Frank Zappa's We're Only In It For The Money

[The Song Of The Grange]

Any folks out there who know a bit about Frank Zappa?  Someone on this board awhile back suggested I listen to We're Only In It For The Money because I was looking for 1967 albums that sounded a little like how Smile would have sounded (this is how I also tracked down the original version of Usher's "My World Fell Down" with the sound effects in the middle).  I loved the Zappa record from the start and noticed that he was doing a lot of editing in a fashion very similar to BW's "Good Vibrations" style, and BW's modular technique in general.

What I am wondering is how Zappa evolved to the point where he was making this kind of heavily edited music.  I know he was into Edgard Varèse and the Musique concrète artists, but to me this alone doesn't explain how he arrived at the editing style so similar to BW.  As far as I know, BW and Zappa had little to no contact, but Zappa recorded his record after Smile had pretty much fallen apart.  My best guess at the moment is that Zappa was a part of the cultural fermentation of the time, and just so happened to arrive upon similar solutions as BW for integrating the cut-up style into pop music.  In a more general way many groups at the same moment were messing around with putting sound effects and other recordings into their songs, but no one but Zappa, BW, and to a limited extent, the Beatles really got into the chopping up of versus and choruses as far as I know (I would love to know if there were others).  In the wider view, lots of groups were messing around with this musique concrete-ish style: Pink Floyd, Gary Usher & Curt Boettcher with Sagittarius, the Stones with stuff like Their Satanic Majesties Request and "She's A Rainbow" etc).

Any thoughts on how Zappa got to the point he was at during We're Only In It For The Money?

[dogear]

yOU CAN ALREADY FIND TRAITS OF THAT TECHNIQUE IN HIS FIRST TWO ALBUMS FREAK OUT 1966 and Absolutely Free 1967. Before recording We're in it... a six months residency at the Garrick Theatre NYC might have helped to get more into that style.

[the captain]

Stop giving more credit to BW than he is due.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Stop giving more credit to BW than he is due.

I'm not giving BW anymore credit than he should get.  I am trying to figure out how Frank Zappa evolved into the style he used on We're Only In It For The Money, which has strong similarities to the editing techniques BW was using around the same time.

[Jason]

The only connection Brian had with Frank was through David Anderle, who was instrumental in helping Frank get into what would become a very unhappy deal with MGM in 1966. David had mentioned playing some selections from Absolutely Free for Brian, saying that Brian was "freaked out" by it. Some people claim that Call Any Vegetable from the aforementioned LP was a "reaction" of Frank's to what Brian was doing, but I doubt that's the case.

Whatever parallels are to be drawn between Brian and Frank's music are purely coincidental. Brian most likely had no knowledge whatsoever about the work of Varese, Babbitt, Cage, and various other avant-garde composers who meddled with tape during the 1950s and 1960s, and I HIGHLY doubt his gang of hangers-on during 1966-67 had any knowledge of them, either.

Frank did comment once about Little Deuce Coupe, saying the idea of a 1-2-5 rock 'n roll chord progression was very novel. He was apparently quite impressed. The general consensus is that Frank respected Brian and his craft, but I doubt there was any major or even minor influence. Frank insisted over and over that his main influences were Varese and any number of obscure doo-wop groups.

[the captain]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be overly combative. But when I first read the post, the subtext I took from the original post was "if not for Brian, how could someone have gotten to this point?" If you didn't mean it that way, apologies.

What I'd be sure to emphasize is that tape manipulation had been a part of serious/classical music for more than a decade by the point of these pop experiments with it, and that's the kind of stuff Frank was into. I know you say "to me this alone doesn't explain..." but I'd just disagree right there. I think it does. That's what it was: taking pieces of tape and reassembling them, sometimes by chance, sometimes by design. Around the time of Absolutely Free (1967), Frank gave an interview where he also talked about rehearsing his band to play that way live, too, "impersonating" edits by awkwardly jumping between bits and sounds. (Anyway, I think by the time Brian was doing Smile, Frank was based in New York. If that's the case, I doubt they were checking each other out.)

Frank and Brian did have a little more in common: they both made use of certain LA-area studio musicians and industry people. Dig through liners and you'll see Jim Guercio, Carol Kaye, Nick Venet credited for various contributions to Zappa.

[yrplace]

Well there's at least one connection...... both Steve Desper and I worked for Frank in the mid 70's. I was a huge fan and it was an honor to work for and know him.
He was friendly, unassuming and a consummate artist, kind of like another fella from Ca. that I have been lucky enough to work with.

I would suggest you also check out  Freak Out, Frank's first and perhaps best album....... Mark Linett

[the captain]

both Steve Desper and I worked for Frank in the mid 70's.

I forgot about Desper (and didn't know about you!). Steve was nice enough to comment on this board some time ago, as he worked with Frank on the road. I'd love to hear anything you have to say about it, too, Mark. Did you ever work in studio with Frank, or were you also on-hand in the live situation?

[yrplace]

i was the live sound mixer in 74 and 75. My first tour was the Bongo Fury tour that featured Capt. Beefheart (another wonderful fellow) During the 2nd tour we did spend a week at Capircorn Studios in Macon, Ga. doing tracks that eventually ended up on Zoot Alllures . At the end of that tour Frank decided to take some time off and regroup and as a result he let everyone go. I was offered a job mixing for Earth Wind & Fire and when Frank called me a few months later asking me to come back it was to late. I saw him a few times years later at Sunset Sound where I was then working as a  staff engineer . Wish I could have worked with him more........ Mark

[the captain]

That is amazing that you were able to be on a tour that included Frank and the Cap'n. I've read that Frank wasn't very happy with Vliet on that tour, mostly letting Beefheart sit on stage doing nothing (or drawing) for the bulk of the shows, then just getting up and doing a few of his tunes from the Bongo album. I'd love to hear anything you're willing to tell about that work! I'm always really interested in Zappa, largely because while he's often put down for being a bit aloof, he also seems to have run his operation as a real business, which is of course beneficial or detrimental to the musicians or crew probably depending on their own tendencies. Also, while I admit my favorite Zappa (and Beefheart) is from the mid-to-late 60s, I'm a pretty big fan of both of their early-to-mid-70s output.

[yrplace]

Those stories are just plain wrong.......

I recall nothing but good feelings all around on that tour. Don would come out and do several songs during the Mothers' set which was always a high point of the show. We all travelled together on the same bus and it was perhaps the friendliest tour I ever did. Just a bunch of great people.
Best night was in El Paso  when Jimmy Carl Black ("the indian of the group" ) visited and then did two songs with the band ........

I also vividly recall Don coming down the hall at some hotel throwing ice cubes from a bucket of ice and saying "diamonds!, diamonds!". He also drew a caricature of me which I somehow managed to lose, much to my regret.

Saw him again ten years later when I was working at Amigo, Warner Bros Records Studio and he was there doing his "Bat Chain Puller" album.....Mark

[the captain]

Great to know there were good vibes between them (as I am happy to know they reconciled whatever issues they have before Frank died). Do you happen to know whether Don was doing the "real" (still officially unreleased) Bat Chain Puller at that time, or the eventual Shiny Beast (Bat Chain Puller)? The former, I think, is awesome. The different versions of various tunes--particularly the title track--are just amazingly powerful. I saw Gary Lucas speak/play along with a brass group in a Beefheart-themed evening a few years ago (kind of weird, I know, but amazing), and he had a video that also played some of Don's stuff from that era. Really tremendous. Mark, I really appreciate these and any other comments about this topic. Zappa and Beefheart were loves of mine before the Beach Boys, actually, and they're both very near to my heart.

[Aegir]

"What's the Ugliest Part of Your Body" is clearly Brian-influenced.

[the captain]

I would totally disagree with that: it's more like Brian in that they shared some influences. The basic tune is really very straight doo-wop, a basic chord progression. Then the next part that gets into the abnormal parts (all your children are poor unfortunate...) is entirely unlike Brian--more like Stravinsky in terms of rhythm and accents.

[Aegir]

I know, I was joking. The issue was whether or not the cut-and-paste style of Good Vibrations influence Zappa, so I thought it would be humorous to mention the doo-wop song as being influenced by Brian.

[the captain]

I'll say this: I think you and I have a 100% track record of not recognizing when the other is joking on this board!

[JK]

Frank did comment once about Little Deuce Coupe, saying the idea of a 1-2-5 rock 'n roll chord progression was very novel. He was apparently quite impressed. The general consensus is that Frank respected Brian and his craft, but I doubt there was any major or even minor influence. Frank insisted over and over that his main influences were Varese and any number of obscure doo-wop groups.

Interestingly perhaps----sorry to dig up this ancient topic!----"Brown Shoes Don't Make It", which takes up much of the original side two of Absolutely Free (the album preceding WOIIFTM), includes a brief parody of 'LDC" which winds down with something not a million miles away from the opening riff of "Help Me Rhonda"...

Here, beginning at 4:53...