The KTSA album

[TdHabib]

I don't know everything but the answer might be drugs.

[mtaber]

For any of us to try to pretend we can explain or understand the "how's" and "why's" of this band is an exercise in futility.  Mental illness, drug and alcohol abuse, sibling issues, money factors, ego, etc. make this perhaps the most complicated group in rock history.  It's a miracle they put out so much great music.  The frustrating thing is that they also put out their fair share of dreck which COULD have been great under the right circumstances.

The lack of participation/product from Dennis is due to many of the aforementioned factors.  He may have been disinterested, dysfunctional, and displaced all at the same time.  Dennis really didn't seem very productive at the time of KTSA.

Overall, I like the album in spite of some poor production.  For me, Carl's two songs and "Goin' On" are the highlights. 

[MBE]

Again people miss the point Dennis was not a Beach Boy when this was being recorded. Sure he showed up once or twice but he wasn't really welcome. If you call addiction illness then yes Dennis was very ill by this time.

MBE, I wasn't missing the point. If you notice, I put "was he ill?" in my post, because I wasn't sure where he was at with his problems during the recording of KTSA. I was trying to recall some dates/appearances from 1979 - I know he was on the The Midnight Special and I saw him live in 1979, and I recall he was with the band for the 1980 4th Of July festivities. Maybe in between those high profile appearances he was not available? Or made not available. It does seem kind of ironic that Brian and Carl, of all people, would vote Dennis out of the group. And for that reason (addictions). Or maybe they didn't?  

I do, however, stand by my point that Dennis withheld his participation/songs from albums for reasons that don't seem "team" oriented.

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I just wrote a really long reply and lost it somehow! Anyhow I wasn't trying to single you out but I was just frustrated because I had already mentioned that  Dennis wasn't in the band at the time. From mid June 1979 to May 1980 he only played 2 or 3 shows and only was at 2 sessions. I doubt he was invited, but more or less just showed up. For Surf's Up and MIU Dennis did chose not to contribute because he didn't feel supported by the others at those times. For KTSA I think he was just so caught up in a decline that he couldn't do anything productive on a consistant basis. I think every Beach Boy at one time or another was not a team player. Let's face it after Murry died they never were all on the same page. Even before then they didn't always see eye to eye but everyone was still together enough (physically and mentally) to work it out.

[Jason]

The reason Dennis was "out of the band" during KTSA was partly due to his distaste for the band's direction and mostly due to the fact that he had been banned (by Carl) from concert appearances after the first of six shows at the Universal Amphitheater in mid-1979. Michael and Dennis had been fighting all day and night, and they were both irritating each other onstage. The fact that he had made a comment about a hard drug onstage (keep in mind, they were at least TRYING to keep up appearances in 1979) just ate at Michael. Dennis had enough of Michael sneering at him after a while, and literally threw half of his drum kit onto Michael and then ran down and pummeled him. This was the famous "Michael kicked Dennis in the balls" incident. Dennis and Michael had to be restrained, with Dennis being tossed from the arena. Bobby Figueroa had to jump in on drums so they could finish the show.

[Nicko1234]

Well, if I've read correctly, Dennis had a song (or songs, including "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again"?) which were considered for the Surf's Up album. However, if I've read correctly, he wasn't happy with the song sequencing, specifically HIS song's placement, and, in essence, took his ball and went home.

On September 2nd or 3rd, 1977, Dennis got into that infamous "airport argument" with Mike and Al. Thus, during the recording of MIU, Dennis is mostly absent. On top of that, he went public with his own scathing review of the album, his band's album. A team player? Did he turn down his portion of the money the band received for the album?

I think this is a pretty fair comment. I`m sure that Dennis should have been given a lot more respect by his bandmates for his songwriting but he could have given them more respect too. For example, he dismissed Susie Cincinnatti as `a silly piece of sh*t` when 15 Big Ones was released. They are plenty of other examples too...

[Dancing Bear]

Dennis couldn't deliver Bambu, even with Guercio doing anything to cheer him on and no TM-follower around to blame. I guess his non-appearance in KTSA is very logic in the sequence of things in Dennis' life. Simple as that. He simply blew it. Missing the new Beach Boys album was probably a very little matter in his mind in 1980.

[Jay]

I asked this before in a different thread, but never got an answer. When Dennis was "banned" from appearing with the group, does that mean in the studio too? Was Dennis MIA from KTSA because he literally was not permitted to be involved?

[Dancing Bear]

By the way, IMO 'Oh Darling' sucks and no production could save it. It's boredom solidified in a song, though it's far from being the worst track in the bunch.

[MBE]

I asked this before in a different thread, but never got an answer. When Dennis was "banned" from appearing with the group, does that mean in the studio too? Was Dennis MIA from KTSA because he literally was not permitted to be involved?

Yes he was not made welcome at all.

[Smilin Ed H]

"I like Goin' On, Endless Harmony and Santa Ana Winds. I can stomach the two Carl-Bachman collaborations. The rest is pure dreck."

Agree, but I've developed a tolerance for WGGT.

[Dancing Bear]

"I like Goin' On, Endless Harmony and Santa Ana Winds. I can stomach the two Carl-Bachman collaborations. The rest is pure dreck."

Agree, but I've developed a tolerance for WGGT.

Mike and Brian harmonizing in 1969. It should be gold, just listen to the 'I close my tired eyes' line in Add Some Music. But they somehow never gell in this track. And it goes on and on, the torture never stops. It could very well lose one minute and a half.

[adamghost]

Random thoughts to a pretty good thread:

No, I'm not serious about calling Randy Bachman.  If I did I'd tell him that a BTO single was the first record I ever bought with my own money, and ask him if he drinks Labatt's.

There's something to be said for not being a team player when you're right and the rest of the team is wrong (talking artistically here, not lifestyle choices).

Stone makes the point that this is how he feels a Beach Boy album should be made -- except it isn't very good.  Which, well, I'll leave that one alone.  But I guess this is the point I have made in other posts, that wanting things to be done a certain way for wish fulfillment reasons often flies in the face with how things and people really work in the real world.

Al J. at the CWF concert spent about a full minute onstage bashing the KTSA cover.  Boy, did he hate it.

I like Eric's precis of the album.  I'm going to do my own.  No reason, I just don't feel like going to bed yet!

KTSA -- This song is dumb as hell but I love it.  The production could be more rocking but there are nice touches.  I like the random clap at the end.  Randy Bachman's version is very different, and kind of odd.

Oh Darlin' -- This is the same plodding arrangement that sunk the unreleased (but otherwise beautiful) version of "California Feeling" cut for the album, and the flanging on the piano just makes it worse, as do all the intentional homages to "God Only Knows."  The background vocals are truly bizarre.  I hate this song.

Some Of Your Love --  This is like the 3rd go-round for this hook, and Mike recycled it yet again on SIP.  The point about the harmonies is well taken...they're pretty cool, as is Darryl Dragon's kickass piano.  It's a pretty dumb song though.  The "kiss me baby" bridge melodically is ace.  Still, this song just rubs me the wrong way, like it's trying too hard and totally insubstantial at the same time.

Livin' With a Heartache -- Again, I just think this arrangement is boring.  The flanging on the guitar robs it of any urgency.  The (non-BB) vocals are cool, and I agree it's neat that Carl sang it outdoors. 

School Days -- I kind of like how muddy this sounds, it's very authentically rock.  I'm assuming that's from its four track origins.  Jardine sounds like he's having a good time, and the guitar playing is great.  It feels so close to being a rock track that it's kind of annoying that it doesn't get there.

Goin' On -- This is a cool song, but I've always thought it's overrated.  I like the fade out.  It sounds like they just decided to stop bothering to sing the chorus!

Sunshine -- HATE this song.  It makes me want to gouge my eyes out.  Dum-Dum-Dum-De-Dum-De-Dumb, bland production, repetitive melody, basic 1-4-5 progression.

When Girls Get Together -- Makes the plodding "Oh Darlin'" sound like a foxtrot.  This just lumbers along for about a hundred years.  It's not without charm, it's just boring.

Santa Ana Winds -- I love this song, and the fadeout is GORGEOUS.   The orchestra and the harmonica and chugging acoustic guitars?Great vocals, and wonderful to hear a BB track with such a rootsy, basic feel.   Magical.  Things to hate:  the triple tracked Al J. vocal on the first verse.  Really jarring and ugly sounding -- compare with Al and Bruce's laid back second verse.  Mike's nasal vocal, as noted elsewhere, is horrible.  A couple of other places in the song the strings are a bit much.

Endless Harmony -- I can't make up my mind about this song.  I think it's technically superior to most of the rest of the album, and it's a much more sophisticated song musically than anything else on KTSA.  Bruce's first half, which not-so-subtly quotes "Still Crazy After All These Years," doesn't bother me, it's smooth but the starkness of the track and the way the Rhodes is recorded gives it a little edge.  The second half of the track is the only part of the whole album that sounds like classic Beach Boys, and the lone falsetto bit is spine-tingling.  With all that going for it, the song just seems totally wrong-headed to me.  I like it a lot better on the ENDLESS HARMONY soundtrack than I do here.  It just seems more appropriate in that context.

What would have been better?  "I Will Always Love You" for sure.  "California Feeling" isn't any worse production-wise than "Oh Darling" and it's a miles better song.  "It's Not Too Late" could have really lifted the record to new heights, but you'd have to dump a lot of the album to make it fit sonically and stylistically.  "Goin' To The Beach" and "Surfer Suzie" aren't any better than "Some Of Your Love" -- and just as dumb -- but they'd be more interesting than the plodding ballads on side two.  I think the problem is trying to make everything make sense as part of one album.  It is, as Eric pointed out, like an album of B-sides and trying to improve it with different tracks might have just made it spottier.  None of these tracks fit with any of the other ones.  That may be the problem that faced Bruce Johnston when he put this thing together.

[MBE]

One last thing I wanted to add, "Livin' With A Heartache" is much better as an edited single. It sounds a little brighter and it doesn't overstay it's welcome like the LP version. Not a top rank song, but the remix or edit really improved it.

[Sound of Free]

With all the talk about the lack of Dennis' participation or songs, wasn't "San Miguel" in the running for KTSA at one point? Since Dennis most likely needed money, it seems like he would have been glad to have the song on the album.

I think San Miguel is a terrific sound that would have helped KTSA a lot and would have gotten more notice there than it did on 10 Years of Harmony.

What could be removed from KTSA to make room? A lot.

[Rocker]

With all the talk about the lack of Dennis' participation or songs, wasn't "San Miguel" in the running for KTSA at one point? Since Dennis most likely needed money, it seems like he would have been glad to have the song on the album.

I think San Miguel is a terrific sound that would have helped KTSA a lot and would have gotten more notice there than it did on 10 Years of Harmony.

What could be removed from KTSA to make room? A lot.

I like "Sam niguel" but it wouldn't have fit on KTSA. It sounds just too different to the rest of the songs.

[Jason]

What could be removed from KTSA? EVERYTHING!

Like I said in my review on this very site - if this was the best the group could do in 1980, I am not impressed. The year before they had delivered LA, their last great album, which had a lot of effort on the part of all who contributed, even Brian in his hospitalized state. Keepin' the Summer Alive, according to history, showed "more effort" on the band's part. The project just ended up being worthy of the bargain bin as soon as it was released. This isn't even worth being called an album of B-sides, as B-sides have MERIT to them. The album is garbage.

It may have been a "group effort", but it was a group effort by a band who didn't care.

[the captain]

There are bits and pieces of KTSA that I like in different times and contexts. But there is nothing--nothing--that I could always point to and claim to like. That's not a good sign for an album, being that dependent on the listener's mood (or state of inebriation).

As for what could have replaced it, I'd say there is easily an album's worth of then-unreleased music that would have been better than every song on the album. To truly get the best possible album, totally discarding this one would be the way to go. Not that I don't think it's better than what came later, it's just worse than most of what came before.

[jeremylr]

I haven't listened to KTSA or BB'85 yet, & it looks like I haven't missed much.  On the other hand, I know I'll buy it eventually, so maybe going into it with no expectations of greatness will make it somewhat better.  At least that's what I hope.  By the way, I love the L.A. album from the year before, too.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The year before they had delivered LA, their last great album, which had a lot of effort on the part of all who contributed, even Brian in his hospitalized state.

Even Brian? Did Brian play a note of music on L.A.? I know he's barely audible. Actually, L.A. is one of the least-Brian albums in the group's history.

[Jay]

KTSA -- This song is dumb as hell but I love it.  The production could be more rocking but there are nice touches.  I like the random clap at the end.  Randy Bachman's version is very different, and kind of odd.  My thoughts: It's a great song, but as you said, dumb. What the HELL is "ice cream weather"? 

When Girls Get Together -- Makes the plodding "Oh Darlin'" sound like a foxtrot.  This just lumbers along for about a hundred years.  It's not without charm, it's just boring. My thoughts: It's that damn marxophone! 

[Eric Aniversario]

I've always taken "ice cream weather" to mean hot, summertime weather.

[phirnis]

I haven't listened to KTSA or BB'85 yet, & it looks like I haven't missed much.  On the other hand, I know I'll buy it eventually, so maybe going into it with no expectations of greatness will make it somewhat better.  At least that's what I hope.  By the way, I love the L.A. album from the year before, too.

In a way both albums are way better than their actual reputation might imply. Mind you, they're not great by any means, but if you're genuinely interested in the history of the group you're going to find quite a few intriguing moments (some of which you might even find to be musically rewarding) on that twofer. BB85 in particular has lots of great lead vocal moments to offer despite the obvious triteness of some of the songs.

[Mr. Cohen]

I've always taken "ice cream weather" to mean hot, summertime weather.

Me, too.  I've always liked that line. The "ice cream weather, all the girls will look better, the boys try to give them a ride..." line is the only part of the song's lyrics that reach my brain. It makes me imagine a bearded trio of Carl, Brian, and Dennis sitting in a hot rod outside of an ice cream stand, licking their vanilla ice cream and offering teenage girls rides (probably because that was only a year or two after songs like "Roller Skating Child" and "Hey Little Tomboy"). It's sort of a metaphor for what the group was about commercially at that time, just like the insular glass house on the cover.

[Aegir]

I've always liked that line. The "ice cream weather, all the girls will look better, the boys try to give them a ride..." line is the only part of the song's lyrics that reach my brain. It makes me imagine a bearded trio of Carl, Brian, and Dennis sitting in a hot rod outside of an ice cream stand, licking their vanilla ice cream and offering teenage girls rides (probably because that was only a year or two after songs like "Roller Skating Child" and "Hey Little Tomboy").

While that is hilarious, sometimes I don't understand this viewpoint. Is "Be True to Your School" about someone in his mid-20s who still plays high school football? Roger Christian was pushing 30 when he penned the lyrics to "In the Parkin' Lot", which is about making out with a girl in a high school parking lot. No one thinks those songs are lecherous. What's the difference?

[Sound of Free]

I like "Sam niguel" but it wouldn't have fit on KTSA. It sounds just too different to the rest of the songs.

It DOES sound different, but that wouldn't b unusual for the Boys. Their previous album included a beautiful, haunting ballad in Baby Blue, a rock version of a traditional children's song in Shortenin' Bread and a never-ending disco song, Here Comes the Night. Talk about songs that don't fit together.

It's not just on LA either. Take a Load off Your Feet hardly fits on the same album with Surf's Up, Feel Flows and Til I Die.

KTSA needed any good songs it could get, so I think San Miguel would have helped.