The best part of SIP

[phirnis]

It sounds like something Brian could have come up with for 15 Big Ones. It's a nice idea but BJ's corny vocal delivery ruins it for me.

[matt-zeus]

I listened to SIP a bit when I first got it (sometime in the mid 90s on cassette) but haven't listened to it for years. A lot of it sounded like the sort of thing you would hear on cheesy teenage sitcoms like 'Saved by the bell' etc...

[adamghost]

"Only four songs that directly used "old" phrases, but I was referring to the CONCEPT OF THE ALBUM, and much of TLOS is a Looking Back With Wilson album. That was my point; I wasn't commenting on the quality of TLOS, just the concept. If Mike Love would've used that concept for an album, or would use it in the future, he would undoubtedly be criticized for it, no matter how good the songs were. Just trying to point out the hypocrisy. Mike "looking back" - no good. Brian "looking back" - you go guy!

As far as personal emotional content, I hear just as much emotion from Mike in "Summer In Paradise" as I do with Brian in "Southern California". And, again, that's not comparing the quality of each song or the overall performance, just the emotion. I hear Mike sounding very passionate about those subjects that he's singing about. And, of course, in real life, we know Mike values those things, whereas what Brian is feeling, well...."


Nonsense.  It doesn't just matter what your intent is, it's how well you pull it off.  The lyrics to SIP are crap, plain and simple.  They're dumb, hand-handed and forced.  I have no doubt Mike's intentions were sincere, but it's just painful to listen to.  "Southern California" has real poetry to it.  It's a wonderful lyric.

Mike's doing a "looking back" album would be undercut somewhat by him having been doing the same thing for 30 years or so (to a much greater and more consistent degree than the other guys), but I submit that if he could pull off the concept with lyrics that didn't sound trite, pandering or calculated, people would be receptive to it.  Listen, I am no fan of Mike the post-1970 songwriter, but I've heard some of the songs on his new album and a couple of them are not bad.  If Mike just relaxes, writes what he cares about, and doesn't try to shoehorn a lot of old song titles and "commercial" ideas into a lyric, he does just fine.

It's ridiculous to just say everyone has it in for Mike and we're not giving his songs a fair hearing.  Put it this way:  if Mike had written "Southern California" and Brian had written "Summer In Paradise," do you honestly believe we'd all feel differently about the two songs?  Really?  Because I promise you, my reaction would be exactly the same.  One's a crap song and one isn't.

[Dancing Bear]

"At twenty five turned out the light" is so lame that even Brian tried to dissociate from this crap, suggesting that Bennet Boy was writing about himself. So, even Brian "quality-control" Wilson despises it, no need for the die-hards to defend it here. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Reminds me of the time a DJ said "I'll play you a song, and you'll like it - then I'll tell you who it's by, and you'll hate it".

So he did and I thought, "hmm, not bad, bit Beatlesque, yeah, I like it".

Then he said "that's the new single from New Kids On The Block", and instinctively (and to my shame) I went "oh, sh*t".

[Sheriff John Stone]

Put it this way:  if Mike had written "Southern California" and Brian had written "Summer In Paradise," do you honestly believe we'd all feel differently about the two songs?

Yes, Adam, I really do. I think a great many people would feel differently. And there's no pro-Mike or anti-Brian bias behind my answer. But, there is usually, not all the time, but usually, an anti-Mike and pro-Brian bias found when comparing material.

Take "Kokomo" for example. Millions of music fans around the world liked that song, but the anti-Mike crowd hammered it into submission. I submit that if the writing or production credit would've included BW (sorry, mikeyj), or even if Brian simply participated in the song, "Kokomo" would've been received more positively. Fast forward to 1998, and Brian releases "South American". Brian Wilson fans are singing its praises, noting it as one of the highlights of the album, and even clammering for its release as a single. Well, "South American" has no more artistic or musical merit than "Kokomo", but, because of the participants, it was and is viewed differently. 

And, for me, that is the bottom line with the Summer In Paradise album. It never had a chance. The album was Mike Love-led, it was produced by Terry Melcher, and it had zero participation from Brian Wilson. So, right out of the gate, it was a loser, couldn't have any merit. Why even give it a good listen. Well, how many of the post-MIU albums really had significant input from Brian? The answer is none. Did Summer In Paradise get a good listen?

L.A. (Light Album) seems to get some good reviews and recognition in BB/BW land. Just for the heck of it, compare Side B of L.A. (Light Album) and Side B of Summer In Paradise (I split the CD in half). Which one is stronger?

7. Here Comes The Night
8. Baby Blue
9. Goin' South
10. Shortenin' Bread

or

7. Strange Things Happen
8. Remember Walking In The Sand
9. Lahaina Aloha
10. Under The Boardwalk
11. Summer In Paradise
12. Forever 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Reminds me of the time a DJ said "I'll play you a song, and you'll like it - then I'll tell you who it's by, and you'll hate it".

So he did and I thought, "hmm, not bad, bit Beatlesque, yeah, I like it".

Then he said "that's the new single from New Kids On The Block", and instinctively (and to my shame) I went "oh, merda".

Yep, exactly.

[Wilsonista]

Reminds me of the time a DJ said "I'll play you a song, and you'll like it - then I'll tell you who it's by, and you'll hate it".

So he did and I thought, "hmm, not bad, bit Beatlesque, yeah, I like it".

Then he said "that's the new single from New Kids On The Block", and instinctively (and to my shame) I went "oh, merda".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_NOpy8-rVg

I liked it until I heard it recently after  many years. Maurice Starr took a songwriting page from Mike Love, it seems.

[adamghost]

Put it this way:  if Mike had written "Southern California" and Brian had written "Summer In Paradise," do you honestly believe we'd all feel differently about the two songs?

Yes, Adam, I really do. I think a great many people would feel differently. And there's no pro-Mike or anti-Brian bias behind my answer. But, there is usually, not all the time, but usually, an anti-Mike and pro-Brian bias found when comparing material.

Take "Kokomo" for example. Millions of music fans around the world liked that song, but the anti-Mike crowd hammered it into submission. I submit that if the writing or production credit would've included BW (sorry, mikeyj), or even if Brian simply participated in the song, "Kokomo" would've been received more positively. Fast forward to 1998, and Brian releases "South American". Brian Wilson fans are singing its praises, noting it as one of the highlights of the album, and even clammering for its release as a single. Well, "South American" has no more artistic or musical merit than "Kokomo", but, because of the participants, it was and is viewed differently. 

And, for me, that is the bottom line with the Summer In Paradise album. It never had a chance. The album was Mike Love-led, it was produced by Terry Melcher, and it had zero participation from Brian Wilson. So, right out of the gate, it was a loser, couldn't have any merit. Why even give it a good listen. Well, how many of the post-MIU albums really had significant input from Brian? The answer is none. Did Summer In Paradise get a good listen?

L.A. (Light Album) seems to get some good reviews and recognition in BB/BW land. Just for the heck of it, compare Side B of L.A. (Light Album) and Side B of Summer In Paradise (I split the CD in half). Which one is stronger?

7. Here Comes The Night
8. Baby Blue
9. Goin' South
10. Shortenin' Bread

or

7. Strange Things Happen
8. Remember Walking In The Sand
9. Lahaina Aloha
10. Under The Boardwalk
11. Summer In Paradise
12. Forever 

OK, I hate to go all Andrew Doe here (not that that's a bad thing, just contentious, but this is just poppycock all 'round.  I realize this is your opinion and I've got mine, but I can't believe you think this is a convincing argument to anybody.

First of all, i would take those four songs on L.A. over SIP any day of the week.  "Baby Blue" is sublime, I've always enjoyed "Here Comes The Night," and the other two tracks, while not high points, both have their charms.  But moreover, the production is more textured, the instruments are real, the sound heterogeneous.  Moreover I could cherry-pick my least favorite tracks on L.A., or even M.I.U. or KTSA, and still prefer them over SIP, which is just bland, overprocessed, dull and dumb (and you didn't even pick the one track on the album I happen to like).  It's not dissed because Mike and Terry Melcher produced it.  it's dissed because it's craptastic, and it IS craptastic in a particularly Mike Love sort of way, so yeah, he gets a certain amount of blame for that.  It's not the same as Mike-bashing...this argument is the same as when conservatives used the term Bush Derangement Syndrome to describe people that disliked Bush, as if there couldn't be perfectly valid policy reasons to feel that way.

Second, poppycock to the "South American" argument.  Were Brian Wilson fans REALLY singing its praises?  Because my only recollection is that a lot of us found it painful.  Do I find it preferable to a similarly lame Mike Love song?  Yes -- but only barely...I just think it's a marginally better song than SIP, but I make no excuses for it.  It's pretty bad, and contrived.   I feel that way about a lot of Brian's solo work.  The difference is, I feel this way about the vast majority of Mike's work post about 1970.  If I and people like me were really biased pro-Brian, we would indeed be praising "South American" and other songs...but we're not.  It's just that on the balance, while they've both sunk pretty low, there are a lot more Brian highlights than Mike highlights in the last 30 years (particularly TLOS, which is pretty good).

I think the double standard you THINK you perceive is an aesthetic question.  If the concept of soul doesn't mean that much to you, then yeah, a song like "Kokomo" is as good as "Melt Away."  They're both pretty, ballad-like songs, and "Kokomo" connected with way more people.

As to the "at 25 I turn out the light" lyric, one duff line does not a bad lyric make and that line is from a completely different song!  Find me any line in SIP, the song or anything on SIP the album for that matter, as evocative and moving as any verse on "Southern California."  I mean, give me a break.  That's the whole argument right there.  If you can't hear the difference between that and a song like "Kokomo," then I don't know how to explain it to you.

Everyone has their own tastes but to me the people that champion SIP have always been the ones grading on a curve.  I can see where someone on a surface level would enjoy it, but it really has none of the soul, vibrancy, heart, or even sonic interest of the Beach Boys' classic work, nor is it as interesting in a cracked way as their later stuff.  It's just plastic, which is fine if you like plastic, but that's what it is:  plastic.  Not because Mike Love did it but because that is what it is and what it is designed to be.

Quick story:  back in 1991 or so I had a cassette copy of this album at work.  Our tech guy borrowed it to check out the tape machine.  When he gave it back he said, "I had a listened to that Beach Boys album you had."  I said, "yeah?"  And he just shook his head and made this grimace as if to say it was beyond bad.  And I knew exactly what he meant.  That's how someone outside the BBs world reacted viscerally to that album.

Alrighty, vent over.

[Jonathan Blum]

Put it this way:  if Mike had written "Southern California" and Brian had written "Summer In Paradise," do you honestly believe we'd all feel differently about the two songs?

Yes, Adam, I really do. I think a great many people would feel differently. And there's no pro-Mike or anti-Brian bias behind my answer. But, there is usually, not all the time, but usually, an anti-Mike and pro-Brian bias found when comparing material.

Take "Kokomo" for example. Millions of music fans around the world liked that song, but the anti-Mike crowd hammered it into submission.

See, there's your problem:  you think the praise for "Kokomo" has been hammered into submission.

But where I'm standing, "Kokomo" is well thought of -- a big hit single, catchy, well performed, not a major artistic statement but then it's not trying to be.  And "Southern California" is well thought of -- the emotive conclusion to the biggest hit album of new material from anywhere in the Beach Boys world in twenty years, critically praised and generally appreciated.  They each succeeded on their own terms.  "Summer In Paradise"... not so much.

So I don't think this bias is anywhere near as big or widespread as you think it is.  Now, "Kokomo" may be marked down on this board or a few others like it...  but it's always a trap to mistake a few loud fans on a message board for widespread opinion.  You're standing in the middle of an echo chamber and complaining you can't hear the music.

Well, "South American" has no more artistic or musical merit than "Kokomo", but, because of the participants, it was and is viewed differently.  

I think they're viewed about the same, actually, by those who view them both -- well-done pop that makes it look effortless.

Now, I do think "Kokomo" is treated as shorthand for Mike's shortcomings, but that's got little to do with opinions of the song itself, and more to do with it representing a high-water-mark for Mike's artistic ambitions.  If "South American" were the most ambitious song Brian released -- if it wasn't sitting on the same disk with "Cry" and "Lay Down Burden", or part of a solo career that includes "Midnight's Another Day" and "Rio Grande" -- it might attract flak too.

Did Summer In Paradise get a good listen?

I was in college when it came out, and it didn't convince me to give it a good listen.  But "Kokomo" did.  And so did "South American", when I picked up "Imagination" on a whim after buying the Beach Boys box set.

L.A. (Light Album) seems to get some good reviews and recognition in BB/BW land. Just for the heck of it, compare Side B of L.A. (Light Album) and Side B of Summer In Paradise (I split the CD in half). Which one is stronger?

Again, from where I'm standing, three out of the four songs on LA work perfectly well at what they're aiming to be.  If I'm feeling in touch with my inner Travolta?  "Here Comes The Night" is a perfectly groovy disco track.  In the mood for wistful yacht-rock?  "Goin' South" fits the bill.  Slam-you-against-the-wall artistic beauty?  Nothing finer than "Baby Blue".  Who knows, maybe "Shortenin' Bread" would work on its own terms too, if I could only figure out what those terms were...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Andrew G. Doe]

"Now, I do think "Kokomo" is treated as shorthand for Mike's shortcomings, but that's got little to do with opinions of the song itself, and more to do with it representing a high-water-mark for Mike's artistic ambitions."

Mike wrote very little of "Kokomo", actually (just the "Aruba/Jamaica..." riff & lyric) - the greater bulk of the song  (verse/chorus) was written in summer 1984 by Papa John & Scott Mackenzie. In Virginia Beach, no less.

And I have no shame in announcing that I like "South American". 

[Aegir]

Mike also claims to have written the line "by and by we'll defy a little bit of gravity" and to have moved the song from the past tense "that's where we used to go" to the present tense "that's where we wanna go".

[Eric Aniversario]

Mike also claims to have written the line "by and by we'll defy a little bit of gravity" and to have moved the song from the past tense "that's where we used to go" to the present tense "that's where we wanna go".

Wow, that was a good call on Mike's part...the song would have had a totally different vibe to it if it was about a place where they used to go...I'm glad he changed it.  There are enough nostalgic songs about the past in the Beach Boys catalog.  I don't think that Kokomo would have been quite as big of a hit if it had been sung in past tense.  Plus, Carl singing the phrase "that's where we used to go" just doesn't have a good ring to it...kind of awkward.

[Eric Aniversario]

Reminds me of the time a DJ said "I'll play you a song, and you'll like it - then I'll tell you who it's by, and you'll hate it".

So he did and I thought, "hmm, not bad, bit Beatlesque, yeah, I like it".

Then he said "that's the new single from New Kids On The Block", and instinctively (and to my shame) I went "oh, merda".

When I read this, I immediately knew you were talking about the song "Tonight".

[Pretty Funky]

The Best Part of SIP?

Introduced me to the original 'Hot Fun' from Sly!....Sweeeet.

[donald]

The art of nostalgia is a tricky business, psychologically speaking.   It needs to be a bit poetic, and even somewhat abstract.

If you bring in some images that evoke warm feelings about the past that sneak up on the listener or observer...that let the listener fill in the dots and missing pieces from his own past, it is effective.  If you just start listing and commenting on things about the past, it is just a documentary.

Some of Mike's songs such as looking back with love and sip are more like documentaries.   A song like Do It Again, leaves some room for the listener to relate in his own way.

No knock on Mike, just an observation.  As someone says, when Mike just goes with his gut and heart he can come up with some nice lyrics.....and we all pretty much know which songs are good...

[TdHabib]

I like "South American". 

So do I.

[JeffRetro]

I want to know what happened to this guy:

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air

That verse is one of the best lyrics in the entire Beach Boys catalog by anyone, Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks included.  It's beautifully written and creates an indelible, slightly abstract image in the mind that complements Brian's music perfectly while remaining in that boy/girl genre.  Now it's become almost a contest to see how many times Mike can rhyme romance, glance, and chance.

The art of nostalgia is a tricky business, psychologically speaking.   It needs to be a bit poetic, and even somewhat abstract.

If you bring in some images that evoke warm feelings about the past that sneak up on the listener or observer...that let the listener fill in the dots and missing pieces from his own past, it is effective.  If you just start listing and commenting on things about the past, it is just a documentary.

Another way of looking back is done brilliantly (and very affectingly) by Flo & Eddie in their oustanding "Keep It Warm" from their excellent 1977 LP MOVING TARGETS where they basically ask what happened to the ideals we had in the 60's, and how did it all end up going so terribly wrong?  Short verses on both the Beach Boys and the Beatles are used to great effect here to illustrate the point.  But it ends on a positive note, softening the blow and expressing hope that the future will be better.

[adamghost]

What a string of fantastic, well thought-out posts.

[Jonathan Blum]

I want to know what happened to this guy:

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air

That verse is one of the best lyrics in the entire Beach Boys catalog by anyone, Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks included.  It's beautifully written and creates an indelible, slightly abstract image in the mind that complements Brian's music perfectly while remaining in that boy/girl genre.

Yea verily yea.  I'm still hoping for the guy who turned "Don't Let Me Wonder" into "Please Let Me Wonder" to make a reappearance.  He knew a thing or two about dealing with complicated emotions.  Anyone know if there's anything in that vein on the still-forthcoming album?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Sheriff John Stone]

I want to know what happened to this guy:

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air

That verse is one of the best lyrics in the entire Beach Boys catalog by anyone, Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks included.  It's beautifully written and creates an indelible, slightly abstract image in the mind that complements Brian's music perfectly while remaining in that boy/girl genre.

Yea verily yea.  I'm still hoping for the guy who turned "Don't Let Me Wonder" into "Please Let Me Wonder" to make a reappearance.  He knew a thing or two about dealing with complicated emotions.  Anyone know if there's anything in that vein on the still-forthcoming album?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

I think Mike is more than ready, willing, and able to write lyrics like that, and has been for about the last 25 years. Unfortunately, his old partner, the guy who supplied the music, doesn't want to work with him anymore.

[adamghost]

Good God...quadruple poppycock.  He can't write a decent lyric because Brian won't write with him?  What, does Brian have to hold Mike's hand so the pen won't shake loose?  If Mike's a decent lyricist he can write what he wants, when he wants, regardless of who's with him.

The only way your post would make sense is if Brian was doing the bulk of the lyric writing and Mike was just tinkering around the margins.  Wait a minute...

Seriously, JS, you've lost your own argument with that post.

[adamghost]

And as an afterthought to that, wasn't the outcome of the last time Brian and Mike wrote together "Baywatch Nights?"  Wasn't that supposedly so bad Carl walked out of the '96 sessions?  That part may be apocryphal but there's no outward evidence to suggest Brian is going to suddenly make Mike raise his game lyrically into deeper emotional and more poetic waters...

[Sheriff John Stone]

Good God...quadruple poppycock.  He can't write a decent lyric because Brian won't write with him?  What, does Brian have to hold Mike's hand so the pen won't shake loose?  If Mike's a decent lyricist he can write what he wants, when he wants, regardless of who's with him.

The only way your post would make sense is if Brian was doing the bulk of the lyric writing and Mike was just tinkering around the margins.  Wait a minute...

Seriously, JS, you've lost your own argument with that post.

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've ever read. You should be embarrassed to actually write something like this.

Most people know, obviously you don't, that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team. Mike did an excellent job at taking Brian's ideas and concepts, and inserting some of his own, to write many of the great Beach Boys' songs, including the one's referenced above. Mike has written decent lyrics on his own, and with other Beach Boys, including the fine work he did with Dennis (Sound Of Free, Only With You, Pacific Ocean Blue). I even saw a documentary where Brian stated that something "special" happened when he and Mike wrote together.

It has never been claimed, including by Brian himself, that Brian wrote the bulk of the lyrics in his collaborations with Mike. Didn't you know that?

And who is JS? Adam your post is a ghost of a post. You oughta re-read them before you click on "post".

[Sheriff John Stone]

And as an afterthought to that, wasn't the outcome of the last time Brian and Mike wrote together "Baywatch Nights?"

Now who is cherry-picking songs? Of all the great songs that Brian and Mike wrote, you highlighted that one? And you accused me of cherry-picking? Adam, do you know how to spell hypocrite?