The Breaking Point In Their Career?

[The Heartical Don]

...I mean, when did the BBs start to imitate themselves? This strange group never seemed to answer to the demands of PR men and a supposed 'target audience' (OK, they made hits, but so what?). I have this theory that many artists, when they really tend to dry up a bit, or get into personal trouble, start to follow a 'script', to try to fit into their own niche they once created themselves. 'Please let me sound like myself', something like that.

For me, the BBs had that moment with 'M.I.U. Album'. '15BO' and 'Love You' both were still bold attempts, with the latter one obviously being a true landmark. But with 'M.I.U.', we got 'Kona Coast' (the true forerunner of 'KoKoMo', and I like that one better). And 'Peggy Sue'. The BBs slowly turning into their own tribute band. Yes, 'My Diane' was a true flicker of hope. Dennis' courteous gifts to 'L.A. Album' just saved that one (HTCN being THE utmostest worstest attempt by any major band to pander to a current craze). 'KTSA' never really worked for me (the production is so bland). '1985 - The Beach Boys' - trying to fit into Steve Levines '80s straitjacket. 'Still Cruisin''... no. Again, a tribute album to themselves.

Any thougts, folks?

[carl r]

I reckon the BB were always entangled by the industry. In the mid-70s the music industry realised that 50s and early 60s nostalgia was big money - Endless Summer being the catalyst for the prioritisation of financial considerations of the band and organisation. Beyond Endless Summer, money really came to the fore, as I believe many others have written. Love You - great album - but can be seen as an unintended by-product of "Brian Is Back" - which only really existed as a way of getting a lucrative new deal. And I am sure that many were dismayed at the "strangeness" of the final "product". Kokomo was no accident - there was a big 60s nostalgia element to the mid-late 80s, with Sgt Pepper being released on CD, and the increasing movie/music tie-ups which dominated the 80s and 90s. At the end of the day, the Beach Boys played this game. I don't even think they'd dried up - at least, there's enough evidence from Dennis and Brian's solo work since '77 to show that the songs were still being written - but they tried to follow the money, pure and simple. Mike always felt sure he knew where the pot of gold was buried; to be fair, he found a few bits.

[phirnis]

Of course you could go back to 1968 in order to identify what probably was the first ever BB tribute song to themselves, "Do It Again". The music, however, was still very satisfying (as were the lyrics, mind you) and by then they didn't produce whole albums that would mainly evoke backwards-looking images of the sun and the surf.

The "It's OK" TV special, while probably plenty of fun to watch, strikes me as one of the first occasions when it was clearly all about past glories. I agree that 15 Big Ones itself, while not perfect, still had a lot to offer; it was Brian Wilson's mad jukebox album and that, artistically, is a lot more intriguing to me than the group singing about "keepin' the summer alive". In a way it always seems to me like the group got rid of the trademark BW quirkiness quite deliberately after Love You didn't sell, and that ended much of their initial originality.

[The Shift]

For me it was 15BOs though I like the album. I think it's the BBs' own belief that they needed Brian back to succeed, whereas in fact they'd been getting along just fine with their previous albums, even though there'd been gap.

It went from the progressive nature of SF/SU/H/C&TP to '50s and '60s covers and pop songs (albeit some of them great pop songs).  Dennis was still  capable, Carl was still key, the others could still cut it and Brian was capable of great contributions. They just got overawed by their own Brian-led legacy.

Perhaps...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I would go a little bit later. Yes, they started the nestalgia (spell?) thing in the mid 70s. But they did have one last proggressive album with LALA. I think they were going back in forth in the late 70s but by KTSA, they had pretty much gone to nestalgic. Although, I would say that some of the music in KTSA was fairly proggressive and modern, the lyrics certainly weren't. But when Carl left in 1981 and Brian and Dennis were fired, there was no looking back. Or all looking back.

[The Heartical Don]

I would go a little bit later. Yes, they started the nestalgia (spell?) thing in the mid 70s. But they did have one last proggressive album with LALA. I think they were going back in forth in the late 70s but by KTSA, they had pretty much gone to nestalgic. Although, I would say that some of the music in KTSA was fairly proggressive and modern, the lyrics certainly weren't. But when Carl left in 1981 and Brian and Dennis were fired, there was no looking back. Or all looking back.

...as in: 'Looking Back With Love'?

I will get my coat then...

[carl r]

I'd go as far as to say "the rot" set in far earlier than it needed to with the Beach Boys band. It's not like they gracefully faded away, like say - Status Quo - they made a deliberate decision to dumb-down long before the expression had even been invented.   Given that even now Brian is capable of knocking out some good tracks., I reckon most of the issues related to actual management of band, or lack of. Despite what people say, a Wilson-brothers Beach Boys band could have stuck it out and made decent music till the early 90s - and the Dennis' fate was, I think, absolutely avoidable.

[The Heartical Don]

I'd go as far as to say "the rot" set in far earlier than it needed to with the Beach Boys band. It's not like they gracefully faded away, like say - Status Quo - they made a deliberate decision to dumb-down long before the expression had even been invented.   Given that even now Brian is capable of knocking out some good tracks., I reckon most of the issues related to actual management of band, or lack of. Despite what people say, a Wilson-brothers Beach Boys band could have stuck it out and made decent music till the early 90s - and the Dennis' fate was, I think, absolutely avoidable.

Harsh but fair.

[donald]

Iv'e often wondered, and even discussed it here;   How on earth did a band who had just completed an album like Holland, which was both of high quality and creativity, and of the times, fall so quickly to an oldies band doing covers and bad imitations of themselves from a decade earlier?

[Shady]

I like to think the final nail in the coffin wasn't till California Calling

[The Heartical Don]

I like to think the final nail in the coffin wasn't till California Calling

 

[Jon Stebbins]

The cover of Keepin the Summer Alive seemed like the final nail to me. Holland/Love You/POB...and tiny bits of L.A. were the last signs of real progression.

[pixletwin]

The cover of Keepin the Summer Alive seemed like the final nail to me. Holland/Love You/POB...and tiny bits of L.A. were the last signs of real progression.

\

The  best track on KTSA for me is When Girls Get Together (a controversail one) and that is why I agree with you.

[The Heartical Don]

The cover of Keepin the Summer Alive seemed like the final nail to me. Holland/Love You/POB...and tiny bits of L.A. were the last signs of real progression.

Another fine call. Yes, going by the artwork you are dead right. It ranks among the worst covers for any major artist ever. L.A. had those nice Neon Park (a.o.)postcards, and then... that...

[Shady]

The cover of Keepin the Summer Alive seemed like the final nail to me. Holland/Love You/POB...and tiny bits of L.A. were the last signs of real progression.

Hey now, the cover sucks but the music is great.

I really want to hate KTSA I swear, but 90% of the music is just so damn good

[PrayForSurf]

For me, the question is when did the Beach Boys stop producing a "Beach Boys" album (not so much the sound as the "topics"). Summer Days (and Summer Nights!) may have been the last giving-the-public-what-they-expected album. Pet Sounds was fabulous but really was "Brian Wilson presents Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys."  SMiLE would have forever altered expectations about future BB albums/songs (as did Sgt. Pepper for the Beatles). In each subsequent album they still sounded like the Beach Boys (vocals) but were always trying to reinvent themselves (almost changing their name at one point). Their post SD (&SN!) legacy is amazing, enjoyable, and mostly excellent music, but it seems to me this era was a tension between not-sounding like Shut Down Part 3 and yet being who they were, the Beach Boys.  I love the music but growing up with them was a roller coaster ride!

[The Heartical Don]

For me, the question is when did the Beach Boys stop producing a "Beach Boys" album (not so much the sound as the "topics"). Summer Days (and Summer Nights!) may have been the last giving-the-public-what-they-expected album. Pet Sounds was fabulous but really was "Brian Wilson presents Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys."  SMiLE would have forever altered expectations about future BB albums/songs (as did Sgt. Pepper for the Beatles). In each subsequent album they still sounded like the Beach Boys (vocals) but were always trying to reinvent themselves (almost changing their name at one point). Their post SD (&SN!) legacy is amazing, enjoyable, and mostly excellent music, but it seems to me this era was a tension between not-sounding like Shut Down Part 3 and yet being who they were, the Beach Boys.  I love the music but growing up with them was a roller coaster ride!

Nice, how one question can be answered in numerous ways, all with good reasons.

[Bicyclerider]

Love You, as groundbreaking musically as it was for the Beach Boys/Brian, was often lyrically a throwback to their early career - Roller Skating Child is the most obvious, but Love is a woman, Night was so Young, I'll Bet He's Nice call to mind Today/Summer Days to me.  The lyrical sophistication Jack Reilly brought has disappeared.  then MIU, where the production as well as most of the songs deliberately tried to "bring back" the classic Beach Boys sound - Kona Coast (Hawaii), She's got Rhythm (an updated Dance Dance Dance), won't you come out tonight, etc.  MIU is where a Beach Boy fan realized the progressive, groundbreaking days were over and all we could expect in the future was familiar retreads of the classic Beach Boys sound.  Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . if anyone should be allowed to recycle Beach Boy classic songs in slightly new forms, it should be the Beach Boys.  Isn't that what That Lucky Old Sun is?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm gonna go with Smiley Smile. It was the first album (not counting Concert and Party) where Brian STOPPED going forward, thus going backward. Technically, they were "imitating" some of the SMiLE material, albeit in a strange way. I sometimes feel Brian was almost paroding the Beach Boys' vocal sound on "Little Pad" and "She's Goin' Bald", and to a lesser extent on "Whistle In". "Good Vibrations" was approaching history by then, and the credit "Produced By The Beach Boys", while not entirely accurate, was prophetic.

There would be other high charting albums and singles, and some "works of art", but I felt Smiley Smile was a breaking point to some extent, as things were never the same.

[the captain]

Depends on whether we're talking the start of the end, the too-late-to-turn-back part of the end, the end of the end... Probably 15BO for me. There was some really cool stuff happening after it, and I can imagine thinking that they'd turn it around, but that's the one (along with the success of Endless Summer) where it seems they hitched their wagons to the(ir) past and finding success primarily in their understanding of the easiest selling product (which of course often wasn't a seller at all) rather than the best music they could make.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Probably 15BO for me. There was some really cool stuff happening after it, and I can imagine thinking that they'd turn it around, but that's the one (along with the success of Endless Summer) where it seems they hitched their wagons to the(ir) past and finding success primarily in their understanding of the easiest selling product (which of course often wasn't a seller at all) rather than the best music they could make.

I definitely thought they'd turn it around. There was a kind of a momentum building, yes, even with the start of 15 Big Ones, thru Love You, and even parts of MIU (with Brian's clear-throated vocals).

I still think they "hitched their wagons" to the past more out of neccessity than choice. I think they realized Brian's "comeback" was gonna be short-lived, and I don't think the other guys - for whatever reasons at that time - were ready, willing, and able to do something artistic. The Dennis issue is very complicated with his solo recording career, his substance abuse, and the slow but sure drying up of material after 1977-78.

[sockittome]

Perhaps this should have been a poll!  So many answers to this question, and they're all accurate, based on many different viewpoints. 

PS was the first major departure from the classic Beach Boys formula, and the first album since their debut to not be a smash hit.  One could speculate that in a perfect world, by following up with this new formula (SMiLE and beyond)  the BB's could have eventually made their way back to the top, especially once the Beatles were out of the way.  But the commercial disaster of SS pretty much sealed their fate.  "Do It Again" was their first nostalgic look back, but it was only for one song.  I believe that there was no trend being set at that time.  Endless Summer set the trend for the BB as an oldies act.  If it weren't for that release, I (along with a lot of other folks) probably would have never heard of the Beach Boys, at least until much later.  I remember the airwaves being literally blitzed with songs from that comp, and I didn't even know they were oldies!  And then, a year or two later, when I understood a little of what was going on, and "RnR Music" hit the airwaves, I assumed it was an oldie, too.  (Ok, so it was, but not for the Boys!)

So what I'm getting around to, is that I cast my vote for 15BO as the point where the BBs became the oldies act, set in motion by the events I cited above. 

[PrayForSurf]

Observation on Do It Again -

Interesting release of singles around that time:
  >Friends / Little Bird (1968) - Dennis's "single" (B side) - One of the most creative, haunting Beach Boys songs; certainly to that point
  >Bluebirds Over the Mountain / Never Learn Not to Love (1968) - Bruce's single: a Disney Girls nostalgia trip (another Dennis B side)
  >Do It Again / Wake the World (1968)  - Mike's single: Let's recreate the past (Brian's B side looks for a new day; a new start)
  >I Can Hear Music / All I Want to Do (1969)    - Carl's single: Homage to brother Brian; a Spectorian song and sound (another Dennis B side)
  >Breakaway / Celebrate the News (1969)  - Brian's single: Good-bye Capitol but also -- I need to be free from my role as a Beach Boy (another Dennis B side)
  >Cotton Fields /The Nearest Faraway Place (1970) - Al's single: Folk City! here we come, again.

As each group member began to produce music, it is interesting to see the path they each took. IMHO, totally within character. And the end of Brian Wilson's Beach Boys. The Beach Boys were now individuals writing and even producing but only singing (usually) as a unit.

[tpesky]

1980 was the last time they were a rock band, the albums leading up all had something a little progressive to take from them, they tried. They still sounded like a powerhouse live. Carl leaves 81, they are in a holding pattern and by 83 emerge with a different sound, packaged, and like an oldies tribute act.

[Aegir]

I just don't understand it. If they had kept on making "good" music instead of "4-chord imitations of songs Brian would've written for Beach Boys in 1964" music, they'd probably all have a lot more money by now, because their albums would've actually sold. I don't mind that they keep on selling Be True To Your School, just don't try to hide it under Some of Your Love.