Hagan from the High Lamas who was going to produce the Beach Boys in the 90's, I paraphrase-
"so when are you limeys going to stop fuckin each other in the ass and make some good music?"
 It's not the best opening gambit even if it is a joke.

He may have mellowed and he may be more tolerable these days but that still leaves an embarrassing man.

[Cam Mott]

Everyone is going to judge the BBs and their music based on their personal tastes, no problem.

I question some of the info on which we base some of our conclusions about their actions, AGD routinely knocks down some presumed "truth" with some unexpected facts. Stuff like the '93 lawsuit: I don't think we understand what happened there.  I'm not sure we even know what the complaint was and who it was against let alone the testimony and evidence. Some lawyer-type needs to get to work on that, hint, hint. Anyway, one example of how we accept some information, which is probably just a lot of PSML fantasy, as proof of something. Or maybe it is...or isn't..aw, forget it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Stuff like the '93 lawsuit: I don't think we understand what happened there.  I'm not sure we even know what the complaint was and who it was against let alone the testimony and evidence.

All seems quite straightforward to me - Brian won something like $10 million from Irving/Almo, whereupon Mike decided to sue for label credits and back royalties. He was willing to settle out of court (reportedly for a one-off payment of $750,000, label credit and back royalties) but Brian's management decided they'd fight in court... and of course, lost (well, when your #1 witness is Brian Douglas Wilson, that's pretty much a given) not only the case but just about all of the award. Said it before, will keep on saying it -  Brian's management probably qualifies for a federal disaster grant.

[TdHabib]

And just to clarify things, I don't think Melinda was in the picture on Brian's management team yet. Am I right, AGD?

[Smilin Ed H]

"so when are you limeys going to stop fuckin each other in the ass and make some good music?"
  I wonder if he said something similar to Curt Becher.  Probably not, though maybe only because he's not English.

Much as I'd normally defend Al, I actually find his lyrics a little awkward in their ambition.  I know what you mean, but I prefer Mike until he seems to lose his muse in the mid-70s.  I hate clunky stuff like It's Okay and his vocals, in a different fashion, obviously, are as off as Brian's and Dennis'.  Of course, he wasn't the only BB to lose his way at that time...  In defence of Carl, I think he has three or four good songs, but that AOR stuff he gets into in the eighties could be anybody, frankly.

[Smilin Ed H]

Didn't Brian agree with Mike when it went to court?

[Andrew G. Doe]

And just to clarify things, I don't think Melinda was in the picture on Brian's management team yet. Am I right, AGD?

They weren't married yet - the case was heard starting on 12/12/94, decision was handed down 12/20 - but the wedding date (2/6/95) had certainly been set. I'm pretty sure she was Brian's conservator by then.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Didn't Brian agree with Mike when it went to court?

Brian wasn't in good shape and hated being in the witness box. In that situation, he basically agreed with whatever was said to him.

This will interest you: go here - http://www.cabinessence.net/, click on 'writings' then scroll down almost to the bottom of the left hand column, and click on "Love vs Wilson". Fascinating stuff.

[adamghost]

OK fair enough re Al...I may just be giving him undue credit because I don't think anyone's ever called attention to the fact that Al had more of a poet in him than he's ever given credit for (a much more creative lyricist than music writer IMHO), but it's fair to say that he doesn't always make it work.  I've always wished he did a whole album of folk music about California history.  Maybe nobody would buy it but I bet it would be an interesting record.

You could make an argument I suppose that DENNIS was the best lyricist in the band...not artful but forceful...but even I'm not clear of how much of the lyrics to his own songs he wrote.  I'm given to understand quite a lot but given the number of collaborators he's had it's impossible to tell.  In interviews, up until about 1977, he was one of the most articulate guys in the band, so it's not as counterintuitive as it might seen.

[Mr. Cohen]

I think that Mike's character is best summed up by the character Charlie Prince played by Ben Foster in the 2007 remake 3:10 to Yuma. Most obviously, they look uncannily similar (http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2007_3:10_to_Yuma/2007_3_10_to_yuma_003.jpg). Their cocky attitudes seem about the same. Both do whatever it takes to get the job done. Prince, in the beginning, has a near religious devotion to the ambitions of the outlaw star of the movie, Ben Wade, and the moneymaking ways of their band of thieves. At the same time, Prince still maintains a hidden sort of independence from Wade. Then, when Wade decides to fight for something he believes in as opposed to just making money, Prince turns on Wade to uphold the principles of their band, eventually commanding to the whole band to surround and kill Wade. A strange and unintentional allegory, I'm sure. But it's there, in a wild west movie set in a world full of heroes and villains.

[Dr. Tim]

Andrew is right that the Cabinessence article is the only comprehensive write-up of the 1993 Love v. Wilson suit I know of, written by an eyewitness.  The only way to learn more about the machinations would be to go to the court clerks' archives, rabbit through the court files (probably discarded by now), and pick out the juicier pleadings.  Which sounds easy enough (it isn't) but then you'd have to pay for them, then scan them, then post them.  eeccch.   Too much time/work for too little reward.   Besides the pertinent historic facts have all been hashed out here in various threads over the years, and on the Shut Down/Cabinessence board too.

[Andrew G. Doe]

You could make an argument I suppose that DENNIS was the best lyricist in the band...not artful but forceful...but even I'm not clear of how much of the lyrics to his own songs he wrote.  I'm given to understand quite a lot but given the number of collaborators he's had it's impossible to tell.  In interviews, up until about 1977, he was one of the most articulate guys in the band, so it's not as counterintuitive as it might seen.

I think Dennis wrote relatively few lyrics - even "Forever" was co-authored with Greg Jakobsen - and, oddly, Mike handed in some great words for him: "Only With You" and "Pacific Ocean Blues" spring readily to mind. As ever, I stand to be corrected in this.

[Jon Stebbins]

You could make an argument I suppose that DENNIS was the best lyricist in the band...not artful but forceful...but even I'm not clear of how much of the lyrics to his own songs he wrote.  I'm given to understand quite a lot but given the number of collaborators he's had it's impossible to tell.  In interviews, up until about 1977, he was one of the most articulate guys in the band, so it's not as counterintuitive as it might seen.

I think Dennis wrote relatively few lyrics - even "Forever" was co-authored with Greg Jakobsen - and, oddly, Mike handed in some great words for him: "Only With You" and "Pacific Ocean Blues" spring readily to mind. As ever, I stand to be corrected in this.

From what I've gathered Dennis did write a significant amount of the lyrics on the songs co-authored by Gregg, especially the POB and Bambu stuff. Kalinich is a different story, as might be the case with Mike, and Its About Time is practically no DW lyrics. However there are some of DW's best songs like Slip On Through, Cuddle Up, Thoughts of You, He's a Bum and many others on which he is the primary lyricist.

[mikeyj]

No idea how reliable it is but in that Daryl Dragon interview from Dan Addington's Denny site he says:

"You know, I'd think of one word - it was like Gregg Jakobson, he'd think of a single word and then Dennis would give him part of the writer's [credit]. A joke."

[Sheriff John Stone]

I prefer the lyrics on Pacific Ocean Blue to almost any other Beach Boys-related album, with the exception of Pet Sounds of course. They were/are very adult-like and mature, but also adult-childish (in a good way). I loved Dennis sense of humor ("open up my wallet and dust falls out but that's alright with me"), his directness ("I'm the kind of guy who loves to mess around...know a lot of women, but they don't fill my heart...), his pain ("said you love me now, in another way, oh in another way..."), and, maybe the best ("loneliness is a very special place, to forget is something that I've never done...silently, silently you touch my face...).

Sorry, I went a little off topic there. I don't know who specifically wrote which lyrics on POB, but I love 'em.

[Cam Mott]

Stuff like the '93 lawsuit: I don't think we understand what happened there.  I'm not sure we even know what the complaint was and who it was against let alone the testimony and evidence.

All seems quite straightforward to me

I doubt it old friend but maybe.

[Cam Mott]

The only way to learn more about the machinations would be to go to the court clerks' archives, rabbit through the court files (probably discarded by now), and pick out the juicier pleadings.  Which sounds easy enough (it isn't) but then you'd have to pay for them, then scan them, then post them.  eeccch.   Too much time/work for too little reward.   Besides the pertinent historic facts have all been hashed out here in various threads over the years, and on the Shut Down/Cabinessence board too.

There's the rub, the trouble and expense.

Without the aforementioned documents, can we know if it is pertinent historic facts? It feels more like historic hearsay to me.

[MBE]

I prefer the lyrics on Pacific Ocean Blue to almost any other Beach Boys-related album, with the exception of Pet Sounds of course. They were/are very adult-like and mature, but also adult-childish (in a good way). I loved Dennis sense of humor ("open up my wallet and dust falls out but that's alright with me"), his directness ("I'm the kind of guy who loves to mess around...know a lot of women, but they don't fill my heart...), his pain ("said you love me now, in another way, oh in another way..."), and, maybe the best ("loneliness is a very special place, to forget is something that I've never done...silently, silently you touch my face...).

Sorry, I went a little off topic there. I don't know who specifically wrote which lyrics on POB, but I love 'em.

Right on it's so well writen. People who dislike the Beach Boys may well love that album. Brilliant.

[Smilin Ed H]

Re: Al"I've always wished he did a whole album of folk music about California history."  Agreed.

[Dr. Tim]

There's the rub, the trouble and expense.

Without the aforementioned documents, can we know if it is pertinent historic facts? It feels more like historic hearsay to me.

The "historic hearsay", to use that term, gives you a decent picture of the squabbling and the personalities (lawyers and litigants), the only better record would be an actual transcript, which I doubt anyone got.  And even that wold not catch the sniping at counsel table before and after.  The pleadings might also shed some light as far as what was demanded but would not give you the flavor of what happened in court.  Incomplete as it is, the Shut Down essay is really quite informative in that respect.  The rulings of course were reported and we know what those were.

[Ganz Allein]

There's the rub, the trouble and expense.

Without the aforementioned documents, can we know if it is pertinent historic facts? It feels more like historic hearsay to me.

The "historic hearsay", to use that term, gives you a decent picture of the squabbling and the personalities (lawyers and litigants), the only better record would be an actual transcript, which I doubt anyone got.  And even that wold not catch the sniping at counsel table before and after.  The pleadings might also shed some light as far as what was demanded but would not give you the flavor of what happened in court.  Incomplete as it is, the Shut Down essay is really quite informative in that respect.  The rulings of course were reported and we know what those were.

Here's additional thoughts on the lawsuit from an interview with Tony Asher that some of you have probably seen before: http://surfermoon.com/interviews/asher.html  He says that he wrote all the lyrics for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and Mike had no input into it.

[Amy B.]

Here's additional thoughts on the lawsuit from an interview with Tony Asher that some of you have probably seen before: http://surfermoon.com/interviews/asher.html  He says that he wrote all the lyrics for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and Mike had no input into it.

When you read that Asher interview, you get yet another viewpoint that suggests that Mike is not a nice person, particularly the part about "I pray he does not have my phone number." If these views of Mike are exaggerated, I wonder where they came from among people who have met the guy. Maybe he just rubs people the wrong way, or maybe Brian said things to both Tony and VDP to skew their view of Mike. Or maybe Mike DID resent them for taking his place, let them know it (remember the VDP chartered plane story?), and their public words over the years have influenced Mike's reputation.

[Synth Wash]

Wow, the trial story on Cabinessence was riveting, and definitely paints Mike in a better light. Did Brian actually end up suing his own lawyers though? And I'm also curious about Mike's lawyer saying Mike and Brian wrote some new songs during that time period. Maybe that was the album they abandoned for Stars and Stripes?