Dennis and Charlie

[GLarson432]

Hi folks -- I have about 35 BB-related books and many include 1968.  I'm looking for opinions on what one book has the best, most comprehensive and accurate (as best we know) info on this six or so month period.

I read all of these when I got them and none since so my memory is foggy.  A friend wants to know, in short form, the story.  Hence my question. 

Thanks.

[endofposts]

Jon Stebbins' "The Real Beach Boy" and Gaines' "Heroes & Villains."  As I recall.  I haven't read most of those books in a long time, either, but I think both of those have some good information.  I don't think any book goes into it in great depth, because Dennis and the rest of the Wilsons didn't like to talk about it.

[STE]

For a second I thought this was going to be about "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia"...   

[GLarson432]

From forget marie:  Jon Stebbins' "The Real Beach Boy".

That's the first book I pulled, before posting, and is a great suggestion.  Gaines?  (again I haven't read these books in years but) Does he sum it up in a neat package?  That's what I'm looking for to pass along.  Plus, with Gaines it's hard to know what's the truth and spectulation or rumor.  I think most of that book is more true than a lot of BB fans would like to believe.  I need to read it again.

Thanks

[Mr. Wilson]

i think your right Greg..More truth than fiction ..Gaines book.

[Emdeeh]

Completely disagree on the Gaines book. It's mostly gossiping.

[endofposts]

I think the Gaines' book does have an index, so if you just want to look up the Charles Manson stuff without reading the whole book, it should be possible.  I have to admit I've never owned or read 35 Beach Boys' books (not even close, probably less than 10), so there might be people who've read others that might give you better advice.  I've never read the other Dennis Wilson book, but I think Stebbins' is more highly regarded.   I haven't read the David Leaf book in years, and I don't own it.  Maybe there's some things in there, too (and Gaines used that as one of his sources).  You might also Google the subject.  Sometimes people have things in blogs or websites where they have done some legit research or interviews that add to the subject.  

There's a very brief summary of the Dennis/Manson relationship here, including about Manson's songwriting and how that figured into it:

http://www.spinner.com/2007/03/30/twisted-tales-beach-boys-steal-song-from-charles-manson/

That was just the first story I picked up off of Google, but I'm sure there's others.  I don't think there is a lot more to it other than anecdotes, like the fact Manson was brought over to Brian Wilson's house to record at Brian's home studio.  Also, there are stories that Dennis was harrassed for years afterwards by members of the Manson family, including having them break into his house at night and rearranging his furniture (a trademark of the Manson family that they called "creepy crawling").  

[Mahalo]

i think your right Greg..More truth than fiction ..Gaines book.
[/quote

I think there is more truth to the entire BB saga than many of us would ever know about, or even want to know about...

[nobody]

I am of the opinion that most of it is intentionally suppressed by both The Beach Boys then (and now, if asked) and all their biographers like AGD here. The proof is pretty obvious if you have eyes to see.

Generally I think - not that I care one way or the other about the issue - that Dennis was good pals with Charlie before their relationship turned sour. Their relationship was strong enough for Dennis to offer Manson some free recording time at Brian's home studio set up and to record one of his songs for their album. Is Manson credited on that song? Did he ever receive profits for it before his trial (at which point, I believe, the profits from his own newly released album were decided to go to victims' families or something). I also think that Dennis probably hung out with Manson a lot when he could and was a bigger part of their scene than Beach Boy biographers will have us believe. Not that Dennis was important, mind you, to their group. He was one of many celebrities involved in that scene and he was also a good guy to lean on for money and other things. He gave Manson one of their gold records which he then used as incentive to let a ranch owner let Manson and friends stay there. Some will claim it was stolen - doubt it. It's more likely that Dennis offered it to him as a symbol of his non-attachment to such things, to please Charlie, who he clearly thought highly of.

And now the backlash. "Nope. Totally wrong. Blah blah..."

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I also think that Dennis probably hung out with Manson a lot when he could and was a bigger part of their scene than Beach Boy biographers will have us believe.

"Beach Boy Biographers"= people who know what they are talking about.

[Jason]

Someone needs to tell nobody his worded orgasm doesn't make any sense.

[Mr. Wilson]

Well i guess Dennis was close enough to Charlie to bring him to BW house..Marlyin is quoted as saying she spent lots of time disenfecting bathrooms + toliet seats because of their unkept ways..Im sure all BB met him + have STRONG opinons on the subject..Its better to stay MUM on the subject..I would.. If i trusted someone that couldnt be trusted + did the things he did or ordered..

[nobody]

I heard Brian slept with Squeeky Fromme and, due to her small build, hid her behind his pillow on his bed. Marilyn was used to foul odors so she thought nothing of it.

[Smilin Ed H]

"I heard Brian slept with Squeeky Fromme and, due to her small build, hid her behind his pillow on his bed. Marilyn was used to foul odors so she thought nothing of it."

Okay, so you have some problems: why not just share them in The Sandbox instead of hitting the bottle? At least that way I won't have to read this s-h-i-t that effortlessly pours out of you.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I am of the opinion that most of it is intentionally suppressed by both The Beach Boys then (and now, if asked) and all their biographers like AGD here. The proof is pretty obvious if you have eyes to see.

The only stuff I 'suppress' is when I'm requested to by sources. It's a simple equation - loose lips = vanishing sources.

Is Manson credited on that song? Did he ever receive profits for it before his trial

It's widely documented that Dennis offered Manson label credit and points, but he declined them in favor of a straight payment of (reportedly) $100,000 - if that's true, then Charlie came out winning heavily on that one. Manson's only stipulation was that Dennis could do what he liked with the music as long as he didn't mess with the words, whereupon Dennis promptly revised the lyric but left the melody pretty much intact. And that's what caused the initial rift with Charlie.

[Ian]

While I have a number of issues with Keith Badman's research for his book-one thing that really bugged me was his habit of placing events under a specific date when he had no real evidence.  A real glaring example-he states that Dennis met the Manson girls on a break from the April 1968 tour and places it on a specific date.  A little research showed, however, that there was no tour break. On the Date that Badman said Dennis met the Manson girls-Apr 11-he was in the South on a tour with the BBs and on the date he said that Audree was introduced to them-April 13 Dennis was in Florida (as mentioned in reviews of both supposedly canceled shows-neither of which was canceled).  Even though its just a rock and roll book-I find that irresponsible. If you don't actually know the date-just list it as Spring 1968, don't state something as a fact.  Sloppy

[Custom Machine]

It's widely documented that Dennis offered Manson label credit and points, but he declined them in favor of a straight payment of (reportedly) $100,000 - if that's true, then Charlie came out winning heavily on that one. Manson's only stipulation was that Dennis could do what he liked with the music as long as he didn't mess with the words, whereupon Dennis promptly revised the lyric but left the melody pretty much intact. And that's what caused the initial rift with Charlie.

Hey Andrew - could you elaborate on this?  $100,000 in 1968 dollars would be over $600,000 inflation adjusted dollars today.  It makes absolutely no sense to me that Dennis would have made a straight payment of such a sum to anyone simply to gain writing credits for an album cut song.  I'm not sure Dennis even had the funds to make such a straight payment back then.  I have a newspaper article from late 1968 or early 1969 (unfortunately I didn't note the date when I cut it out, probably from The San Diego Evening Tribune) headlined "Popular Singer Lives on Charity".  It states that Dennis, age 24, "earned $100,000 last year as a member of The Beachboys singing group." But "is now living in a cellar on the charity of friends".  (I would presume this would have been Greg Jakobsen's basement.)  Dennis also stated, in "a hearing over temporary support for his estranged wife, Carol, 24, pending trial of their contested divorce case" that he had "a 1937 car and $19,000 in debts".  Who reported a payment of $100,000?  The amount, as a straight payment for writing credits on one album cut song, just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Jon Stebbins]

While I have a number of issues with Keith Badman's research for his book-one thing that really bugged me was his habit of placing events under a specific date when he had no real evidence.  A real glaring example-he states that Dennis met the Manson girls on a break from the April 1968 tour and places it on a specific date.  A little research showed, however, that there was no tour break. On the Date that Badman said Dennis met the Manson girls-Apr 11-he was in the South on a tour with the BBs and on the date he said that Audree was introduced to them-April 13 Dennis was in Florida (as mentioned in reviews of both supposedly canceled shows-neither of which was canceled).  Even though its just a rock and roll book-I find that irresponsible. If you don't actually know the date-just list it as Spring 1968, don't state something as a fact.  Sloppy

That book has an annoying habit of justifying badly sourced information with completely fabricated scenarios. Its really a shame because thousands of people are thinking of it as something reliable.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's widely documented that Dennis offered Manson label credit and points, but he declined them in favor of a straight payment of (reportedly) $100,000 - if that's true, then Charlie came out winning heavily on that one. Manson's only stipulation was that Dennis could do what he liked with the music as long as he didn't mess with the words, whereupon Dennis promptly revised the lyric but left the melody pretty much intact. And that's what caused the initial rift with Charlie.

Hey Andrew - could you elaborate on this?  $100,000 in 1968 dollars would be over $600,000 inflation adjusted dollars today.  It makes absolutely no sense to me that Dennis would have made a straight payment of such a sum to anyone simply to gain writing credits for an album cut song.  I'm not sure Dennis even had the funds to make such a straight payment back then.  I have a newspaper article from late 1968 or early 1969 (unfortunately I didn't note the date when I cut it out, probably from The San Diego Evening Tribune) headlined "Popular Singer Lives on Charity".  It states that Dennis, age 24, "earned $100,000 last year as a member of The Beachboys singing group." But "is now living in a cellar on the charity of friends".  (I would presume this would have been Greg Jakobsen's basement.)  Dennis also stated, in "a hearing over temporary support for his estranged wife, Carol, 24, pending trial of their contested divorce case" that he had "a 1937 car and $19,000 in debts".  Who reported a payment of $100,000?  The amount, as a straight payment for writing credits on one album cut song, just doesn't make any sense to me.

Just checked my source, and it wasn't exactly a straight $100K payment - what Dennis actually said was "he didn't want credit, he just wanted money, so I gave him about $100,000 worth of stuff", indicating it wasn't purely cash.

And yes, that would be Gregg's basement.

[Custom Machine]

It's widely documented that Dennis offered Manson label credit and points, but he declined them in favor of a straight payment of (reportedly) $100,000 - if that's true, then Charlie came out winning heavily on that one. Manson's only stipulation was that Dennis could do what he liked with the music as long as he didn't mess with the words, whereupon Dennis promptly revised the lyric but left the melody pretty much intact. And that's what caused the initial rift with Charlie.

Hey Andrew - could you elaborate on this?  $100,000 in 1968 dollars would be over $600,000 inflation adjusted dollars today.  It makes absolutely no sense to me that Dennis would have made a straight payment of such a sum to anyone simply to gain writing credits for an album cut song.  I'm not sure Dennis even had the funds to make such a straight payment back then.  I have a newspaper article from late 1968 or early 1969 (unfortunately I didn't note the date when I cut it out, probably from The San Diego Evening Tribune) headlined "Popular Singer Lives on Charity".  It states that Dennis, age 24, "earned $100,000 last year as a member of The Beachboys singing group." But "is now living in a cellar on the charity of friends".  (I would presume this would have been Greg Jakobsen's basement.)  Dennis also stated, in "a hearing over temporary support for his estranged wife, Carol, 24, pending trial of their contested divorce case" that he had "a 1937 car and $19,000 in debts".  Who reported a payment of $100,000?  The amount, as a straight payment for writing credits on one album cut song, just doesn't make any sense to me.

Just checked my source, and it wasn't exactly a straight $100K payment - what Dennis actually said was "he didn't want credit, he just wanted money, so I gave him about $100,000 worth of stuff", indicating it wasn't purely cash.

And yes, that would be Gregg's basement.

OK, that makes sense, and I do recall reading that statement from Dennis.   I assume what Dennis was referring to was that the free rent, food, clothes, use of cars, etc, etc, that Manson and family took advantage of, both with and without Dennis's permission, eventually added up to a staggering amount of money.  When reading Dennis's statement I have always taken it to mean that he and Manson had verbally agreed that since Manson and girls were living in Dennis's house with Dennis's funding that Charlie would forgo writer's credit, rather than there being a signed agreement whereby Charlie would give up writer's credit in exchange for "about $100,000 worth of stuff".  It seems safe to assume that the costs Dennis incurred in supporting Manson and family during this time would most likely have been the same whether or not Dennis had claimed sole writing credit for Never Learn Not to Love.

[Surfer Joe]

Going back through years' worth of flawed memory here, but didn't the Bugliosi book, or something, claim that Dennis bought the song from Manson with a motorcycle?

[NHC]

It might have been mentioned here and I missed it, but the matter of Dennis and CM appeared in the 1971 Rolling Stone interview (I think it was a two-parter) that later was included in an early-70's Beach Boys songbook (Beach boys Complete, which it wasn't but still excellent).  CM gave some of the kids in my high school their first drugs and showed them some naked college girls around 1967 up on the CA north coast, then got busted for pot and headed south. After the murders, some local guys burned down the old abandoned  farm house they had crashed in.  (This was, of course, around the same time Jim Jones was teaching in our school system pre-Guyana mass suicide, bussing over a dozen or kids from the Peoples Temple to supplement our dwindling enrollment, but before the Moonies arrived to set up camp.  Quite a place, my nice quiet little country home town. Sometimes I wonder why we left. )