Joe Thomas

[Chris Brown]

It's all about the chords and depth of feeling. A rare minor-key tune, and some of Brian's best falsetto on record in ages. Again, totally my opinion.

That's exactly how I feel too.  It's so rare to hear a minor-key Brian Wilson song, and his falsetto did indeed sound fantastic on that one.  I suppose if it were somebody else singing it, I wouldn't like it as much, but Brian really nails it.

[TdHabib]

You know I love the title track (in melody and vocals primarily, but lyrics to a smaller degree), like "Cry" to some degree, "South American" has a nice melody but that's about it for me.

Also everytime I hear the album I get a sinking feeling...perhaps best described by AGD a small time ago...

The whole Imagination project was a cynical and dispiriting excercise in decieving the fans into believing Brian was not only interested in doing it but also in charge of the proceedings. The studio footage ? Staged, every last second of it, with Brian being told what to say and how to act.

I could never put it better than that.

[phirnis]

...
Also everytime I hear the album I get a sinking feeling...perhaps best described by AGD a small time ago...

The whole Imagination project was a cynical and dispiriting excercise in decieving the fans into believing Brian was not only interested in doing it but also in charge of the proceedings. The studio footage ? Staged, every last second of it, with Brian being told what to say and how to act.

I could never put it better than that.

Stuff like this really brings up the question whether Brian's solo career is going to be remembered as one spoof after another one day.

[Wirestone]

I think Andrew is combining the filming, performance and DVD phase of the Imagination project from the actual recording. I think that promotion, in hindsight, was misdirected at best and deceptive at worst.  But Brian clearly made serious contributions to the record in terms of songwriting, vocal arranging and singing. And there are some instrumental touches that are very him as well.

Yeah, if you watch the DVD, it is clear Brian is monumentally uncomfortable. The notion of promoting the record with a live show was just dumb. But if you listen to the record, it's also clear that Brian did a lot creatively with it. Did he allow it to become swamped with Thomas? Sure. But did he want a hit? It seems that at the time he still had ambitions in that direction.

In the long run, Thomas's most positive contribution may have been to bring Brian together with Scotty, Taylor and Mertens -- the Chicago crew in the touring band.

[Dancing Bear]

Didn't Brian disown the album only after it was clear it wouldn't be a hit?

[Amy B.]

The thing about Brian's work is, even if the production sucks, you just know there are going to be moments of real beauty in it. Even though I really, really, really hate that 90s style of production that is all over Imagination, I love some of the harmonies. Brian was right when I said the vocals were the best part. Brian's harmonies are still head and shoulders above the norm in the pop music world. That alone makes it worth a listen.

I don't think you can say Brian is to blame for the bad production if you subscribe to the philosophy that he's not in control. Maybe apathy just set in. He didn't seem to have any allies around him, so he didn't stand up for his own ideas. I remember Carol Kaye's story about the production of Everything I Need. When was that? 1996? Apparently Brian did a beautiful production, and then "someone" came in and "modernized" it. Was that Joe Thomas? And Brian didn't have the will to stand up for his work? So I think it was possibly a matter of Joe Thomas not understanding what Brian is about, and Brian not being strong enough at the time to let him know.

As for Melinda, my impression is not that she had some evil plot against Brian, but that like Joe Thomas, she didn't understand Brian's music, and she didn't understand that MOR was already on the way out. I don't know what went on with Paley, but I think part of Melinda's desire to use Joe Thomas was simply bad taste. Maybe she's not the most sophisticated person in the world (not to mention that she had no experience in the music industry and maybe was just a casual music fan before she met Brian). And Brian isn't sophisticated either, but the best of his music is. I think, having married the guy, Melinda made the ill-advised move to try to manage him as well, and she didn't know how to do it. But one thing that can be said for her is that when she got some guidance, via Darian telling her that Joe Thomas was not doing right by Brian's music, she got rid of Joe Thomas and kept Darian. That was Darian's story, anyway.

[Amy B.]

...

[Andrew G. Doe]

There's a 'modify' button top right - click on that.

[Amy B.]

There's a 'modify' button top right - click on that.

Thanks!

[hypehat]

I remember Carol Kaye's story about the production of Everything I Need. When was that? 1996? Apparently Brian did a beautiful production, and then "someone" came in and "modernized" it. Was that Joe Thomas? And Brian didn't have the will to stand up for his work? So I think it was possibly a matter of Joe Thomas not understanding what Brian is about, and Brian not being strong enough at the time to let him know.

Isn't there also that story from Hal Blaine where he's talking about some young Wilson fanatic (but not necessarily a very smart one) producing Brian, and he gets Blaine to do a 'a three minute drum solo' over a 'a nice track', then listens to Pet Sounds for a bit, then puts wood blocks all over it, so it sounds 'like a woodshop'. All the while Brian's like 'yeah, sounds good man', as if he doesn't really care too much. I have no idea where that's from (I remember those quotes, strangely) who it was, or if i read it on here, but can someone back me up? Or are we talking about the same thing?

The only options I can think of (cos it sure as hell wasn't Joe Thomas) are Paley, Waronker (although he ain't young, and OCA doesn't sound like that) or maybe some O'Hagan sessions did happen....
Help?

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

[Andrew G. Doe]

No sessions took place with O'Hagan, that's for sure.

[Wirestone]

Yeah, the Everything I Need story is pretty well established, and there is audio evidence.

Brian called the wrecking crew back together, had written a new song with Tony Asher, had everything planned out. It was for Carnie and Wendy's album.

The session players raved about it (particularly Carol, who was very present online at the time).

When the CD came out, a year or so later, a lot of Thomas-selected musicians had been overdubbed on the track. Carol was particularly peeved, I recall.

A couple of years after that, though, the original session tapes leaked. It's definitely a more honest sounding, Brian-esque track, although a tad bland for my tastes. But it's pretty clear if you compare those two versions what Joe's strengths and weaknesses were. His weaknesses -- clearly the song didn't need to do in the direction that he took it. But on the other hand, Brian and his daughters sound lovely, and there are some nice harmonies that don't exist in the earlier versions.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

Yeah, and I struggle(d) with that, because we're talking about his art, and we all know there was a time when Brian would resort to confrontation FOR his art, because it was important to him.

[hypehat]

Yeah, the Everything I Need story is pretty well established, and there is audio evidence.

Brian called the wrecking crew back together, had written a new song with Tony Asher, had everything planned out. It was for Carnie and Wendy's album.

The session players raved about it (particularly Carol, who was very present online at the time).

When the CD came out, a year or so later, a lot of musicians had been overdubbed on the track. Carol was particularly peeved, I recall.

A couple of years after that, though, the original session tapes leaked. It's definitely a more honest sounding, Brian-esque track, although a tad bland for my tastes. But it's pretty clear if you compare those two versions what Joe's strengths and weaknesses were. His weaknesses -- clearly the song didn't need to do in the direction that he took it. But on the other hand, Brian and his daughters sound lovely, and there are some nice harmonies that don't exist in the earlier versions.

Oh right. So Joe produced it all the way through then? I'm listening to it now, sounds more Brian-ish than Imagination.... but not much. It's a pretty song, somewhat underwhelming for the renewed Wilson-Asher partnership.... Thanks for the info. Don't suppose you could point me in the direction of somewhere i could read about it?

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

Yeah, and I struggle(d) with that, because we're talking about his art, and we all know there was a time when Brian would resort to confrontation FOR his art, because it was important to him.

I suppose confronting the BB's, after a while, got to be impossible - you can't be constantly feuding with family, after all. It's other people i don't get. Landy drugged him up, so there's an excuse, but Thomas i suppose is the really baffling one - He was supposedly back in control of his life.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

Yeah, and I struggle(d) with that, because we're talking about his art, and we all know there was a time when Brian would resort to confrontation FOR his art, because it was important to him.

I suppose confronting the BB's, after a while, got to be impossible - you can't be constantly feuding with family, after all.

hypehat, I'm not directing this question directly to you, but your above quote awakened a pet peeve of mine. When Brian went solo, so many times I read about Brian's confrontations with The Beach Boys, and specifically Mike Love. My question is this: There is no doubt that Brian had to confront the group during the SMiLE sessions, and, I assume from reading that somebody (Mike?) objected to the tone/lyrics of "Til I Die" (though I don't know it to be fact). Other than SMiLE (43 years ago) and maybe "Til I Die" (a single song), when did Brian have confrontations with The Beach Boys over his music? And don't say 15 Big Ones and/or Love You, because, while portions of the group were not entirely happy with Brian's work on those albums, he was NOT confronted about them. Brian came in and quickly did his work and left. With 15 Big Ones specifically, any "problems" the group had with that work was not told to Brian's face in a confrontational manner. Maybe after the fact with the press, but not to Brian. My point is, Brian OVERWHELMINGLY had his way WITH THE BEACH BOYS. When he has chosen to work with them, he did HIS thing. They were, still are, and always will be afraid to confront him - musically.

[mikeyj]

I assume from reading that somebody (Mike?) objected to the tone/lyrics of "Til I Die" (though I don't know it to be fact). Other than SMiLE (43 years ago) and maybe "Til I Die" (a single song), when did Brian have confrontations with The Beach Boys over his music?

Well I believe the Til I Die confrontation to be fact just because Bruce said so - but I'm not going to say it was Mike - but it was someone. But am I right in thinking that there was some confrontation over Old Man River? And what about the Don Was sessions? And of course there are the stories from Chuck Negron about Time To Get Alone - but I don't know if I believe that.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I assume from reading that somebody (Mike?) objected to the tone/lyrics of "Til I Die" (though I don't know it to be fact). Other than SMiLE (43 years ago) and maybe "Til I Die" (a single song), when did Brian have confrontations with The Beach Boys over his music?

Well I believe the Til I Die confrontation to be fact just because Bruce said so - but I'm not going to say it was Mike - but it was someone. But am I right in thinking that there was some confrontation over Old Man River? And what about the Don Was sessions? And of course there are the stories from Chuck Negron about Time To Get Alone - but I don't know if I believe that.

Regarding "Til I Die", since it was released (with much vocal contribution from Mike), depressing lyrics and all, I wonder how strong the objections were?

Yeah, there was some disagreement goin' on during the Don Was sessions, because Carl bailed. Was that directly involving Brian? I ask because I don't know.

[mikeyj]

Regarding "Til I Die", since it was released (with much vocal contribution from Mike), depressing lyrics and all, I wonder how strong the objections were?

Yeah, there was some disagreement goin' on during the Don Was sessions, because Carl bailed. Was that directly involving Brian? I ask because I don't know.

I'm not sure Sheriff, but here is Bruce's quote which can be found on page 144 in David Leaf's book: "I remember Brian playing it for the band and one member of the band didn't understand it and put it down, and Brian just decided not to show it to us for a few months. He just put it away. I mean, he was absolutely crushed. This other person just didn't like it, but Brian cut it anyway."

I don't really know enough about the Was sessions to be honest, I just know that Carl walked out.

[MBE]

It's normal to have members of a group dislike a song here and there. I think Mike and Brian brought out good things in each other, and like SJS said Mike always backed down and did his work. Cabinessence and 'Til I Die (if it is true) prove that.

[Wirestone]

Hype -- what happened was the Brian produced the first session solo. He also recorded some scratch vocals and later recorded an early attempt at Carnie and Wendy's vocals. These two versions were out on some of the Paley sessions boots (although they have no connection to Paley or those earlier sessions).

At some point later, Joe Thomas overdubbed a crew of his own musicians on the track. That's why, if you look at the CD credits, there are two (or three!) bassists, two drummers, etc. And the dreaded nylon guitar makes its appearance. The song definitely then began to sound less like Brian's bare-bones track and more like Imagination.

Fascinating fact: Jeff Foskett re-recorded the song in an arrangement much closer to the original on his 12X12 album of a few years back. Darian plays several instruments on it and Brian sings backup (poorly).

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

No sessions took place with O'Hagan, that's for sure.

What exactly was the deal with that, anyway? From what I've gathered, Brian wasn't too crazy about him personally, but have not gotten any more detail.

[TdHabib]

Fascinating fact: Jeff Foskett re-recorded the song in an arrangement much closer to the original on his 12X12 album of a few years back. Darian plays several instruments on it and Brian sings backup (poorly).

Very poorly.

[b00ts]

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

Yeah, and I struggle(d) with that, because we're talking about his art, and we all know there was a time when Brian would resort to confrontation FOR his art, because it was important to him.

You mean like when he gave up on SMiLe?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Fascinating fact: Jeff Foskett re-recorded the song in an arrangement much closer to the original on his 12X12 album of a few years back. Darian plays several instruments on it and Brian sings backup (poorly).

Doesn't Jeff use Brian's original basic track & bvs ? Sounds like it to me.

[Dancing Bear]

I'm not sure Sheriff, but here is Bruce's quote which can be found on page 144 in David Leaf's book: "I remember Brian playing it for the band and one member of the band didn't understand it and put it down, and Brian just decided not to show it to us for a few months. He just put it away. I mean, he was absolutely crushed. This other person just didn't like it, but Brian cut it anyway."

Till I Die was worked very soon after Sunflower was completed. I don't think Bruce's lying, but maybe Brian was just taking his time, aware that it would be some months before another album would be released. He knew that in the end Warner would ask them where the 'Brian Wilson tracks' were.

We sometimes make a big deal about Brian's and Dennis' songs being rejected, but do we stop and wonder if any of the other 'untalented ones' were too, if it "crushed their feelings" or something wussy like that? I've heard a (probably) apocriphical story about Mike presenting Viggie to the group in the early 70s and Carl laughing it off.