Brian Wilson - Genius?

[JRauch]

  Sorry for that. I had a terrible day at work, so I´m a little bit "annoyed" right now by anything. Probably not a good time to have a discussion.

[Jason]

You know, there is a thread in the Sandbox where you can rant and rave. I would suggest taking a visit.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=639.0

[Surfer Joe]

Genius is not a scientific term, and is not defined as "extreme intelligence" by people who make careful studies of it.  I read a journalistic piece on the nature of genius years ago that gave as examples Babe Ruth and Dick Fosbury, the guy who invented the Fosbury flop.  They each approached something many other people had done, and did it  differently in a way that it revolutionized the sport.  They weren't geniuses in every aspect of life, but they each brought a certain genius to that one thing.  And neither could articulate it very well.

People want to turn "genius" into some kind of elite term, and Beethoven, Mozart, and Einstein are all cliches of genius, so let's limit it to them.  But if Mozart's music doesn't move me as much as Brian's, does that mean he's not a genius? 

As far as longevity, name a writer (can writers not be geniuses?) other than Dickens and possibly Shakespeare who wrote two acknowledged masterpieces much more than ten or fifteen years apart.  There are certainly a few, but it's not too easy.  The point is that a lot of great careers are not characterized by longevity, and I've never heard that held up as the standard of genius before.

If Brian Wilson is not a genius there's no such thing.

[Jason]

Excellent post. Maybe when you put it that way, maybe Brian is a genius.

[Surfer Joe]

Thanks, Doc-very graciously said.  Glad you stirred a worthy discussion. 

[Jason]

Don't give me credit for that, I just derailed the thread. 

[SurferGirl7]

Yes and no.



He is a genius in horn sections in pop


He's not Genius, Genius like Mozart or that stuff. He's kind of like John Cage legned wise.


He still has more cute factor then any of them 

[Jason]

This is an interesting thread, and I appreciate everyone's comments.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think we're all way too close to the situation, too subjective, to paraphrase Mike Love.  I mean, come on, Brian has touched our lives...  I've said this before but the only thing I'm willing to consider Brian as a genius is a genius at affecting me.

[Surfer Joe]

Yes and no.



He is a genius in horn sections in pop


He's not Genius, Genius like Mozart or that stuff. He's kind of like John Cage legned wise.


He still has more cute factor then any of them 

I don't know- when that Mozart wrinkled his nose he was pretty darned adorable.

[NimrodsSon]

I would almost say I agree that Brian's not at all in the same league as Bach or Beethoven or Chopin (I don't care much for Mozart, but perhaps that's because I don't listen to much of his music), but when I think about, Brian probably is on the same level as these great composers, in his genre of music. While These composers created some of the most beautiful music ever in their genres, I doubt very much that any of them (other than possibly Chopin) could write a decent pop song. And while the music of Bach moves me much more than Brian's music, that is not necessarily because Brian is an inferior composer to Bach, but rather because for me personally Baroque music moves me more than pop music in general. A lot of Beethoven's music moves me more than Bach's (and Paul Williams' album Someday Man moves me more than any of those), but I still think Bach is the greatest composer who ever lived. It's just a difference in genres. So yes, in my opinion, Brian Wilson is a pop music genius, and a production genius (which should not be disputed in my opinion). Of course, we should all remember that music is completely, 100 per cent. subjective (as is the definition of the word genius, or so it would seem).

[Surfer Joe]

Very well said.

Though I'm far from a music scholar, I've never accepted that classical music as a genre or a form is somehow superior to other forms of music- intellectually or artistically.  Having said that, though, here are some classical composers who have scored on the pop charts:

Bach: "A Lover's Concerto", for the Toys.  I think Mike Love did the lyrics and added some hooks.  JSB also kicked in for part of "Lady Lynda".

Rachmaninoff: "Never Gonna Fall In Love Again" and "All By Myself" for Eric Carmen.

"Opus 17"- The Four Seasons- was that an original melody?

Beethoven added a few licks to ELO's cover of "Roll Over Beethoven".

Strauss:  "Also Sprach Zarathustra" for Deodato

Ponchielli: "Camp Grenada"  for Allan Sherman

There are many others.

But Brian Wilson is a genius.

Wile E. Coyote is a super genius.

[no]

"Pet Sounds" at 23 years of age.

Foda this -- for all of his hard work would be useless, as it is a non-creation without his instinct, which IS his genius.

[Ron]

Just to be a jerk, i'm gonna mention that the Toy's "Lovers Concerto" isn't considered a Bach melody anymore, I think they (scholars) have all but agreed it was one of Bach's students who wrote it.  I think it's called "Minuet in G" (minor).  Bach's actual "Minuet in G" major is very good, though, I think. 

I wasn't insinuating that Brian was as good as Beethoven, or on Beethoven's level, but I think the same blood flows through their veins if you know what I mean. 

[Daniel S.]

Brian isn't in the same league as Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach, I'm afraid. Just my opinion.

He sure is. They made music for their time and Brian made music for his. Just because it's a two and half minute pop ditty doesn't it make it less great or complex.

[Surfer Joe]

Just to be a jerk, i'm gonna mention that the Toy's "Lovers Concerto" isn't considered a Bach melody anymore, I think they (scholars) have all but agreed it was one of Bach's students who wrote it.  I think it's called "Minuet in G" (minor).  Bach's actual "Minuet in G" major is very good, though, I think. 

Would you believe me if I said that I meant to say that?  I didn't think so.  But I did, though only because I had just looked it on Wikipedia before posting, and it said the same thing.  Anyway, good call.  (Jerk). 

[matt 1234]

its funny that you said genius would have to be applied to the doors and pink floyd. jim morrison was a genius, an actual genius on the I.Q. scale, and its 130 which the genius level applies. its just funny that you mentioned the doors cause jim was a genius, i dunno if brian is but the music he made sure makes you wonder.  the other composers you mentioned, all the classical ones.... werent they all nuts as well?

[Surfer Joe]

I wouldn't consider IQ scores to be a good measure of real genius.  Just an opinion, though, and it's been pointed out repeatedly that "genius" is a highly subjective and ill-defined term.  But like pornography, we all think we know it when we see it.

A lot of people think that IQ tests are pretty darned subjective.   And I'm not just saying that because my last test led to me being legally classified as mentally challenged.

[Ron]

Have you ever taken one of those tests online?  I did one time, and it was all "wow, you're in the top 1 percentile, you're so smart!" so I thought "man, that's great!".  Then I saw a King of the Hill episode where they insinuated that everyone who takes one online gets really high scores so they can scam you out of money.  LOL.  I haven't been the same since. 

[Mitchell]

Wile E. Coyote is a super genius.

Thank you!

[Aegir]

Have you ever taken one of those tests online?  I did one time, and it was all "wow, you're in the top 1 percentile, you're so smart!" so I thought "man, that's great!".  Then I saw a King of the Hill episode where they insinuated that everyone who takes one online gets really high scores so they can scam you out of money.  LOL.  I haven't been the same since. 

All the online tests I take say I have no social skills.

One even told me I was ugly!