In regards to the Dennis and Mike relationship

[Magic Transistor Radio]

When I listen to the vocals only version of Forever, there is a very beautiful duet with Dennis and Mike. It almost brings me to tears, not just for its beauty, but also in the context of the strained relationship that these two had.

I also find it touching how they would jokingly admire each other in a late 70s concert while performing Surfer Girl.

I feel that if you take away the music, money (mostly Mike), drugs (Dennis) and girls, that they would've been very close friends. I think it was these things that was at the root of their dislike of each other. If there was no BBs, and they worked together as mechanics or something, I think they would be very close, and Dennis would still be alive. And this message board wouldn't exist.

[Mahalo]

I'm sure that Mike has at times missed Dennis' company....

[CarCrazyCutie]

When I listen to the vocals only version of Forever, there is a very beautiful duet with Dennis and Mike. It almost brings me to tears, not just for its beauty, but also in the context of the strained relationship that these two had.

I also find it touching how they would jokingly admire each other in a late 70s concert while performing Surfer Girl.

I feel that if you take away the music, money (mostly Mike), drugs (Dennis) and girls, that they would've been very close friends. I think it was these things that was at the root of their dislike of each other. If there was no BBs, and they worked together as mechanics or something, I think they would be very close, and Dennis would still be alive. And this message board wouldn't exist.

Totally agree

[The Heartical Don]

Intriguing.

I'd bet on the drugs and alcohol thing. I'd say that Mike (who, I believe, never partook) had serious problems with Dennis because of this. Users tend to befriend users. Bar buddies can spend endless hours in each others company without saying much of any importance. Sort of a silent conspiracy.

Users usually have an altered personality when under the influence (in Denny's case, um, most of the time?). The highs, the comedowns, the manic periods (esp. cocaine), the vomiting, the impulsivity... I can't see Mike, striving for tranquility (see his meditating), aching to have Denny in his vicinity.

[Jon Stebbins]

Intriguing.

I'd bet on the drugs and alcohol thing. I'd say that Mike (who, I believe, never partook) had serious problems with Dennis because of this. Users tend to befriend users. Bar buddies can spend endless hours in each others company without saying much of any importance. Sort of a silent conspiracy.

Users usually have an altered personality when under the influence (in Denny's case, um, most of the time?). The highs, the comedowns, the manic periods (esp. cocaine), the vomiting, the impulsivity... I can't see Mike, striving for tranquility (see his meditating), aching to have Denny in his vicinity.

That discounts the fact that these two were already known for getting into regular fist-fights in '62 when drugs and alcohol were a non-factor. The main problem was a personality conflict at the most fundamental level. One guy was cocky, calculating, mature(for the time), and liked to be shown respect...the other a free thinker, bohemian(yes even in '62), immature with no fear, and a quick temper. Mike looked down on Dennis cause he was a dumb kid. Dennis made a point of needling Mike whenever he could cause he thought Mike was a pompous stiff...he was younger, he was good at pushing Mike's buttons, and it was part of the chemistry that existed in their relationship from the very beginning. Yes there were periods where they got along, they even lived together shortly in '63...and they certainly made a formidable team when they were on the same page, which was rare. Once a competition for girls was in play, it escalated. The drugs and alcohol and money didn't help, that's for sure...but these guys had a history of violence between each other that preceded that by many years. That's not to say there wasn't love between them...they were like brothers...they shared blood and genes...neither one possessed the best qualities of the other. I wish they had found a way to collaborate more because when they did it worked.

[Ed Roach]

What Jon says is absolutely true.  I got to witness some of the last real close days between these two, though, near the end days of 1968.  Sometime early in '69 an event occured, (over a woman), that would drive a permenant wedge between them.  Add the events of the next couple of years, (Dennis' involvement with The Family - followed by their arrests - his development as a singer/songwriter, and his getting cast in a movie), and I think Mike had a hard time excepting Dennis' emerengence.  Always thought that had something to do with why he thought Brian was worth saving, while Dennis...

[the captain]

Always thought that had something to do with why he thought Brian was worth saving, while Dennis...[/b]

Did Mike really not think Dennis was worth saving? And of course I know that's impossible to answer entirely, in that we can't know what Mike thought. But didn't the band help Dennis go through rehab on occasion, just like Brian?

[Andrew G. Doe]

What Jon says is absolutely true.  I got to witness some of the last real close days between these two, though, near the end days of 1968.  Sometime early in '69 an event occured, (over a woman), that would drive a permenant wedge between them.  Add the events of the next couple of years, (Dennis' involvement with The Family - followed by their arrests - his development as a singer/songwriter, and his getting cast in a movie), and I think Mike had a hard time excepting Dennis' emerengence.  Always thought that had something to do with why he thought Brian was worth saving, while Dennis...

And yet... after that Mike wrote some great lyrics for Dennis - "Sound Of Free", "Pacific Ocean Blues" and above all "Only With You". Go figure.

[Jason]

Wasn't Only With You a Mike lyric that was sitting around which Dennis set a melody to?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'd bet on the drugs and alcohol thing. I'd say that Mike (who, I believe, never partook) had serious problems with Dennis because of this.

Mike smoked weed for a few years.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I would say that lack of maturity had a lot to do with it as well. Even in the 70s. I believe that its a lot harder for people to mature when they are given so much at a young age. Same with young actors and athletes. I knew that as early as 62, they had their disputes. But the BBs were already big. I guess you also have to factor in that they were around each other a lot more. Does anyone know if they had trouble getting along pre BBs?

[oldsurferdude]

Intriguing.

I'd bet on the drugs and alcohol thing. I'd say that Mike (who, I believe, never partook) had serious problems with Dennis because of this. Users tend to befriend users. Bar buddies can spend endless hours in each others company without saying much of any importance. Sort of a silent conspiracy.

Users usually have an altered personality when under the influence (in Denny's case, um, most of the time?). The highs, the comedowns, the manic periods (esp. cocaine), the vomiting, the impulsivity... I can't see Mike, striving for tranquility (see his meditating), aching to have Denny in his vicinity.

That discounts the fact that these two were already known for getting into regular fist-fights in '62 when drugs and alcohol were a non-factor. The main problem was a personality conflict at the most fundamental level. One guy was cocky, calculating, mature(for the time), and liked to be shown respect...the other a free thinker, bohemian(yes even in '62), immature with no fear, and a quick temper. Mike looked down on Dennis cause he was a dumb kid. Dennis made a point of needling Mike whenever he could cause he thought Mike was a pompous stiff...he was younger, he was good at pushing Mike's buttons, and it was part of the chemistry that existed in their relationship from the very beginning. Yes there were periods where they got along, they even lived together shortly in '63...and they certainly made a formidable team when they were on the same page, which was rare. Once a competition for girls was in play, it escalated. The drugs and alcohol and money didn't help, that's for sure...but these guys had a history of violence between each other that preceded that by many years. That's not to say there wasn't love between them...they were like brothers...they shared blood and genes...neither one possessed the best qualities of the other. I wish they had found a way to collaborate more because when they did it worked.

I'm trying to understand something here   "...competition for girls..." ? Between Dennis & Mike? I can't see any female in her right mind even considering Mike with Dennis nearby.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Well, considering how many times he's been married, it's not that much of a stretch. Besides, bald is sexy. I mean, look at me.

[Pretty Funky]

Lead singers and a show-pony guitarist have it over the rest of a band anyday.

[oldsurferdude]

Well, considering how many times he's been married, it's not that much of a stretch. Besides, bald is sexy. I mean, look at me.

ok, but money is sexier.

[DonnaK]

I would've chosen Dennis over Mike anyday. Mike is a pompus ass and always acted like that in public. When I saw the Mike/Bruce show 2 years ago, I had a second row seat in the center. That Mike still thinks he's a lady's man. He loves to give you that long stare while he's singing, but I really wanted to puke.  If he only knew........ I kept thinking about how crappy I felt he treated Dennis. I still, to this day, feel Mike had alot to do with Dennis' solo career being put on the back burner. Just my thoughts.......

[Jason]

I hate to say it even though I am a huge fan of Dennis and his solo work, but I firmly believe that it was Dennis who was the closest person responsible for his career being put on the back burner. People just like to blame Michael and Al because of the so-called "ultimatum" that was issued in '77 if Dennis went on the mini solo tour. Dennis was still recording after that. Sure, he didn't do the tour, but he still was making a conscious effort to make more music on his own. Then by roughly the middle of 1979 it was pretty much over. Dennis was too scattered by then, and while I'm sure it wasn't a conscious decision of his to just put solo work on the back burner, the damage was done. The fistfight at the Universal Amphitheater in '79 was probably the catalyst for the downward spiral. Being kicked out of the Beach Boys meant no access to money, which was what the man needed to even record.

[Howie Edelson]

Although Mike remembers writing the lyrics for "Sound Of Free," he told me he has no memory of co-writing "Only With You" and "Pacific Ocean Blues."

[Jason]

Probably one of those incidents that (I believe) Gregg Jakobson mentioned about Dennis. Even if another person contributed a couple of words, a line, a verse, Dennis gave them 50% of the credit. I don't think the Only With You lyrics are anyone's but Michael's, though. Note the absence of ten to fifteen "I love you" phrases, for instance. (Kidding)

[Dancing Bear]

Wasn't Only With You a Mike lyric that was sitting around which Dennis set a melody to?

Really? I 'd have guessed that the lyrics were Mike adapting to Dennis style, but with his own words.

[MBE]

I hate to say it even though I am a huge fan of Dennis and his solo work, but I firmly believe that it was Dennis who was the closest person responsible for his career being put on the back burner. People just like to blame Michael and Al because of the so-called "ultimatum" that was issued in '77 if Dennis went on the mini solo tour. Dennis was still recording after that. Sure, he didn't do the tour, but he still was making a conscious effort to make more music on his own. Then by roughly the middle of 1979 it was pretty much over. Dennis was too scattered by then, and while I'm sure it wasn't a conscious decision of his to just put solo work on the back burner, the damage was done. The fistfight at the Universal Amphitheater in '79 was probably the catalyst for the downward spiral. Being kicked out of the Beach Boys meant no access to money, which was what the man needed to even record.

I love Dennis but I have to agree that he ultimately was the one who destroyed himself. If Dennis had sobered up in 1977 and seriously tackled the tour there is no way he would have been kept out of the group-not with Carl alive. That is IF he was together. Mike could be a jerk but I also wouldn't want to work with someone who shows up too bombed to play properly. By 1977 Brian, Dennis, and Carl, were wrecking shows with their on stage behavior. It's a fact, and you cannot blame Mike Love for any of that. This has nothing to do with music or creative direction, Brian and Dennis towered over Mike there, but who would you rather count on as a team member,  a hardworking egotist, or a kind hearted creative hard core addict who is off the wagon. By 1977-78 it wasn't "Hey I do this in my off time but don't let it have an effect on the show". I have never seen three people more adversely affected on stage (and even at times in the studio) then the Wilson's. Mike's taking the easy route killed the Beach Boys creatively, but so did drugs and booze.

Honest to goodness I like them all, but I also see their faults. I don't idolize anyone like so many do to Brian or Dennis. In fact that may have been what first warped their reality. That's not to say they weren't very unique artists, who deep down had good souls. In the end nobody is a hero or villain, it's way too complicated for that. I think talking the middle ground and seeing them as normal human beings is the only thing that's healthy.

[TdHabib]

Mike I trust what you are saying, but did Dennis really wreck Beach Boys shows during 1977? On Largo he does a few tipsy intros but nothing destructive.  Brian I would also say was never truly comfortable on stage with the Beach Boys in the 1970s after the brief tour in 1970 and did okay some nights (from a brief look at Eric's site listings) and not on others, but I don't think he intentionally tried to screw up any of the shows until 1980. I've never seen Brian on stage, but from what I've seen on youtube I'm convinced he was trying to ruin certain songs on 80s clips. In any case you know more than I do...

I've never heard your angle that as long as he was together and Carl was around Dennis never would've been kept out of the Beach Boys...but it makes perfect sense.

[MBE]

Yes as the final full shows Brian did before any vocal or neurological damage (IE the violently shaking leg in 1976) that 1970 tour and the first two Whiskey gigs were the last time he was probably 100 percent involved with what was going on or interested. The third Whiskey gig he seemingly was in a panic so I don't count that. I'm not forgetting the 1971 and 1973 cameos but he wasn't willing to do a full show so it doesn't count. He did seem to be pretty good in some of the 1983 shows, but he wasn't featured strong on every song, and couldn't do his old parts etc.

I don't think they were trying to ruin concerts. Brian may have acted out a little, but in their state I bet they thought they were great. I guess I hold Dennis up to the high standard he displayed on the 1976 It's OK special. If he had stayed to that level I can't see how he would have had a problem being a successful Beach Boy or solo artist.  In 1977 he was better then he was say by 1979, but it was obvious to me that he had already gone into a decline that was starting to hurt the shows. There were times in the 1973-74 period that Dennis threw off the shows slightly by being drunk, but he still looked healthy enough and sang well enough to where he could get away with it better. Once he was back on drums he was more vital and it was more important that he be clear headed. There was an incident in early 1975 but his first two years back on drums seem to have pretty consistent. Looking at the Largo or even the Australia tape Dennis is not nearly as off as his brothers, but I can't say he is in his absolute prime either. That said in the studio during 1977-78 he seems pretty on his game, but every sequential session probably came harder by the time he started full force on Bambu.

[Ed Roach]

Man, step away from this board when a new, somewhat intriguing thread gets started,  (actually, we stepped away from L.A. for a few hours), and some mighty interesting things get said!  I'd like to respond to a few:

I love Dennis but I have to agree...
By 1977 Brian, Dennis, and Carl, were wrecking shows with their on stage behavior...
By 1977-78 it wasn't "Hey I do this in my off time but don't let it have an effect on the show". I have never seen three people more adversely affected on stage (and even at times in the studio) then the Wilson's...

I hate to respond to this first, and I apologize for editing your first statement, (especially 'cause I basically agree with it).  It's after, though, that I totally agree with you.  I had too many fights with Dennis, when he did something he thought was "cute", but I viewed as crazy, especially from a fans perspective.  Which is to say, as if I had waited & spent the money, hoping to transend the heavens, listening to Brian's music as close as it was intended.  And not to see some drunken/stoned buffoons acting the role of the clown...  (I've even got pictures & films of it, as pissed as it would make me at times.  And that's not to beg off that I was indulging with them ).  At times, Dennis honestly thought people were digging it, and I'm sure there were a few that were!  (Carl always cared & knew better;  Brian, who knows?)  But what a waste of time & talent...  It was just so hard for Dennis to really reach at what was causing him his pain; there were those definite moments when he could send it out in song, though!  The most tragic of 'What if's?" to me, his solo tour...

Although Mike remembers writing the lyrics for "Sound Of Free," he told me he has no memory of co-writing "Only With You" and "Pacific Ocean Blues."

Whew...  There were other things that I wanted to comment on more, but this one is the mind blower, Howie!  Doesn't surprise me, but it blows my mind none the less.

Did Mike really not think Dennis was worth saving? And of course I know that's impossible to answer entirely, in that we can't know what Mike thought. But didn't the band help Dennis go through rehab on occasion, just like Brian?

Luther, you know, in retrospect what I said sounds quite harsh.  However, I myself had to give up just before Dennis was gone - and believe me, I hung around until the bitter end.  But at a certain point, even I had to let go; (it really is as they say, you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved..)
That being said, you want my honest opinion, "No!"  He not only didn't think he was worth saving, I think he found him old & in the way.  Look, I was still shocked when he showed Al the door, and he doesn't seem to miss the Wilson's on stage one bit!  (Watch out, Bruce...)

[Exapno Mapcase]

So you mean Leaf, Melinda and Landy aren't always responsible for the bad press Love gets?! I thought we were living in revisionist revisionist times!  Gee whiz, who'd a thunk it?