Joe Thomas

[b00ts]

I have read the account of Joe Thomas' abdication as musical director and subsequent departure from the band, as requested by Darian, in Peter Ames Carlin's book. However, I seem to remember considerably more acrimony between Brian/Melinda, Azoff, and Thomas at the time. Does anyone have any details? What happened to Brian's contract with Giant post-Imagination? He was still releasing albums afterwards on some variation of Warners until the release of TLOS.

Thomas is credited with co-writing "How Could We Still be Dancin'" on GIOMH, and the title track sounds like it was arranged and produced by Thomas... although I am guessing that this took place during the Imagination sessions. It certainly is not the Wilson-Paley version.

All told, Imagination is not an bad album, it's just wrongheaded in some ways for an artist like Brian Wilson... as was Thomas' request that the group play "Caroline, No" as a "sexy, Sade-style thing."

[Mr. Cohen]

You know, I don't have anything against Joe Thomas. I don't think his arrangements were that bad, and they were, at the least, very clear sounding. Plus, I don't think it's wrong to fault Thomas for the arrangements. If anything, you should be mad at Brian, then, for not writing most of the arrangements himself. And as far as the early-mid 90s adult contemporary sound of the album goes, I have a feeling Brian wanted that at the time. I don't think it's a coincidence that it seems like everything Brian was involved in from the late 70s up until around the mid 00s gravitated towards something close to that sound (synthesizers, cheesy electric guitars, digital reverb, etc.). Don't get me wrong, I don't rate Imagination very highly (although I do like a few of the songs), but I don't blame much of that on Joe Thomas. Let's face it, a lot of the songwriting was mediocre. It reminded me of Brian circa-MIU, not all that bad but a little lost and bland.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And as far as the early-mid 90s adult contemporary sound of the album goes, I have a feeling Brian wanted that at the time.

Not Brian, but someone else with the surname "Wilson". 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yep. Besides, Brian has gone on record as not particularly caring for the album and also that it was "not my kind of music-well, vocally it is".

HCWSBD was an Imagination outtake... I remember reading about it on what is now Susan's board shortly after Imagination came out. Not to say it wasn't re-recorded for GIOMH (I honestly don't know if it was or wasn't), but a version of it was indeed recorded at that time.

[Mr. Cohen]

Not Brian, but someone else with the surname "Wilson".

I've heard that. I'm not sure if I believe it, though.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Not Brian, but someone else with the surname "Wilson".

I've heard that. I'm not sure if I believe it, though.

I do.

[donald]

I like the remake of Keep an Eye on Summer.    Please don't think badly of me.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yep. Besides, Brian has gone on record as not particularly caring for the album and also that it was "not my kind of music-well, vocally it is".

HCWSBD was an Imagination outtake... I remember reading about it on what is now Susan's board shortly after Imagination came out. Not to say it wasn't re-recorded for GIOMH (I honestly don't know if it was or wasn't), but a version of it was indeed recorded at that time.

I'm reasonably sure that the basic track on GIOMH dates from 1998. Can you say "nylon guitar" ?    Not to mention Thomas being listed among the musicians...

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'll never win the argument but I thought Joe Thomas did a good job with Brian - and The Beach Boys.

I think Brian's vocals on Imagination are the best he's done in his solo career. I thought it was the material, basically the lower 4-5 songs, that doomed the album. I also thought Stars And Stripes was a well-produced album; those harmonies are damn good. I agree with Dada that Joe Thomas' s arrangements weren't that bad, and, if they were, who should've been the one to override them or "correct" them? How about Brian? But he never seems to be held accountable for that; we "blame" Joe Thomas instead, for the lack of success of BRIAN WILSON'S SOLO ALBUM.

For what it's worth, I also think "Joy To The World" is the best track on the Christmas album, and Joe produced that.....

[TdHabib]

I know for a fact Brian lost a good deal of control on Imagination after doing some very basic work. The title track is a good example...Brian did an upbeat track and sang beautifully on the choruses and "my-my-my" section (which is just gorgeous and was shortened for the record---well they mixed it out the first time) and that (as far as I know) was his work...which is why the final version has the enthusiasm, but also nylon guitar and the verses have less enthusiasm than the refrains...

[b00ts]

I know for a fact Brian lost a good deal of control on Imagination after doing some very basic work. The title track is a good example...Brian did an upbeat track and sang beautifully on the choruses and "my-my-my" section (which is just gorgeous and was shortened for the record---well they mixed it out the first time) and that (as far as I know) was his work...which is why the final version has the enthusiasm, but also nylon guitar and the verses have less enthusiasm than the refrains...

Not surprising. Which other songs had he started before control was wrested away from him? "Cry" sounds like very pure Brian Wilson to me, and I love to play the DTS surround version.

I did not say that Joe Thomas was devoid of talent, or that he ruined the album, or that he was the antichrist, etc. What I did say was that Imagination was wrong-headed; it is not the right environment for Brian to be in - it is more of a Peter Cetera scene. As AGD pointed out, that accursed nylon stringed guitar is out of place on a Brian Wilson album.

The problem with the whole "buck stops here" argument, and with Imagination in general, is that it was produced by Brian and Joe Thomas, not Brian by himself. While some would argue that the same applies to his more recent solo efforts, there is a very real difference between an album having the "Brian Stamp" and not having it. Imagination comes perilously close to losing its "Brian Stamp."

As someone else mentioned, Brian mentioned in interviews at the time that it was not his album, and he was most happy with the vocal aspect. I will agree with this. Imagination takes some getting used to (the sterility and the digital artifacting) but once I get into it, it is better.

So what other songs (besides the title track) did Brian work on before it became a co-production? And what happened with the lawsuits and acrimony between Brian/Melinda and Azoff/Thomas?

[TdHabib]

I know for a fact Brian lost a good deal of control on Imagination after doing some very basic work. The title track is a good example...Brian did an upbeat track and sang beautifully on the choruses and "my-my-my" section (which is just gorgeous and was shortened for the record---well they mixed it out the first time) and that (as far as I know) was his work...which is why the final version has the enthusiasm, but also nylon guitar and the verses have less enthusiasm than the refrains...

Not surprising. Which other songs had he started before control was wrested away from him? "Cry" sounds like very pure Brian Wilson to me, and I love to play the DTS surround version.

I did not say that Joe Thomas was devoid of talent, or that he ruined the album, or that he was the antichrist, etc. What I did say was that Imagination was wrong-headed; it is not the right environment for Brian to be in - it is more of a Peter Cetera scene. As AGD pointed out, that accursed nylon stringed guitar is out of place on a Brian Wilson album.

The problem with the whole "buck stops here" argument, and with Imagination in general, is that it was produced by Brian and Joe Thomas, not Brian by himself. While some would argue that the same applies to his more recent solo efforts, there is a very real difference between an album having the "Brian Stamp" and not having it. Imagination comes perilously close to losing its "Brian Stamp."

As someone else mentioned, Brian mentioned in interviews at the time that it was not his album, and he was most happy with the vocal aspect. I will agree with this. Imagination takes some getting used to (the sterility and the digital artifacting) but once I get into it, it is better.

So what other songs (besides the title track) did Brian work on before it became a co-production? And what happened with the lawsuits and acrimony between Brian/Melinda and Azoff/Thomas?

AGD really should be answering this but I'm pretty sure "Cry" as well.

And just from a subjective point...you can tell Brian wasn't very involved with some of the Imagination cuts by comparing the versions of "Lay Down Burden" out there. On the Imagination album, it's a pleasant, pretty tune...but then if you listen to the versions on the BW on Tour DVD as well as the rehearsal (the first day of BW rehearsals for the tour) on the DVD and the Roxy cut...it's a spiritual, deep, beautiful cut that I literally can hardly hold back tears listening to. And it's one of the few times where I agree with Brian on the Wondermints v. BB thing he discussed, the harmonic blend they do on the live versions is unbelieveable.

[Mr. Cohen]

edit - I hate the way tabs work in my browser. I keep somehow posting in the wrong topics.

[Chris Brown]

I agree with Sheriff about the vocals...Thomas got Brian to sound really good on Imagination.  However, I have to disagree with Sheriff and DaDa about the arrangements.  I really find them to be quite awful, and I find it hard to believe that Brian had a lot to do with that.  We've heard Brian's arranging for over 40 years, and it has never been as schmaltzy (for lack of a better term) than on Imagination.  It just doesn't sound like a Brian Wilson record instrumentally. 

Brian hasn't ever been in total control of his solo output...I think the main reason why his recent solo work sounds more "Brian" is that his band does a good job mimicing his arranging style.  Thomas went his own way and consequently, the music on Imagination has that bland MOR/adult-contemporary sound.

[the captain]

I like the remake of Keep an Eye on Summer.    Please don't think badly of me.

Well you goshdarn sonofa...

Really, while I dislike a lot--A LOT--of what is happening on that album, I have a soft spot for it, too. It's around the time I got interested in BBs/BW. And besides, some of the memories of it I have are quite specific and quite personal and those memories inexplicably don't notice show shitty noodling nylon-string guitars can sound over cheesy string synth pads. Oddly, it was around the same time I got Love You, and those memories apply equally to that one. Go figure.

[MBE]

I agree with Sheriff about the vocals...Thomas got Brian to sound really good on Imagination.  However, I have to disagree with Sheriff and DaDa about the arrangements.  I really find them to be quite awful, and I find it hard to believe that Brian had a lot to do with that.  We've heard Brian's arranging for over 40 years, and it has never been as schmaltzy (for lack of a better term) than on Imagination.  It just doesn't sound like a Brian Wilson record instrumentally. 

Brian hasn't ever been in total control of his solo output...I think the main reason why his recent solo work sounds more "Brian" is that his band does a good job mimicing his arranging style.  Thomas went his own way and consequently, the music on Imagination has that bland MOR/adult-contemporary sound.

Chris you echo my sentiments 100 percent.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I know for a fact Brian lost a good deal of control on Imagination after doing some very basic work. The title track is a good example...Brian did an upbeat track and sang beautifully on the choruses and "my-my-my" section (which is just gorgeous and was shortened for the record---well they mixed it out the first time) and that (as far as I know) was his work...which is why the final version has the enthusiasm, but also nylon guitar and the verses have less enthusiasm than the refrains...

Not surprising. Which other songs had he started before control was wrested away from him? "Cry" sounds like very pure Brian Wilson to me, and I love to play the DTS surround version.

I did not say that Joe Thomas was devoid of talent, or that he ruined the album, or that he was the antichrist, etc. What I did say was that Imagination was wrong-headed; it is not the right environment for Brian to be in - it is more of a Peter Cetera scene. As AGD pointed out, that accursed nylon stringed guitar is out of place on a Brian Wilson album.

The problem with the whole "buck stops here" argument, and with Imagination in general, is that it was produced by Brian and Joe Thomas, not Brian by himself. While some would argue that the same applies to his more recent solo efforts, there is a very real difference between an album having the "Brian Stamp" and not having it. Imagination comes perilously close to losing its "Brian Stamp."

As someone else mentioned, Brian mentioned in interviews at the time that it was not his album, and he was most happy with the vocal aspect. I will agree with this. Imagination takes some getting used to (the sterility and the digital artifacting) but once I get into it, it is better.

So what other songs (besides the title track) did Brian work on before it became a co-production? And what happened with the lawsuits and acrimony between Brian/Melinda and Azoff/Thomas?

I'll never win the argument but I thought Joe Thomas did a good job with Brian - and The Beach Boys.

I think Brian's vocals on Imagination are the best he's done in his solo career. I thought it was the material, basically the lower 4-5 songs, that doomed the album. I also thought Stars And Stripes was a well-produced album; those harmonies are damn good. I agree with Dada that Joe Thomas' s arrangements weren't that bad, and, if they were, who should've been the one to override them or "correct" them? How about Brian? But he never seems to be held accountable for that; we "blame" Joe Thomas instead, for the lack of success of BRIAN WILSON'S SOLO ALBUM.

For what it's worth, I also think "Joy To The World" is the best track on the Christmas album, and Joe produced that.....

See, for me, it's the last 4-5 songs that save the album for me. I really don't care for the 1st part of it at all.

I'm reasonably sure that the basic track on GIOMH dates from 1998. Can you say "nylon guitar" ?  Grin  Not to mention Thomas being listed among the musicians...

Aha...I thought so.

So what other songs (besides the title track) did Brian work on before it became a co-production?

Technically you can count Getting in Over My Head,as the version on the album of the same name actually is *another* Imagination outtake. "Sunshine" is also mainly Brian, except the end part which most people love, although I've heard that it started off as more a boogie woogie type deal.

[petsite]

Ok, I don't know if it was because the fact it was pre-9/11 and all the other crap that hasgone on since or what, but, I have nothing but good feelings about IMAGINATION. When I had my old PetSite webpage, I gave it a great review and was asked by GIANT to help promote it on my website which I gladly did (and turned down money because I wanted to be free to write anything I felt). I think Joe did a great job with Brian's vocals and the overall production of the LP. I like it much better than GIOMH and even TLOS. Sue me. I still pull it off the shelf and take it in my car. It makes me feel good. No, I don't love every song. I skip Where Has Love Been all the time. And skip to the end of SUNSHINE everytime. But all and all, a great little piece of music.

Bob

[Mahalo]

Ok, I don't know if it was because the fact it was pre-9/11 and all the other crap that hasgone on since or what, but, I have nothing but good feelings about IMAGINATION. When I had my old PetSite webpage, I gave it a great review and was asked by GIANT to help promote it on my website which I gladly did (and turned down money because I wanted to be free to write anything I felt). I think Joe did a great job with Brian's vocals and the overall production of the LP. I like it much better than GIOMH and even TLOS. Sue me. I still pull it off the shelf and take it in my car. It makes me feel good. No, I don't love every song. I skip Where Has Love Been all the time. And skip to the end of SUNSHINE everytime. But all and all, a great little piece of music.

Bob

Where Has Love Been is easily one of my faves....

[donald]

I, for one, am pulling this album out of my vault for relistening.  But, I might take "happy days" off of the play list.

[Aegir]

I like most of Imagination. I think it's a lot stronger than any of his solo albums besides Smile, which doesn't count anyway.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'll never win the argument but I thought Joe Thomas did a good job with Brian - and The Beach Boys.

I think Brian's vocals on Imagination are the best he's done in his solo career. I thought it was the material, basically the lower 4-5 songs, that doomed the album. I also thought Stars And Stripes was a well-produced album; those harmonies are damn good. I agree with Dada that Joe Thomas' s arrangements weren't that bad, and, if they were, who should've been the one to override them or "correct" them? How about Brian? But he never seems to be held accountable for that; we "blame" Joe Thomas instead, for the lack of success of BRIAN WILSON'S SOLO ALBUM.

For what it's worth, I also think "Joy To The World" is the best track on the Christmas album, and Joe produced that.....

See, for me, it's the last 4-5 songs that save the album for me. I really don't care for the 1st part of it at all.

Just to clarify, Billy, I wasn't referring to the "lower 4-5 songs" sequentially on the album, but rather my least favorite 4-5 songs. I know it's subjective, but when I make a comp of Brian's solo stuff, I always seem to pick more songs off of Imagination than the other albums. There is a very strong nucleus of songs on Imagination - the title track, "South American", Cry", "Lay Down Burden", and maybe "She Says That She Needs Me". I also think that "Dream Angel" is an underrated song, well produced, including a great Brian lead vocal, maybe one of my favorites on the album.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'll never win the Joe Thomas/Imagination debate, and I'm not really passionate enough about the issue to try, so I'll ask this question more out of curiosity....For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

[DonnaK]

I personally love both Imagination and Orange Crate Art. I feel they are an escape from the norm of what I've known as Brian's music. Did that make sense???

[donald]

Makes sense.  I like OCA primarily because of the concept and VDP's vision.  I would like to hear the title track rerecorded or done live by the Brian Wilson band.  And as for Imagination, I think it has received too much negative criticism. 

[Chris Brown]

I'll never win the argument but I thought Joe Thomas did a good job with Brian - and The Beach Boys.

I think Brian's vocals on Imagination are the best he's done in his solo career. I thought it was the material, basically the lower 4-5 songs, that doomed the album. I also thought Stars And Stripes was a well-produced album; those harmonies are damn good. I agree with Dada that Joe Thomas' s arrangements weren't that bad, and, if they were, who should've been the one to override them or "correct" them? How about Brian? But he never seems to be held accountable for that; we "blame" Joe Thomas instead, for the lack of success of BRIAN WILSON'S SOLO ALBUM.

For what it's worth, I also think "Joy To The World" is the best track on the Christmas album, and Joe produced that.....

See, for me, it's the last 4-5 songs that save the album for me. I really don't care for the 1st part of it at all.

Just to clarify, Billy, I wasn't referring to the "lower 4-5 songs" sequentially on the album, but rather my least favorite 4-5 songs. I know it's subjective, but when I make a comp of Brian's solo stuff, I always seem to pick more songs off of Imagination than the other albums. There is a very strong nucleus of songs on Imagination - the title track, "South American", Cry", "Lay Down Burden", and maybe "She Says That She Needs Me". I also think that "Dream Angel" is an underrated song, well produced, including a great Brian lead vocal, maybe one of my favorites on the album.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'll never win the Joe Thomas/Imagination debate, and I'm not really passionate enough about the issue to try, so I'll ask this question more out of curiosity....For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

I haven't listened to the album in awhile, but just off the top of my head:

--  The spanish guitar on "Lay Down Burden" (this is probably the worst offender for me)

--  The oboe (it may be a clarinet) on "She Says That She Needs Me"

--  The sax at the end of "Happy Days" (in fact, the whole second half of that song is incredibly bland)

--  The nylon guitar on "Cry" (this one really doesn't bother me that much, but it's still very "un-Brian")

--  The whole arrangement of "Let Him Run Wild" is nowhere near as cool as the original...it's not one particular instrument or other arrangement choice, it's the whole "feel" of the arrangement

--  The fact that "Imagination," "South American" and "Dream Angel" all sound like the same damn song (instrumentally, at least)

Like I said, overall I just don't feel that Imagination sounds like a Brian Wilson record.  Brian's arrangements never sounded cheesy and slick.  It's really a shame too, because I do like a lot of the songs on the album.