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Author Topic: The Beach Boys: Music and Sexuality  (Read 11116 times)
The Heartical Don
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 04:32:34 AM »


 There is not a trace of camp in the music, and precious little irony.


I agree with almost everything but this...have you seen Mike Love on stage? In his gold lame outfits and Coronation Street hairnet and mincing up the place? He outcamps Jagger.

 LOL I'd think that Mike secretly suffered from his early balding pate, and 'needed' something sorely to make up for that, to prove his personality. Perhaps that is why he re-married so frequently with very young girls also. Was Mike abused as a child too? I would not be surprised at all if he were.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 04:53:54 AM »

I'd think that Mike secretly suffered from his early balding pate, and 'needed' something sorely to make up for that, to prove his personality. Perhaps that is why he re-married so frequently with very young girls also. Was Mike abused as a child too? I would not be surprised at all if he were.

That's taking it a bit far isn't it? Mke has been married to younger women and slept around because that's the type of person he is. Not exactly unusual for rock stars to behave like that and the women obviously should know what to expect.
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 05:12:46 AM »

I'd think that Mike secretly suffered from his early balding pate, and 'needed' something sorely to make up for that, to prove his personality. Perhaps that is why he re-married so frequently with very young girls also. Was Mike abused as a child too? I would not be surprised at all if he were.

That's taking it a bit far isn't it? Mke has been married to younger women and slept around because that's the type of person he is. Not exactly unusual for rock stars to behave like that and the women obviously should know what to expect.

Might be. Opinions may differ and that is a good thing.
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Synth Wash
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 08:01:27 AM »

I hope this observation is taken in the right spirit, but since my first listen of BWPS, I'm always jarred by the opening vocals of "Child is the Father of the Man". The first vocals after the instrumental opening of this song sound like "child, child, the child, father of the fag, father of the man". This is probably just the next "f" sound of father bleeding into the word "man", so I highly doubt it's intentional, but you never know. Since we're getting into Murry and childhood trauma, maybe that was a derogatory term he used on his sons?
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 09:08:56 AM »

I hope this observation is taken in the right spirit, but since my first listen of BWPS, I'm always jarred by the opening vocals of "Child is the Father of the Man". The first vocals after the instrumental opening of this song sound like "child, child, the child, father of the fag, father of the man". This is probably just the next "f" sound of father bleeding into the word "man", so I highly doubt it's intentional, but you never know. Since we're getting into Murry and childhood trauma, maybe that was a derogatory term he used on his sons?

It's just the alternating lines saying"father" right as the previous alternating lines are saying "man." I don't think it was meant in purpose to produce that word.
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 09:09:17 AM »

Interesting thread.  I think Brian was uncertainof his masculinity at times, or just had trouble relating at the right level in male female relationships.  He tried to put his feelings into songs.  He was quite the romantic in his imaginings about relationships.  He wrote like a very sensitive guy.  

I recall a few times reading about Brian apologizing about his falsetto...sounding like a girl...wanting to be more of a rocker.

As someone said, Brian did engage in sublimation.  If not truly sublimation as in the unconcious defense mechanism sense, certainly in a deliberate way as in the period, mentioned by Marilyn in an interview, where Brian obstained from sex to channel more of his "essence" into music...(she said he had sex but didn't allow himself to reach climax).
Very dedicated approach I'd say.

We certainly can't forget Mike prancing around in gold lame and a turbin.  Of course Mike has been more of a Zelig changing his stage personna according to the time and circumstances.

Songs, such as Good Time, are clearly to me, more suited to Am Spring than the Beach Boys.

I don't know about Bruce.  I love the guy but there is a show tune quality about him.  Nuff said about that.

Dennis was a raging Hetero from all I've read.

I guess the Beach Boys are/were the sum of their parts.  There was a certain sensitivity and sense of awe and wonder coming from Brian...tinged with a bit of sorrow and wistfulness.   To me, this was the essence , the true essence, of the band.  

I sometimes wonder with all of the people willing to "come out" these days, which celebs from a previous generation might have come out if they had been born later.  That would be a thread unto itself once started.
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Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 10:54:45 AM »

I guess the BBs were never c*ck rock - except maybe in the early days - and, unfortunately, for some people (usually certain males aged anywhere between ten and ninety), c*ck rock is all that matters.  I saw Clapton and Steve Winwood playing some (and let's put this loosely) 'Blues' concert in New York.  Two British Invasion guys both on guitar.  I had to turn it off. A) It was deadly B) If I wanna listen to the Blues, give me Robert Johnson etc and C) I had this awful image of Steve Hoffman board guys spilling their seed in excitement.  Not a pretty thought.  Whatever it is the BB did, thank God they did it their way - striped shirts or beads, turbans or Nudie suits.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 11:23:28 AM by Smilin Ed H » Logged
SloopJohnB
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 11:17:51 AM »

Dennis was a raging Hetero from all I've read.


I've read somewhere (Gaines' book?) that Dennis said he had been raped by black guys many times. If I remember correctly, the author was saying that he had reasons to believe that Dennis had not been raped, and that it probably was some kind of fantasy.

EDIT Here's what Gaines says about it (mods, feel free to remove the quote if you think it's not appropriate, but I think it's "fair use")

"Dennis later told friends that he was raped by a black man while in jail that night. He also told friends that he had once stopped to help a stranded motorist and was dragged into an alley by three black men and raped. And on another occasion, he claimed he was raped by a black handyman on his boat, the Harmony. He would also later claim to be raped by a black man in the alley behind his first wife Carol's house in 1982. Obviously, this was a recurring fantasy, and whether or not any of these stories is true remains unknown."
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 11:34:07 AM by SloopJohnB » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2009, 11:22:28 AM »

Dennis and Brian should have both been arrested for Indecent Behavior With A Hamburger and Carnal Knowledge Of Underdeveloped Song Ideas back in 1981.
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Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2009, 11:29:37 AM »

"The actual gay connections to the group are few and far between."  Curt Becher and Andy Paley - who knows who else.  Remember, it wasn't the done thing to advertise such things back then...
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2009, 11:48:58 AM »

I believe pronounced sexual suggestion and innuendo in pop music began with the British invasion.And not just the Beatles and Stones, either. The Who, Kinks, Animals, Them, ad nauseum were a lot
more blatant. On our side of the pond Pat Boone and Roy Orbison were still scratching out a living.
The Beach Boys were wholesome enough to be typecast in their careers for years to come, while the
Euro's set the trends.
No offense, but that's ridiculous. What about Long Tall Sally? Or Tutti Frutti? Hell, Rock Around The Clock pre=dates both of those songs. Don't forget Good Golly Miss Molly, who sure liked to ball.


You know, I just had a discussion about that on another forum. Short: Fact is that many people try nowadays to make something sexual out of something that hasn't got anything to do with it. "Good golly miss Molly" "Goodness, gracious, great balls of fire" and stuff, were common expressions in the then popular teenage-slang, meaning "Great"or "Cool". There are just a few examples that really have those sexal conncections and they are mostly not in rock'n'roll-songs but in blues-tunes (which often were then recorded by rock'n'roll-artists). Like the famous "one-eyed-cat peepin' in a sea food store". But the rock'n'roll-songs were written for young people and of course with sales in mind. It was alot more innocent than people try to tell you today. It's because in these times you can't sell anything without having some "f*ck"s in the lyrics or a video full of naked women, just because the product isn't good enough. That's one point. I don't want to get into the other. Anyway, back to rock'n'roll, the sexual thing was in the performances, but it's another question if you'd call it sexual or just sensual (like emotional). I'm very well informed about the music of that periode(s) and that point is something that always bothers me. All in all there's much more whitewashing and missing knowledge and understanding for pre-60s music, which is a big, big shame. (I'm not talking about you, Jay. Just in case it looked lke that)
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To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.

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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2009, 11:50:47 AM »

Dennis was a raging Hetero from all I've read.


I've read somewhere (Gaines' book?) that Dennis said he had been raped by black guys many times. If I remember correctly, the author was saying that he had reasons to believe that Dennis had not been raped, and that it probably was some kind of fantasy.

EDIT Here's what Gaines says about it (mods, feel free to remove the quote if you think it's not appropriate, but I think it's "fair use")

"Dennis later told friends that he was raped by a black man while in jail that night. He also told friends that he had once stopped to help a stranded motorist and was dragged into an alley by three black men and raped. And on another occasion, he claimed he was raped by a black handyman on his boat, the Harmony. He would also later claim to be raped by a black man in the alley behind his first wife Carol's house in 1982. Obviously, this was a recurring fantasy, and whether or not any of these stories is true remains unknown."


Sounds to me like a running-gag, not like a sexua fantasy
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a diseased bunch of mo'fos if there ever was one… their beauty is so awesome that listening to them at their best is like being in some vast dream cathedral decorated with a thousand gleaming American pop culture icons.

- Lester Bangs on The Beach Boys


PRO SHOT BEACH BOYS CONCERTS - LIST


To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.

- Jack Rieley
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2009, 12:05:14 PM »

I've read somewhere (Gaines' book?) that Dennis said he had been raped by black guys many times. If I remember correctly, the author was saying that he had reasons to believe that Dennis had not been raped, and that it probably was some kind of fantasy.

EDIT Here's what Gaines says about it (mods, feel free to remove the quote if you think it's not appropriate, but I think it's "fair use")

"Dennis later told friends that he was raped by a black man while in jail that night. He also told friends that he had once stopped to help a stranded motorist and was dragged into an alley by three black men and raped. And on another occasion, he claimed he was raped by a black handyman on his boat, the Harmony. He would also later claim to be raped by a black man in the alley behind his first wife Carol's house in 1982. Obviously, this was a recurring fantasy, and whether or not any of these stories is true remains unknown."


Sounds to me like a running-gag, not like a sexua fantasy

That's how I tend to see it as well, but who knows?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:06:39 PM by SloopJohnB » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2009, 12:25:11 PM »

I thought the whole Andy Paley thing was unsubstantiated -- he talks about going on double dates with his girlfriend and Brian and Melinda in the Carlin book.

I'm impressed with everyone, by the way -- this is a great discussion. My own thoughts on the topic are many and confused -- as was my additional post. My original germ of a question was "why are there no gay Beach Boys fans," but then I realized that likely wasn't true (or able to be substantiated in any definite way). But then I realized that even asking that first question brought out issues of the BB's relationship with women, relationship, sexuality, etc. A lot of you guys have done a better job of teasing that out than I did.

Fantastic point earlier about Little Richard -- it's commonly forgotten that one of the fathers of rock was essentially a screaming queen. And that strain of outre showmanship has been a key factor throughout the R&R era -- even in the straightest of acts. But not with the BBs, for whatever reason (yes, I know about Mike and his close relationship with gold outfits, but that just never registered as camp to me -- maybe it's not camp if you're trying too hard).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:30:40 PM by claymcc » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2009, 12:27:33 PM »

"The actual gay connections to the group are few and far between."  Curt Becher and Andy Paley - who knows who else.  Remember, it wasn't the done thing to advertise such things back then...

At least one more.
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2009, 12:48:37 PM »

I've read somewhere (Gaines' book?) that Dennis said he had been raped by black guys many times. If I remember correctly, the author was saying that he had reasons to believe that Dennis had not been raped, and that it probably was some kind of fantasy.

EDIT Here's what Gaines says about it (mods, feel free to remove the quote if you think it's not appropriate, but I think it's "fair use")

"Dennis later told friends that he was raped by a black man while in jail that night. He also told friends that he had once stopped to help a stranded motorist and was dragged into an alley by three black men and raped. And on another occasion, he claimed he was raped by a black handyman on his boat, the Harmony. He would also later claim to be raped by a black man in the alley behind his first wife Carol's house in 1982. Obviously, this was a recurring fantasy, and whether or not any of these stories is true remains unknown."


Sounds to me like a running-gag, not like a sexua fantasy

That's how I tend to see it as well, but who knows?
Yeah, usually guys who are raped don't enjoy talking about their experiences like that.  Smiley
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SloopJohnB
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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 01:07:14 PM »


Yeah, usually guys who are raped don't enjoy talking about their experiences like that.  Smiley

Unless they're masochists!  Smokin
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2009, 01:10:49 PM »

"The actual gay connections to the group are few and far between."  Curt Becher and Andy Paley - who knows who else.  Remember, it wasn't the done thing to advertise such things back then...

At least one more.

Apart from Jack Reiley?

Tandyn Almer?

And i still find it hard to believe Van Dyke Parks isn't a bit that way. A camp Mark Twain.

Probyn?

Jeff?

Reggie Dunbar? Anagram of U r a big bender.

all in jest, of course.

Gene Landy must be, surely.
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« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2009, 01:11:31 PM »


I'm impressed with everyone, by the way -- this is a great discussion. My own thoughts on the topic are many and confused -- as was my additional post. My original germ of a question was "why are there no gay Beach Boys fans," but then I realized that likely wasn't true (or able to be substantiated in any definite way). But then I realized that even asking that first question brought out issues of the BB's relationship with women, relationship, sexuality, etc. A lot of you guys have done a better job of teasing that out than I did.


Yeah, I'm not sure you could make a generalization about BBs fans. In footage of concerts you see a lot of women in bikinis on their boyfriends' shoulders and all that, and yet most SERIOUS fans tend to be men. Then you might think, "They're straight men, because of the cars and girls thing." Superficial fandom may depend on what a band represents, and not on the music itself. I mean, who DO gay music fans like? Judy Garland? Bette Midler? Madonna? Lady Gaga? That's another generalization, but the idea--or stereotype-- is that gay males love to idolize strong women (not sensitive men).  The music is really what Brian's stuff is about, when it comes down to it, and ideally that should transcend gender and sexual orientation. I know Rufus Wainwright loves Brian's music, as does Elton John, for what it's worth. By the way, Rufus's music is often openly gay (meaning he refers to attractive men), and I think most of his fans are straight women.
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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2009, 01:34:33 PM »

Probyn and Jeff are (or in JF's case, possibly were) married to ladies. And Landy had Alexandra Morgan.

And yes, the VD Parks thing has crossed my mind numerous times -- but I think that's just how he is.
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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2009, 03:54:59 PM »

What - Andy Paley's gay? I thought that he said in the BBC Wouldn't It Be Nice Documentary something like "When I was a kid I used to hear the Beach Boys and songs talkimg about bikini clad girls etc - it sounded like paradise"
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« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2009, 11:38:58 PM »

I wouldn't call Manson gay but I heard that he got in trouble in jail for sodomy in the early sixties. I guess he was violent with the guy. The Dennis rape strory and the Brian with Almer thing would be a good question for Mr. Gaines.
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Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2009, 11:50:14 PM »

Steve Levine?

This is silly and probably not important.  My wife has no time for the BB.  I don't really know any women who do (except for one who's gay!); most of my male friends like their music, though some aren't what you'd call fans.  None of them, however, have much time for 22 minute c*ck rock guitar solos (not that there's anything wrong with that) , though that's not to say they don't like the odd solo per se... I think the image of BW struggling with his masculinity could be refined, perhaps, to one of him struggling with the stereotypical conception of masculinity.

I've often wondered about the (stereotypical) 'rock' fan's distaste for BW's music and wondered if it's because the majority isn't guitar-derived.  At best, BW and DW were striving for 'something else' outside of the genre but with many recognisable generic elements.
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2009, 03:12:44 AM »

Isn't being a 'serious fan' a male thing in itself? I know no woman who is a collector, a hoarder, a completist in pop music. Women tend to:

1. not being positive about a big hi-fi set in the living room;

2. asking frequently: 'don't you have enough CD's by now?'.

As for point (1), hi-fi buffs have coined the acronym: WAF (wife acceptance factor). A mini-all-in-one set will do fine, esp. if it's in pink. All other sets will inevitably lead to divorce.
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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2009, 03:26:16 AM »

Isn't being a 'serious fan' a male thing in itself? I know no woman who is a collector, a hoarder, a completist in pop music.

How many Boyzone/Take That/Daniel O'Donnell fans tend to be men? The tea making gender can certainly hoard and collect as much as anyone...
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