BEACH BOYS PBS 'AMERICAN MASTERS' SPECIAL IS IN THE WORKS

[TdHabib]

By the way, for the curmudgeon who doubted Brian's recent developments, I have two recordings of Brian's recent shows and he is indeed in top form...makes a few mistakes but every performer does. He sings and communicates better than I've ever heard him on stage.

And to the Real BB, can you please check your PMs?

[Jon Stebbins]

By the way, for the curmudgeon who doubted Brian's recent developments, I have two recordings of Brian's recent shows and he is indeed in top form...makes a few mistakes but every performer does. He sings and communicates better than I've ever heard him on stage.

Brian's Back!

[Jon Stebbins]

The Beach Boys...the best band with the most ignorant fans.

I think this statement would make a great thread.

[Wirestone]

I don't know if I would call it ignorance, although there are some who are less informed than others (such is the nature of any fandom). I would actually wager that the average poster on this board knows far more about the group than is good for them.

But the group does have strong partisans on many sides, which can affect how one views developments about the group. Brian was for many years the only one who was accorded any critical or biographical respect. Thankfully that has changed, partly due to the efforts of folks like Jon, who have done yeoman's work in spotlighting Dennis and Dave. But the lens through which you view the group -- or if you see it as a group first and foremost -- will lead to wildly different takes on practically any event involving them. (Well, except that Stars and Stripes sucked.)

And I don't know if I'd say Brian is back. He's certainly not his "old self," and never will be. But the recent tour was pretty surprising, as folks here can attest.

[MBE]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

[TdHabib]

By the way, for the curmudgeon who doubted Brian's recent developments, I have two recordings of Brian's recent shows and he is indeed in top form...makes a few mistakes but every performer does. He sings and communicates better than I've ever heard him on stage.

Brian's Back!

Not quite, I'm sorry if I come out all fanboy...I meant as I've ever heard him on stage in a BW show over the last ten years. I was just being sincere and I hope that you don't think I'm a bandwagon person....

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hello, from Barbara Ann.  This is  the second time I have ever been on the internet.  A couple of weeks ago I gave a review of my opinion on going to see Brian Wilson in concert.  I asked anyone (on Brian's site) to let me know when Brian would be back in the Munhall Pgh area.  I was sorry that no one would respond.  After reading today of the PBS special I have to ask why and how it is going to be worthy of credibility if Brian is not involved?  I realize that for some insane reason Mike Love has the rights to the Beach Boy name, however he is only one member of THE BEACH BOYS.  I think is a shame that Mike is able to jade the rememberance and the heart and soul of the group (any of the Wilsons) will have input on the project.  I for one will not tune in.

Good for you! Although the first part of AGD's post is correct, the second part is purly his viewpoint. And please feel more than free to express that you feel that it is insane for Mike Love to have the Brian Wilson approved right to call him and Bruce the BB's. We all know its not even close to being the BB's-just a copy band (you know, like the ones they feature on PBS) who is far too available. If you want authenticity, not baboonery, just stick with Brian-he wrote most of it anyway.

Pray, when did you last see a Mike & Bruce show, that you may know what you're talking about ? 

[Jon Stebbins]

By the way, for the curmudgeon who doubted Brian's recent developments, I have two recordings of Brian's recent shows and he is indeed in top form...makes a few mistakes but every performer does. He sings and communicates better than I've ever heard him on stage.

Brian's Back!

Not quite, I'm sorry if I come out all fanboy...I meant as I've ever heard him on stage in a BW show over the last ten years. I was just being sincere and I hope that you don't think I'm a bandwagon person....

I'm just joking, and glad you took it so well.

[Ed Roach]

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

Amen!  Kind of gotta' love this one!

[Wirestone]

All this being said, can we please keep the word "baboonery" in circulation, please? It's too good to lose.

Perhaps we can use it to describe Joe Thomas or something ...

[oldsurferdude]

All this being said, can we please keep the word "baboonery" in circulation, please? It's too good to lose.

Perhaps we can use it to describe Joe Thomas or something ...

Couldn't resist the word and yes, it is in the dictionary-

[oldsurferdude]

Hello, from Barbara Ann.  This is  the second time I have ever been on the internet.  A couple of weeks ago I gave a review of my opinion on going to see Brian Wilson in concert.  I asked anyone (on Brian's site) to let me know when Brian would be back in the Munhall Pgh area.  I was sorry that no one would respond.  After reading today of the PBS special I have to ask why and how it is going to be worthy of credibility if Brian is not involved?  I realize that for some insane reason Mike Love has the rights to the Beach Boy name, however he is only one member of THE BEACH BOYS.  I think is a shame that Mike is able to jade the rememberance and the heart and soul of the group (any of the Wilsons) will have input on the project.  I for one will not tune in.

Good for you! Although the first part of AGD's post is correct, the second part is purly his viewpoint. And please feel more than free to express that you feel that it is insane for Mike Love to have the Brian Wilson approved right to call him and Bruce the BB's. We all know its not even close to being the BB's-just a copy band (you know, like the ones they feature on PBS) who is far too available. If you want authenticity, not baboonery, just stick with Brian-he wrote most of it anyway.

Pray, when did you last see a Mike & Bruce show, that you may know what you're talking about ? 

when they come to Philly, we"ll go see them-I'll pick 'em apart while you defend them-could be interesting-and leave your gun at home.

[b00ts]

Good for you! Although the first part of AGD's post is correct, the second part is purly his viewpoint. And please feel more than free to express that you feel that it is insane for Mike Love to have the Brian Wilson approved right to call him and Bruce the BB's. We all know its not even close to being the BB's-just a copy band (you know, like the ones they feature on PBS) who is far too available. If you want authenticity, not baboonery, just stick with Brian-he wrote most of it anyway.

He's an englishman. Those savages don't have guns.

[b00ts]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

I'm going to have the above paragraph inscribed on a golden plaque and hung with pride above the entrance to my shack.

[KokoMoses]

"Hello, from Barbara Ann.  This is  the second time I have ever been on the internet.  A couple of weeks ago I gave a review of my opinion on going to see Brian Wilson in concert.  I asked anyone (on Brian's site) to let me know when Brian would be back in the Munhall Pgh area.  I was sorry that no one would respond.  After reading today of the PBS special I have to ask why and how it is going to be worthy of credibility if Brian is not involved?  I realize that for some insane reason Mike Love has the rights to the Beach Boy name, however he is only one member of THE BEACH BOYS.  I think is a shame that Mike is able to jade the rememberance and the heart and soul of the group (any of the Wilsons) will have input on the project.  I for one will not tune in."

Of course we all want THE BEACH BOYS to exist! And that means we all want Dennis and Carl alive and well too! But let's face it, Brian doesn't even want to be called "The Beach Boys"! So, what does it matter that Mike has the name? Would it be any more fair for Al to be "The Beach Boys"? Not really? Like it or not, Mike co-wrote so many songs and sang lead so many songs, that if it aint Brian taking the name, then it most surely should be Mike, ya know? Mike is actually the most instantly recognizable voice of The Beach Boys! That's arguable, of course. But there are fans out there who can't tell Brian from Carl or Al, or even Dennis, but everyone can spot Mike Love in an instant!

So, Mike has a Beach Boy-sound-alike band! So? Brian does too! And what else are they supposed to do? People show up wanting bass, drums, guitar, and full "Beach Boy" harmonies! This is almost 50 years down the line here! Let's give these guys our support, and some slack!

[MBE]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

I'm going to have the above paragraph inscribed on a golden plaque and hung with pride above the entrance to my shack.

I am glad you and Ed liked what I wrote. I really don't quite understand the fractions of fandom. I like and dislike certain records or periods but again if I follow someone's career I try to treat the person with some respect. Even if they make some artistic decisions I don't like, that doesn't take away from the qualites that first drew me in.

[Wirestone]

MBE: The issue is complex. If people primarily like the Beach Boys because of their early hits, if they feel those are the best things the group did, then they put a lot of stake in the Brian-Mike partnership, because that's what helped create those. If they're big into the group's 70s output, they'll likely think Dennis and Carl crucial to any conception of the group. And if (like me) they jumped into fandom with Brian's comeback of the mid-90s, they'll see the narrative as his story. Groups are made of shifting, component parts that people can have wildly different views on.

The Beatles and Jan and Dean are not quite fair examples, because each had a small, concentrated period of creativity. The Beatles lasted all of nine years. J&D were less than that. And the Beatles, for all that John and Paul dominated, were a true group in terms of arrangement and performance. Jan and Dean were mainly Jan's thing, even though Dean kept the flame alive on the road.

The Beach Boys, on the other hands, have 50 years of continuous group history. Four original members were still working together in the mid-90s, some 36 years after they began. All members have created solo projects. And unlike groups like the Stones, where conflict has helped spark creative tension, the conflict in the BBs has always been more fraught and family oriented (like the Kinks).

So while in a general sense I think you're quite right -- you take groups as they come, and all members make them what they are -- the peculiar circumstances of the BBs (their long history, the quite disparate creative contributions of different members at different times, the sibling-cousin rivalry) mean fans are often more factional than they might otherwise be.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Brilliant post as usual, Clay. I became a fan in the mid-90s, so yeah I tend to be more Brian-centric. Oddly enough, though, I'm not as much of a fan of the pre-Pet Sounds albums, even though that was Brian's supposed "best" work (PS excepted).

[Sheriff John Stone]

Excellent posts and points MBE and claymcc; I agree with a lot of what you wrote. If I may add another element to the equation....

I know it's not supposed to matter, or matter as much as it does, but I think we as fans know too much. And it does - for some people, including me - affect the way I view and hear an artist's music. I'm not talking about the Charles Manson or Phil Spector type issues, but the "behind the scenes" elements or the stories behind the music.

With books, magazines, and especially the internet, we know sooooooo much about a group and the songs. I'm sure you've heard Paul McCartney say on occasion to knowledgeable interviewers, "You know more about me than me."

I could go real long on this, but I'll limit it to two examples - good old Mike and Brian. I wonder how many people dislike Mike Love, not because of his voice, lyrics, or even personality, but because of his views on SMiLE, his values, his stories including "Back In The USSR", his Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame speech, or the imfamous lawsuits - all of which have nothing to do with his performance on the records or on the stage. Because of this, and other things that could be listed, people just don't like Mike. And, I believe it affects the way they hear the music - and the things they write. Of course that's their right, but I often wonder, if those people didn't know those things about Mike, outside the actual music, would they still enjoy his work or performances?

I will speak personally about Brian....Because of what I know, or think that I know, it has affected the way I feel about Brian's music. Like most of you I have tried  to read almost everything (published) there is about Brian.  But there came a time when I began to read things that bothered me, and it began to cloud my feelings about him, which in turn affected the way I heard the music. "Did he really write that song"....."Is he even playing on the track"....."Was that Melinda's decision or Brian's"....."Does Brian really give a damn"....."Is Brian just doing this for the money"....."How does Brian really feel about Mike - or Carl and Dennis for that matter"....."Should I continue to be sympathetic toward Brian or judge him for the way he really sounds".....and on and on. There are times when I wish I knew nothing about Brian, and, yet, his "story" does add some depth to some of the songs. I can remember my early days of listening to the Beach Boys and the pure joy that I experienced. While I still enjoy every Beach Boys' album - every one - the way Brian's solo career has been handled, manipulated, and "sold", has directly affected the way I view- and ultimately enjoy - his music.

I know that's not the way it's supposed to be. If we judged every musician by the type of person they really are, or the way they approached their career, well, we wouldn't enjoy too much music. And, it's funny, but among my favorite artists are Frank Sinatra, Jim Morrison, Johnny Cash, and The New York Dolls. What a bunch of swell guys they were, huh?

[GoodToMyBaby]

And, it's funny, but among my favorite artists are Frank Sinatra, Jim Morrison, Johnny Cash, and The New York Dolls. What a bunch of swell guys they were, huh?

Cash was a good man at his core

[Wirestone]

SJS -- Quite right. But I will add --

the way Brian's solo career has been handled, manipulated, and "sold", has directly affected the way I view- and ultimately enjoy - his music.

All pop music, by its nature is handled, manipulated and sold. That's part of what makes it pop music. The image is often inseparable from the musical content -- and it has been since before the days of Elvis. Sometimes we can't actually appreciate the music until enough time has passed to dull the image -- witness the recent hailing of Abba.

Because the Beach Boys have made the public airing of their dirty laundry such an integral part of the careers, it does mean that any late-career promotion of Brian Wilson runs into difficulties. But it is the nature of the entertainment industry to simplify, to gloss over, to sensationalize and sometimes outright lie. All four have happened to Brian, and he's been a willing (sometimes knowingly, sometimes not) participant.

But so has virtually every other musician signed to a major label. The difference, as you suggest, is that we know so much more that the industry's image-making crashes up against what we've seen (or strongly suspected) first-hand. Don't think that because I'm an ardent Brian supporter and defender that it doesn't affect me, or that I'm ignorant of it. I'm painfully aware, and the closer you get to Brian and his folks the murkier the waters become.

So sometimes I drop out for awhile, and at times I don't listen to the music for several months. But the music always draws me back, and I try to listen to and appreciate it as a separate thing. And Brian -- and everyone else associated with the group, from Mike to Dave to band members from all of the groups -- keeps working and creating. Sometimes (as BW's recent appearances or Mike's touring resurgence) they can still surprise.

[KokoMoses]

Wise words!

It was Kylie Minogue who once said "if you're part of a record company, I think to a degree it's fair to say that you're a manufactured product"

[Sheriff John Stone]

the way Brian's solo career has been handled, manipulated, and "sold", has directly affected the way I view- and ultimately enjoy - his music.

All pop music, by its nature is handled, manipulated and sold. That's part of what makes it pop music. The image is often inseparable from the musical content -- and it has been since before the days of Elvis.

Yes, and I don't know why Brian's situation bothers me more than the rest. But I'll try to explain it anyway.

One of the most endearing qualities in Brian's Beach Boys' music is honesty. I can literally hear it or feel it. I'll hear a song or a line and think, "That's so Brian." And I don't even know the guy! But you know what I mean....Even with an album like MIU, I can appreciate Brian's work. It wasn't Pet Sounds or Love You, but it was a true picture of where the guy was at that particular time - trying to make some nice, pleasant, Beach Boys-type music. And I appreciate(d) that. It might be a lightweight vibe, but it was a vibe nonetheless. It WAS a Brian Wilson vibe. It was a 35 year-old Brian Wilson sitting a piano and CREATING SONGS - in the moment. I felt he had an idea - his idea - of what he wanted to say musically, and did it, mostly if not entirely by himself. And that's all I ever wanted. What the record company or spinmeisters said after the fact in promoting the album (or Brian) meant nothing to me. THere wasn't very much anyway. I had a new Brian-involved Beach Boys' album and that's all I cared about. Whether you liked it or not, it was The Beach Boys, warts and all.

I don't feel that way about Brian Wilson, solo artist. I'm not gonna rehash all of it - you know how I feel. But, after Brian emerged from Landy's intervention in 1983, a helleuva lot changed - forever. Now, I don't hear that honesty, I don't feel the honesty. I don't hear Brian. I feel like I should apologize or something, but I just don't get it. Now, the spin does bother me. I DO care what it is being said and sold. Like you said, over time, maybe it won't matter. I sincerely hope you're right!

[MBE]

MBE: The issue is complex. If people primarily like the Beach Boys because of their early hits, if they feel those are the best things the group did, then they put a lot of stake in the Brian-Mike partnership, because that's what helped create those. If they're big into the group's 70s output, they'll likely think Dennis and Carl crucial to any conception of the group. And if (like me) they jumped into fandom with Brian's comeback of the mid-90s, they'll see the narrative as his story. Groups are made of shifting, component parts that people can have wildly different views on.

The Beatles and Jan and Dean are not quite fair examples, because each had a small, concentrated period of creativity. The Beatles lasted all of nine years. J&D were less than that. And the Beatles, for all that John and Paul dominated, were a true group in terms of arrangement and performance. Jan and Dean were mainly Jan's thing, even though Dean kept the flame alive on the road.

The Beach Boys, on the other hands, have 50 years of continuous group history. Four original members were still working together in the mid-90s, some 36 years after they began. All members have created solo projects. And unlike groups like the Stones, where conflict has helped spark creative tension, the conflict in the BBs has always been more fraught and family oriented (like the Kinks).

So while in a general sense I think you're quite right -- you take groups as they come, and all members make them what they are -- the peculiar circumstances of the BBs (their long history, the quite disparate creative contributions of different members at different times, the sibling-cousin rivalry) mean fans are often more factional than they might otherwise be.

Some good points made and perhaps it being a family thing does make things more heated. There are unqiue circumstances, but but what I was trying to convey can be applied to any band, or show, or genre. Jan and Dean and the Beatles as well as all my examples were subjects I used because I am fans of those things and have seen real examples.

I guess I will explain my own experience. I became a fan in 1988 not because of Kokomo but because of seeing An American Band on TV. The Smile stuff, and the Dennis material really stood out. I bought Endless Summer liked it a lot and took it from there. I began as a full fan of the band from 1961-75 but I wasn't crazy about who they were currently. Then I read Priore and Leaf and began to hate Mike myself. I guess combined with the piss poor material they were churning out I thought for several years that Brian and Dennis only had the talent. Then I saw the Beach Boys 1993 box set tour. Mike (who was cool to me at the show), Carl, Al, and Bruce did a hell of a job and it was then that I realized how talented they all were. I still didn't like Mike too much but when he won the 1994 lawsuit I realized he did actually co-write so many of those early songs I felt I understood his role and maybe his anger more.

Then I began my own research on found a lot of fault with the anti group information and I really began to think for myself. I guess the last straw was seeing Mike booed during a film on Brian's first solo tour. It made me feel strongly that he has gotten a bad deal. He's been an ass at times, but he really was part of what made the Beach Boys who they were. In the last ten years I have really try to see the ups and downs of each individual musically and personally. So for me it's been an ever evolving thing. By getting to know them a little and the people around them I was able to give myself a better perspective and funnily enough more distance to observe the whole picture.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hello, from Barbara Ann.  This is  the second time I have ever been on the internet.  A couple of weeks ago I gave a review of my opinion on going to see Brian Wilson in concert.  I asked anyone (on Brian's site) to let me know when Brian would be back in the Munhall Pgh area.  I was sorry that no one would respond.  After reading today of the PBS special I have to ask why and how it is going to be worthy of credibility if Brian is not involved?  I realize that for some insane reason Mike Love has the rights to the Beach Boy name, however he is only one member of THE BEACH BOYS.  I think is a shame that Mike is able to jade the rememberance and the heart and soul of the group (any of the Wilsons) will have input on the project.  I for one will not tune in.

Good for you! Although the first part of AGD's post is correct, the second part is purly his viewpoint. And please feel more than free to express that you feel that it is insane for Mike Love to have the Brian Wilson approved right to call him and Bruce the BB's. We all know its not even close to being the BB's-just a copy band (you know, like the ones they feature on PBS) who is far too available. If you want authenticity, not baboonery, just stick with Brian-he wrote most of it anyway.

Pray, when did you last see a Mike & Bruce show, that you may know what you're talking about ? 

when they come to Philly, we"ll go see them-I'll pick 'em apart while you defend them-could be interesting-and leave your gun at home.

So... you're discussing and dismissing something you have no direct experience of. Thought so.  

Oh, and they've been in the Philly area multiple times over the past few years. Try a little harder.