Brian Wilson & Phil Spector

[Phil H]

I think most of us here know that Brian Wilson has always held such a high regard for Phil Spector. We've almost all heard the tale about Brian once owning a juke box and no matter what button you pressed it always played Be My Baby, probably Brian's most favourite song ever. But what about Phil Spector and his opinion of Brian. Again, we've almost all heard about Brian attending a Spector recording session back in the '60s and Spector sending Brian home because his piano playing was just not good enough.....

Well hold on to your hats and read this passage that I've come across in the book I'm currently reading. It's called Tearing Down The Wall Of Sound, The Rise and Fall of Phil Spector by Mick Brown. I haven't completed the book yet but I have had a peep at the many references to the Beach Boys and in particular Brian Wilson via the index. This excerpt is from page 406;

Quote:
'You have to conquer yourself,' he said (he being Spector), 'and take control of yourself. I make fun of a lot of people, like Brian Wilson, because they don't have control over themselves. I think they're largely phonies. They use their illness as an excuse. I have no mercy for that.' But Wilson, I said, idolized him ('I said', being the author Mick Brown) 'I know. He does interviews; he writes his autobiography about me. I know, I know, I know.' He shrugged. 'It's sad, you know, but I don't know whether you can feel sorry for untalented people. Maybe he's not that talented. Maybe he's overrated. Maybe. Jimi Hendrix was not overrated. Janis Joplin was not overrated. I feel sorry that they died, because they shouldn't have. They should have been a little smarter. Brian Wilson outlived his brothers for God's fucking sake. How do you figure that? Carl Wilson - pretty bright guy. Dennis - pretty silly guy; y'know, a muppet. And Brian outlives them? But maybe Brian wasn't that talented to begin with, and we're burdening him with that. We make these people more than they are. I don't feel sorry for Brian Wilson; I never thought he was that talented to begin with. I'm glad he idolizes; I wish that Jimi Hendrix idolized me. I heard he did. I'd be more impressed if somebody with a brain idolized me.' I told him that when I had met Brian Wilson he had talked of perhaps wanting to be produced by Spector. He smiled. The idea was clearly preposterous.
End quote:

In contrast read what Brian had to say about Phil Spector in this interview which he gave to Sylvie Simmons for the Mojo Collections magazine back in 2002. (This is not the full interview);

Quote:
Ask him about the dark years and a cloud goes over his eyes. “It was a bad place.... The world got to be too scary. I didn't want to be in it,” he answers in fits and starts. He doesn't like to look back - “wallow in the mire”. If he accidentally hears an old Beach Boys album – he never plays them himself - “sometimes it brings back sadness, sometimes it brings back a good feeling.” If he sees an old picture of himself, depressed and overweight, he feels “totally embarrassed. But I lost the weight – 311 lbs! I got over it.”
One thing he has still to get over is “feeling competitive” with Phil Spector. Every day, several times a day, he plays Phil Spector records – the Christmas album too. He owns several copies of each so there will always be one at hand. Some of them he has laid out for Collections on his coffee table: The Best Of The Ronettes, Phil Spector's Back To Mono 1968-9, Wall Of Sound Vol5; Rare Masters and A Christmas Gift For You. He's been playing them over and over “for a year now. I don't know why. I just love the energy and love in them.” Asked if there's some essence of the music he's trying to reach, he nods and says, “I think that's it.” There was a time when all that Brian wanted to do was “to keep trying to beat Spector at his records. I kept trying to whip him.” When it all started going crazy was when “I couldn't”. I tell him that I think he whipped him good, a number of times. “No,” he says quietly. “No, no.”
End quote:

What do you all think about Spector's derisory dissing of Brian or even Brian's compulsive infatuation with Spector? Are they both mad?

[Reggie Dunbar]

Brian's going for a nosh at the deli about the same time Phil's getting
his tray of (insert disgusting b-grade menu item here). Karma is fickle
and it appears Brian has plenty to spare while Phil's morally bankrupt
past has caught up with him. Who's the genius ?

[Aegir]

They're both crazy, but Brian's a genuinely nice guy and Spector is a huge jerk who's in jail because he killed someone. Brian's all about love and Phil's all about hate.

[Bicyclerider]

I think that is a way oversimplistic view of Phil Spector - many of his associates remember him as kind, considerate, funny, and generous.  However he has demons like Brian has demons - and alcohol brought out those demons in a big way.  Not that that excuses what he did, but let's not caricature the man.   

Brian connected to Phil's music like no one else's, even the Beatles' music - and as a result he tended to project his own thoughts and ideas into Phil's music when they simply aren't there.  He literally worships Spector - I have an interview with Brian where he's asked what his idea of God is and he answers seriously Phil Spector.  To me that's a reflection of Brian's mental, emotional and artistic state, not a serious appraisal of Spector's music and importance, although an argument can be made that you can't really fully appreciate and understand Brian's music without some appreciation of Spector's work.

[Nicole]

That would be a humongous letdown for Brian if he read/heard about that. I hope he hasn't and never will...

I don't get it, how could you not be flattered by or appreciative of someone who thought so highly of you?

[Ebb and Flow]

Phil Spector was a talented guy, and I like his Philles stuff enormously...but at the same time, I don't think he ever quite reached that ultimate nadir of perfection like Brian did with Pet Sounds and Smile and also with certain tracks of Today! and SD&SN.  At a certain point he was no longer imitating his style, but transforming it into something unique and ultimately more satisfying.   And I think deep down Spector probably would acknowledge that if he wasn't such an ass.

[mtaber]

Brian is mentally ill... Phil is just plain NUTS!!!

[juggler]

Phil Spector was a talented guy, and I like his Philles stuff enormously...but at the same time, I don't think he ever quite reached that ultimate nadir of perfection like Brian did with Pet Sounds and Smile and also with certain tracks of Today! and SD&SN.  At a certain point he was no longer imitating his style, but transforming it into something unique and ultimately more satisfying.   And I think deep down Spector probably would acknowledge that if he wasn't such an ass.

Very well said... and almost exactly what Brian himself was saying in 1966.

From the famous Jules Siegel article...

"Spector started the whole thing.  He was the first one to use the studio. But I've gone beyond him now.  I'm doing the spiritual sound, a white spiritual sound.  Religious music..."

I don't know if Brian today still understands that he did surpass Spector, but he DID.

[Sheriff John Stone]

In a recent Rolling Stone article, Spector says of George Martin, "I don't consider him in my league". And, "He's an arranger, that's all."

That bothered me. And that's another difference between Brian Wilson and Phil Spector. Brian usually has kind words for his peers; he seldom has anything bad to say. Spector, on the other hand, seems to put down a lot of people, usually building himself up. I sometimes see through his bragging as actually being insecure, but that's another matter.

[Mark A. Moore]

Well, I've never liked that Brian fawns all over Spector . . . even before Spector put the gun in the woman's mouth and blew her brains out.

It's right and a noble thing to acknowledge influences and praise peers. But I think Brian was always laying it on way too thick with Spector. Brian has also been mentally ill, so there's doubtless a correlation there.

As a writer, arranger, producer, and artist . . . that total package . . . Brian Wilson surpassed Phil Spector very early on.

Another myth — perpetuated even in Beach Boys documentaries — is that the Wrecking Crew were "Phil Spector's musicians." So sorry, but that's fantasy. Those musicians played with just about every L.A. studio act.

Spector and Jan Berry started -- with self-penned hits -- in the same year (1958). Earl Palmer (Wrecking Crew) played on Jan & Arnie's Top-10 "Jennie Lee" (and their other sides) in 1958. Jan worked with the L.A. studio guys from day one.

The "Spector's Musicians" thing is a total myth . . . But in terms of style, you can give him the "Wall of Sound." That's enough to hang his hat on.

M.

[Wirestone]

Here's a thought: Phil did one thing. From the beginning, pretty much, he made massive-sounding, professionally written soul music. That essentially never changed throughout the 60s -- he was perfecting that single thing.

Brian did a half-dozen things in that period, and continued to shift and evolve through the 70s and 80s. He never chased a sound with the single-minded determination (madness) that Spector did. So in a certain way, he never did surpass Spector. Certainly not at Spector's own game.

But the consolation prize for this is that he did a lot of other music, that sounded different, and that went different places. Not something that Phil can say.

[BJL]

For a long time I didn't understand Brian's worship of Phil Spector.  Then one night I heard the song "Do I love you" and suddenly I understood.  It is one of the most perfect sounds i've ever heard.  It absolutely just blew me away, i listened to it over and over.

I think Brian achieved a similar level of perfection on a handful of his best ballads "don't worry baby" and "please let me wonder" come to mind. 

But i totally understand where the infatuation comes from.  It's not about phil spector's musical achievements or innovations, its about the feeling in a handful of those old spector records that has few parallels in music, any music.  in my opinion anyway

[Surfer Joe]

The way Brian feels about Spector is the way a ton more people now feel about Brian.  You just don't see that many people other than Brian gushing about Spector in interviews, liner notes, or documentaries- especially now, I guess.

I love Spector, but agree with Carl's assessment about who should be bowing down to whom.

[phirnis]

I tend to leave it to the psychiatrists to call anyone crazy, so to me Spector's just being a prick.

Do we know, by the way, that BW is indeed unaware of Spector talking so disrespectfully about his musical talents? He must have read or heard that somewhere I would reckon...

[Bicyclerider]

Well, I've never liked that Brian fawns all over Spector . . . even before Spector put the gun in the woman's mouth and blew her brains out.

It's right and a noble thing to acknowledge influences and praise peers. But I think Brian was always laying it on way too thick with Spector. Brian has also been mentally ill, so there's doubtless a correlation there.

As a writer, arranger, producer, and artist . . . that total package . . . Brian Wilson surpassed Phil Spector very early on.

Another myth — perpetuated even in Beach Boys documentaries — is that the Wrecking Crew were "Phil Spector's musicians." So sorry, but that's fantasy. Those musicians played with just about every L.A. studio act.

Spector and Jan Berry started -- with self-penned hits -- in the same year (1958). Earl Palmer (Wrecking Crew) played on Jan & Arnie's Top-10 "Jennie Lee" (and their other sides) in 1958. Jan worked with the L.A. studio guys from day one.

The "Spector's Musicians" thing is a total myth . . . But in terms of style, you can give him the "Wall of Sound." That's enough to hang his hat on.

M.

Mark - I think the argument can be made that Brian hiring the top LA musicians to do BB sessions more likely came from Jan Berry than Phil Spector, can it not?  But when he started hiring  twelve to fifteen musicians or more, as he did with some of Today and then certainly Pet Sounds, that was part of his desire to emulate and surpass the Wall of Sound Phil was doing.

[Mark A. Moore]

Mark - I think the argument can be made that Brian hiring the top LA musicians to do BB sessions more likely came from Jan Berry than Phil Spector, can it not?  But when he started hiring  twelve to fifteen musicians or more, as he did with some of Today and then certainly Pet Sounds, that was part of his desire to emulate and surpass the Wall of Sound Phil was doing.

True . . . I can ride with Brian emulating the "Wall of Sound." In fact, I think he surpassed it by far, because his productions were much cleaner than Spector's (in my opinion).

I just looked it up . . . and Jan Berry used 29 musicians (Wrecking Crew) on "Hawaii," "Fan Tan," and "Love & Hate" in 1967 (Carnival of Sound).

In general, I'd say that Jan always used more Wrecking Crew players per session than Brian did . . . Jan used two drummers playing in unison, and also usually doubled the bass and guitar parts.

It's all about arrangement, style, and production. That's why you get such different sounds from producers who were using the same musicians.

M.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

In the Endless Harmony doc, Terry Melcher made a comment about how 'Phil's music was always about anger. Brian's was about love'. Which sums it up perfectly, IMHO....

[Mr. Wilson]

Spector is full of merda + overrated...Calling BW overrated..phony..etc.. drives me nuts..BW wears his heart on his sleeve + his life is in full view of everyone..Spector some good music + did invent the Wall of Sound..Most of his music sounds more dated than BB music ever will be + he hasnt done much since mid 70"s..BW created positive spirit filled music..He created a sound tons of bands have tried to copy..Dont hear many people tryin to copy Phil..BW created the california sound..PS music is anger...PS is crazy as a loon + jealous..The harmonies BB music has is HARD to duplicate.. And from what ive read... Phil is a shark from the 50:s era..Hire people to sing + play + then keep all the rights + money..BW didnt steal from anyone..People stole money from Brian..Plus PS added his name to songs other people wrote to collect royalties..Spector is PATHETIC..!!

[halblaineisgood]

flaws, be appreciated.

[halblaineisgood]

im just trying to shoot from the hip

[the captain]

You don't like sentences, do you?

[Dr. Tim]

sorry t'blow everyone's mind...y'know...but actually there is a stereo mix of the Ronettes LP,  released in the UK in the 70s as the first issue in Phil Spector's Wall Of Sound Vol. 1...on the Polydor label...dunno if any of the CD reissues are in stereo or not...never bought 'em...hell I'm so busted I can't afford to use too many capital letters...they charge by the keystroke here and extra for using caps...

y'know

[halblaineisgood]

I get too damn excited about what I have to say, and I just let it all pour out in one long stream of consciousness run-on sentence. It's fun for me, but probably not very fun to read. I am going to change my ways.  Your mockery has brought me to a place filled with shame. I am going to use that shame though. I am going to use it to make me a better person.


As far as the Ronettes in stereo go, I really don't enjoy those stereo mixes that consist of rhythm track hard left, and strings and vocals hard right. If you like that kinda stuff, go for it. But its pretty crude compared to any of Brian's remixed stereo stuff.