Are there really that many similarities between SMiLE and Sgt. Pepper?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

We've all heard Van Dyke's claims of covert listening sessions of the SMiLE music by The Beatles (a claim that pretty much sounds like a case of VDP sour grapes).  This got me to thinking; does he really think that there are that many similarities between the two albums?
I've been listening to the stereo remaster of  Sgt Pepper quite a bit recently, and nothing really stands out to me as being something that could be construed as 'stolen' from SMiLE. However, if I was Brian Wilson circa 1967, paranoid as all hell, I would probably be bothered by the use of animals on 'Good Morning, Good Morning', seeing as just a few months before I was working on a song that was centered around animal noises. Also, on 'Lovely Rita', someone makes maraca sounds with their mouth, whcih brings to mind the 'doing, doing' from Cabinessence. Also, while listening to 'Mr. Kite', my wife made the following statement; 'This sounds like the old SMiLE stuff, doesn't it?' I didn't really think so, but it still brought to mind VDP statment (and she doesn't even know the story of VDP claims).  So, I ask you, do you really think there are similarities between the two albums-enough to make someone go 'man, the Beatles ripped this off of Brian Wilson'?

[Chris Brown]

No, there really aren't a whole lot of similarities, which is why many dispute Van Dyke's claims.  If anything, I find Pepper to be more influenced by Pet Sounds, mostly via Paul's mimicking Brian's bass part arranging and style of playing.

Aside from the examples you mentioned, the only song on Pepper where I hear a possible SMiLE influence is "A Day In the Life."  Like a SMiLE track, it's done in sections, and that chaotic chromatic orchestral part is very reminiscent of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow," at least to my ears.  That doesn't really suggest that they heard any of SMiLE necessarily, but they may have caught wind of some of the things that Brian was doing and decided to try them out themselves. 

[nobody]

I think Van Dyke is referring more to the mood of both creations rather than specific things the Beatles stole. I mean, I don't have his quote at hand, but that's what I'm assuming. Where's reverend Doe with his Bible of quotes to help us out?

I'd like to believe that there was a secret operation going on at the time. Maybe Derek Taylor playing double agent, stealing Brian's music and ideas and encoding them via telegram to the Beatles in cryptic brit-speak. The evidence just doesn't really add up too well overall. And Sgt. Pepper was their own trip ... I think they came to a similar place as Brian stylistically or wutevs but it was on a more superficial level. Reading things like the Michael Vosse interview about SMiLE shows that Brian wasn't just doing nifty studio tricks with catchy pop songs but really working on some fairly abstract stuff that was well beyond what the Beets were doing. Killer Tofu. AGD needs more allowance.

[Dr. Tim]

I usually don't play in this "what-if" backyard, but look at it thus: assume both projects were on time to come out spring of 67 or so.  If Smile sounded anything like the finished pieces suggest, it would have been a series of short songs, very peculiar in structure, with mysterious titles and lyrics and short fades.  While there would be no suites, just 12 or so banded tracks, there might be some internal cross-fading and butt-splicing one song to another (i.e., no 2-second banding between songs) to seem like a never-ending parade.   The BB did it on the Party LP and Jan and Dean were already doing this.  GV would be the big finale or the side 2 opener.  The orchestrations would be peculiar (small ensembles) and dry, the songs would not make a lot of sense but suggest an atmosphere, the arrangements and vocals would keep changing up.  It could well have been a very hippy,trippy, floating in the clouds record, very psychedelic but without the dripping reverb, chanting, jamming and distortions of , say, the Dead, the Doors, or the Seeds.

Compared with the swirly, echo-y, hypnotic, brown-acid  Pepper, Smile would seem much lighter, not as bombastic or portentious, not trying to be a pathfinding record.  More of a light, slightly altered consciousness entertainment, which would suggest another place you could go - a good trip.  And obscure enough that the little kiddies would never know what the hippy trippy stuff meant.  Best of all, it would not be imitating Pepper, as "Satanic Majesties", "The Beat Goes On"  or "Once Upon A Dream" or god knows how many other late-67 releases did.  It would be in its own corner, to be judged as itself.  Critics might ponder the comparisons between the two albums coming out simultaneously, with such different muses, why one was so light in texture and feel, the other so heavy.


I actually have a somewhat obscure model for this sort of LP: "The Secret Life of Harpers Bizarre", which came out in 68 and uses this atmospheric cross-fade technique very effectively, and is a decent soft-rock LP featuring future WB executive Ted Templeman as lead singer and Lenny Waronker (future exec) as producer.  Had SMile come out sounding like that it would have been an interesting counterpart to Pepper, and as long as GV had legs,would have done well enough, though maybe no better than top 20.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think Van Dyke is referring more to the mood of both creations rather than specific things the Beatles stole. I mean, I don't have his quote at hand, but that's what I'm assuming. Where's reverend Doe with his Bible of quotes to help us out?

I'd like to believe that there was a secret operation going on at the time. Maybe Derek Taylor playing double agent, stealing Brian's music and ideas and encoding them via telegram to the Beatles in cryptic brit-speak. The evidence just doesn't really add up too well overall. And Sgt. Pepper was their own trip ... I think they came to a similar place as Brian stylistically or wutevs but it was on a more superficial level. Reading things like the Michael Vosse interview about SMiLE shows that Brian wasn't just doing nifty studio tricks with catchy pop songs but really working on some fairly abstract stuff that was well beyond what the Beets were doing. Killer Tofu. AGD needs more allowance.

We've already been through all this in excruciating detail. Bottom line - as described in the book, impossible. No-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed. Van Dyke later revised his comment in a private conversation with a friend of mine, saying that the two albums were similar because they both had sound effects.

[nobody]

I think Van Dyke is referring more to the mood of both creations rather than specific things the Beatles stole. I mean, I don't have his quote at hand, but that's what I'm assuming. Where's reverend Doe with his Bible of quotes to help us out?

I'd like to believe that there was a secret operation going on at the time. Maybe Derek Taylor playing double agent, stealing Brian's music and ideas and encoding them via telegram to the Beatles in cryptic brit-speak. The evidence just doesn't really add up too well overall. And Sgt. Pepper was their own trip ... I think they came to a similar place as Brian stylistically or wutevs but it was on a more superficial level. Reading things like the Michael Vosse interview about SMiLE shows that Brian wasn't just doing nifty studio tricks with catchy pop songs but really working on some fairly abstract stuff that was well beyond what the Beets were doing. Killer Tofu. AGD needs more allowance.

We've already been through all this in excruciating detail. Bottom line - as described in the book, impossible. No-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed. Van Dyke later revised his comment in a private conversation with a friend of mine, saying that the two albums were similar because they both had sound effects.

What if the Beatles had 1) the power of time-travel and 2) invisibility suits?

Here's my revised theory: Derek Taylor rings the Beatles who are in England. "Boys, I have some bad news. You've heard about this new album Brian Wilson is working on, right? Well, this sh*t is good, and I mean GOOD. I don't know how you can beat this..." This leaves the Beatles feeling destroyed. Paul cries, John beats his wife, George chants the mantra ombriansucksom-ombriansucksom, and Ringo drifts off into a magical land of talking trains. When all seemed to be lost, George Martin smugly struts into the room holding a folded piece of paper. "This," he says, "will solve all our problems." He unfolds the paper revealing an intricately designed time-machine of sorts, about 8ft high and six feet wide. Metal. Bolted doors. Computer panels on the inside. High-tech sh*t. The Beatles are confused. "This is the plan," says George. "We get in this thing, program it to the year 3237, find the nearest hardware shop, buy invisibility suits, get back in, set the year back to now, come back, then travel to the time when Brian began working on his new album, and in our invisibility suits we will take mental notes on the process and then come back and make the thing ourselves." Such a plan could not be refused. So, several nanoseconds later the Beatles and George Martin, in their invisibility suits, were in Brian's house hanging around the piano where he and Van Dyke were just beginning Heroes and Villains. Paul almost gave the game away while playing air piano when he knocked over a candle stick. Lucky, Brian explained to Van Dyke that far from being ordinary paranormal activity, this was the Spirit of Spector looming over their project. Phew. The rest is basically history. The Beatles and Martin returned and made Sgt. Pepper before Brian could finish his SMiLE, and they won, they beat him.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think Van Dyke is referring more to the mood of both creations rather than specific things the Beatles stole. I mean, I don't have his quote at hand, but that's what I'm assuming. Where's reverend Doe with his Bible of quotes to help us out?

I'd like to believe that there was a secret operation going on at the time. Maybe Derek Taylor playing double agent, stealing Brian's music and ideas and encoding them via telegram to the Beatles in cryptic brit-speak. The evidence just doesn't really add up too well overall. And Sgt. Pepper was their own trip ... I think they came to a similar place as Brian stylistically or wutevs but it was on a more superficial level. Reading things like the Michael Vosse interview about SMiLE shows that Brian wasn't just doing nifty studio tricks with catchy pop songs but really working on some fairly abstract stuff that was well beyond what the Beets were doing. Killer Tofu. AGD needs more allowance.

We've already been through all this in excruciating detail. Bottom line - as described in the book, impossible. No-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed. Van Dyke later revised his comment in a private conversation with a friend of mine, saying that the two albums were similar because they both had sound effects.

What if the Beatles had 1) the power of time-travel and 2) invisibility suits?

Here's my revised theory: Derek Taylor rings the Beatles who are in England. "Boys, I have some bad news. You've heard about this new album Brian Wilson is working on, right? Well, this merda is good, and I mean GOOD. I don't know how you can beat this..." This leaves the Beatles feeling destroyed. Paul cries, John beats his wife, George chants the mantra ombriansucksom-ombriansucksom, and Ringo drifts off into a magical land of talking trains. When all seemed to be lost, George Martin smugly struts into the room holding a folded piece of paper. "This," he says, "will solve all our problems." He unfolds the paper revealing an intricately designed time-machine of sorts, about 8ft high and six feet wide. Metal. Bolted doors. Computer panels on the inside. High-tech merda. The Beatles are confused. "This is the plan," says George. "We get in this thing, program it to the year 3237, find the nearest hardware shop, buy invisibility suits, get back in, set the year back to now, come back, then travel to the time when Brian began working on his new album, and in our invisibility suits we will take mental notes on the process and then come back and make the thing ourselves." Such a plan could not be refused. So, several nanoseconds later the Beatles and George Martin, in their invisibility suits, were in Brian's house hanging around the piano where he and Van Dyke were just beginning Heroes and Villains. Paul almost gave the game away while playing air piano when he knocked over a candle stick. Lucky, Brian explained to Van Dyke that far from being ordinary paranormal activity, this was the Spirit of Spector looming over their project. Phew. The rest is basically history. The Beatles and Martin returned and made Sgt. Pepper before Brian could finish his SMiLE, and they won, they beat him.

I'm thinking... this is an example of this 'humor' stuff ?

It'll never catch on.

[nobody]

I think Van Dyke is referring more to the mood of both creations rather than specific things the Beatles stole. I mean, I don't have his quote at hand, but that's what I'm assuming. Where's reverend Doe with his Bible of quotes to help us out?

I'd like to believe that there was a secret operation going on at the time. Maybe Derek Taylor playing double agent, stealing Brian's music and ideas and encoding them via telegram to the Beatles in cryptic brit-speak. The evidence just doesn't really add up too well overall. And Sgt. Pepper was their own trip ... I think they came to a similar place as Brian stylistically or wutevs but it was on a more superficial level. Reading things like the Michael Vosse interview about SMiLE shows that Brian wasn't just doing nifty studio tricks with catchy pop songs but really working on some fairly abstract stuff that was well beyond what the Beets were doing. Killer Tofu. AGD needs more allowance.

We've already been through all this in excruciating detail. Bottom line - as described in the book, impossible. No-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed. Van Dyke later revised his comment in a private conversation with a friend of mine, saying that the two albums were similar because they both had sound effects.

What if the Beatles had 1) the power of time-travel and 2) invisibility suits?

Here's my revised theory: Derek Taylor rings the Beatles who are in England. "Boys, I have some bad news. You've heard about this new album Brian Wilson is working on, right? Well, this merda is good, and I mean GOOD. I don't know how you can beat this..." This leaves the Beatles feeling destroyed. Paul cries, John beats his wife, George chants the mantra ombriansucksom-ombriansucksom, and Ringo drifts off into a magical land of talking trains. When all seemed to be lost, George Martin smugly struts into the room holding a folded piece of paper. "This," he says, "will solve all our problems." He unfolds the paper revealing an intricately designed time-machine of sorts, about 8ft high and six feet wide. Metal. Bolted doors. Computer panels on the inside. High-tech merda. The Beatles are confused. "This is the plan," says George. "We get in this thing, program it to the year 3237, find the nearest hardware shop, buy invisibility suits, get back in, set the year back to now, come back, then travel to the time when Brian began working on his new album, and in our invisibility suits we will take mental notes on the process and then come back and make the thing ourselves." Such a plan could not be refused. So, several nanoseconds later the Beatles and George Martin, in their invisibility suits, were in Brian's house hanging around the piano where he and Van Dyke were just beginning Heroes and Villains. Paul almost gave the game away while playing air piano when he knocked over a candle stick. Lucky, Brian explained to Van Dyke that far from being ordinary paranormal activity, this was the Spirit of Spector looming over their project. Phew. The rest is basically history. The Beatles and Martin returned and made Sgt. Pepper before Brian could finish his SMiLE, and they won, they beat him.

I'm thinking... this is an example of this 'humor' stuff ?

It'll never catch on.

It's OK to laugh, Andrew. No one will look at you funny.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

And maybe I wasn't being clear-this wasn't as much as a 'what-if' the Beatles heard it and stole  it thread (because, well, they didn't ), it was along the line of 'does Pepper really sound so similar to SMiLE that someone could actually think that The Beatles stole something from Brian'. And to me, there aren't a lot similarities.

[grillo]

Not too similar at all. I always found pepper to be rather harsh, or sharp sounding, whereas SMiLE is very warm and soft, with some dynamic exceptions. Also there is the usual Beatles shortfall of things being overly-clever but lacking in any kind of soul.

[Jonas]

[Bicyclerider]

I think Van Dyke is referring more to the mood of both creations rather than specific things the Beatles stole. I mean, I don't have his quote at hand, but that's what I'm assuming. Where's reverend Doe with his Bible of quotes to help us out?

We've already been through all this in excruciating detail. Bottom line - as described in the book, impossible. No-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed. Van Dyke later revised his comment in a private conversation with a friend of mine, saying that the two albums were similar because they both had sound effects.

Yes - it appears that the "musique concrete" aspect of Pepper is what Van Dyke was referring to  - I believe those are his words - to describe the "stealing" from Smile that the Beatles did.  Animal sounds, the sounds of an audience, the orchestra tuning up, the laughing at the end of Within You Within Out, the Kite organ/calliope sounds, (reminds me a lttile of Heroes), the "noise" of A Day in the Life's orchestra swell - these things which when you examine them are quite peripheral to Pepper as a musical piece as a whole.

[Mr. Wilson]

humor..i allways enjoy a good laugh..the laugh i got was VDP claming  Beatles heard SMILE before completion...I dont see any other humor in this thread..

[buddhahat]

We've all heard Van Dyke's claims of covert listening sessions of the SMiLE music by The Beatles (a claim that pretty much sounds like a case of VDP sour grapes).  This got me to thinking; does he really think that there are that many similarities between the two albums?
I've been listening to the stereo remaster of  Sgt Pepper quite a bit recently, and nothing really stands out to me as being something that could be construed as 'stolen' from SMiLE. However, if I was Brian Wilson circa 1967, paranoid as all hell, I would probably be bothered by the use of animals on 'Good Morning, Good Morning', seeing as just a few months before I was working on a song that was centered around animal noises. Also, on 'Lovely Rita', someone makes maraca sounds with their mouth, whcih brings to mind the 'doing, doing' from Cabinessence. Also, while listening to 'Mr. Kite', my wife made the following statement; 'This sounds like the old SMiLE stuff, doesn't it?' I didn't really think so, but it still brought to mind VDP statment (and she doesn't even know the story of VDP claims).  So, I ask you, do you really think there are similarities between the two albums-enough to make someone go 'man, the Beatles ripped this off of Brian Wilson'?

I don't know about Sgt pepper, but I was listening to Help the other day, and It's Only Love came on and I thought, Wow! this melody - the "I get high when I see you go by" bit - really reminded me of BW's phrasing: Specifically I Just wasn't made For These Times and Wonderful. It's very similar, then I realised that in the U.S., It's Only Love was part of Rubber Soul which of course was the most influential Beatles album for Brian. Most probably just my ears playing tricks, but I found it an interesting thought that Lennon could have been a big influence on BW, in contrast to the more acceptable view that it was BW and McCartney influencing one another.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yes - it appears that the "musique concrete" aspect of Pepper is what Van Dyke was referring to  - I believe those are his words - to describe the "stealing" from Smile that the Beatles did.  Animal sounds, the sounds of an audience, the orchestra tuning up, the laughing at the end of Within You Within Out, the Kite organ/calliope sounds, (reminds me a lttile of Heroes), the "noise" of A Day in the Life's orchestra swell - these things which when you examine them are quite peripheral to Pepper as a musical piece as a whole.

In addition to those things that you listed, Bicyclerider....while I know this is a reach, there's also something Cabinessence-ish and Workshop-like about "Fixing A Hole", you know, the construction aspect. Maybe?

"I'm In Great Shape" has a spirit similar to "It's Getting Better".

Also, again, maybe it's just me, but is "She's Leaving Home" related(?), the antithesis of "Wonderful"? Instead of "she belongs there left...", it's "she's leaving home, bye-bye..."

EDIT: I forgot something else I wanted to mention about "She's Leaving Home"...It's interesting that Paul (like Brian & VDP with "Child Is Father Of The Man" and "Surf's Up") would think about writing a song about a child/daughter or relationship between child/parents.

[Reggie Dunbar]

Seems like apples and oranges in comparison. One is a fully realized and completed epic that was a guidepost for the psychedelic era, the other a fragmented and stillborn demo that might have trumped it, given the opportunity.

[The Song Of The Grange]

The two albums were made pretty much in isolation from each other.  I hear a lot of Pet Sounds in Sgt. Pepper, and in the single Penny Lane.  The Beatles were still reacting to that album.  The bass playing on Pepper has some Pet Sounds in it--Paul even admitted as much.

[Chris Brown]

The two albums were made pretty much in isolation from each other.  I hear a lot of Pet Sounds in Sgt. Pepper, and in the single Penny Lane.  The Beatles were still reacting to that album.  The bass playing on Pepper has some Pet Sounds in it--Paul even admitted as much.

You're absolutely dead on about "Penny Lane."  It has more than "some" Pet Sounds in it...it sounds as if Brian himself wrote it and Carol Kaye played it.  "With A Little Help From My Friends" has a similar bass sound.  Paul certainly admired Brian's bass work on Pet Sounds, and it was quite obvious in a lot of his stuff over the next few years.

[Bicyclerider]

This is off topic but I was listening to the stereo remaster of Abbey Road last night and Sun-King - definitely Lennon & Co. doing Beach Boys' influenced vocals on that one.  I wonder if George Martin was responsible for that (he did do the vocal arranging for Because)?

[Mr. Cohen]

To me, the difference between SMiLE and Sgt. Pepper's is that Sgt. Pepper's is essentially typical Beatles pop songs dressed up, if you will, with psychedelic and classical elements, whereas SMiLE's songs have this organic classically inspired pop impressionism feel going on. What I mean is, if you listen to the chorus of "Cabinessence", one doesn't get the impression that Brian took one of his typical choruses and thought, "well, how can I dress this up to make it sound like a train?" No, Brian just set out to capture that idea and he was able to in the very feel of the song, from the way all of the instruments played to the vocal melodies. If you had asked The Beatles to capture the sound of a train, they probably would've have taken a simple 3 chord chorus (maybe with some chordal embellishments for color) and overdubbed some train sounds on it, and maybe John would've shouted "choo choo!" a few times. We'd call it avant-garde. The additions would've been superfluous at their core as opposed to being necessitated by the basic elements of the song. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, it kept things within a comfort zone. Brian's methods most likely would've taken away from SMiLE's commercial appeal. Simply put, it would have been too unfamiliar to the average listener to catch their ear over an AM radio.

[buddhahat]

To me, the difference between SMiLE and Sgt. Pepper's is that Sgt. Pepper's is essentially typical Beatles pop songs dressed up, if you will, with psychedelic and classical elements, whereas SMiLE's songs have this organic classically inspired pop impressionism feel going on. What I mean is, if you listen to the chorus of "Cabinessence", one doesn't get the impression that Brian took one of his typical choruses and thought, "well, how can I dress this up to make it sound like a train?" No, Brian just set out to capture that idea and he was able to in the very feel of the song, from the way all of the instruments played to the vocal melodies. If you had asked The Beatles to capture the sound of a train, they probably would've have taken a simple 3 chord chorus (maybe with some chordal embellishments for color) and overdubbed some train sounds on it, and maybe John would've shouted "choo choo!" a few times.

This is a really interesting point and nicely illustrates the differences between the songwriting approaches in SP & Smile. Brian is really challenging the form of pop songwriting with Smile, whereas The Beatles were not stepping outside of it so much in Sgt. Pepper. However I think the genius of The Beatles was that they did manage to push the boundaries in coming up with songs that sounded unlike anything previous - Strawberry Fields, or Day In The Life, yet were still relatable to the public at large. Cabinessence is not relatable in the same way that SF or Day In The Life are. Sgt Pepper was a popular record and I think if you want to create a record that was the masterpiece of the pop music medium then it had to be popular, which Smile would not have been imo.