The best part of SIP

[Sound of Free]

I want to know what happened to this guy:

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air

That verse is one of the best lyrics in the entire Beach Boys catalog by anyone, Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks included.  It's beautifully written and creates an indelible, slightly abstract image in the mind that complements Brian's music perfectly while remaining in that boy/girl genre.  Now it's become almost a contest to see how many times Mike can rhyme romance, glance, and chance.

How about "I don't know where but she sends me there."

That might be THE best lyric in a BB song. It's a great job by Mike of marrying his "boy/girl" senisibilities with Brian's "psychedelicate" music.

[b00ts]

Good God...quadruple poppycock.  He can't write a decent lyric because Brian won't write with him?  What, does Brian have to hold Mike's hand so the pen won't shake loose?  If Mike's a decent lyricist he can write what he wants, when he wants, regardless of who's with him.

The only way your post would make sense is if Brian was doing the bulk of the lyric writing and Mike was just tinkering around the margins.  Wait a minute...

Seriously, JS, you've lost your own argument with that post.

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've ever read. You should be embarrassed to actually write something like this.

Most people know, obviously you don't, that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team. Mike did an excellent job at taking Brian's ideas and concepts, and inserting some of his own, to write many of the great Beach Boys' songs, including the one's referenced above. Mike has written decent lyrics on his own, and with other Beach Boys, including the fine work he did with Dennis (Sound Of Free, Only With You, Pacific Ocean Blue). I even saw a documentary where Brian stated that something "special" happened when he and Mike wrote together.

It has never been claimed, including by Brian himself, that Brian wrote the bulk of the lyrics in his collaborations with Mike. Didn't you know that?

And who is JS? Adam your post is a ghost of a post. You oughta re-read them before you click on "post".

Sheriff John Stone, why won't you leave him alone? It's a fucking message board, for Christ's sakes. Relax.

Seriously, though, let's look at this with a cool head and a warm heart. Perhaps Adam was a bit harsh on your post. However, he was not claiming that Brian wrote the bulk of the songs' lyrics during his collaboration with Mike. I don't know where you got that idea.

Indeed, what he, and others here, were lamenting was the seeming loss of Mr. Love's ability to write "relatable" boy-girl lyrics with true artistic depth, such as the aforementioned "Good Vibrations" lyrics and "Warmth of the Sun," and many more continuing into the mid-70s and tapering off by the early 1980s. My estimates, of course; data from the WMO (World Musical Organization) is unavailable at the moment.

Is this due to Mike's change in focus? Does he simply not have the ability to write those types of songs anymore? If so, would he magically re-gain that ability if he wrote with Brian again?

What Adam seems to be saying is that Mike would not magically re-gain his ability to write beautiful lyrics, and "Baywatch Nights" is used as an example of this because it is the most recent song that Brian and Mike have written together, as far as we know. Of course, we have never heard this song, and Carl was known to eschew songs that would have been great additions to the Beach Boys canon, but something tells me that "Baywatch Nights," a spinoff of a vacuous syndicated daytime American television show, is not fertile subject matter for a beautiful ballad in the same way that the assasination of JFK inspired "The Warmth of the Sun."

You claim that Mike never lost that ability. You may be right. If Brian and Mike sit down tomorrow, maybe they will write a ballad as beautiful as "Southern California" or "Lay Down Burden." Personally, I haven't heard anything like that on Unleash the Love/Mike Love Not War, or any of the Beach Boys' 'recent' output. I'd like to see some more recent examples (1980-2009) of lyrics that Mr. Love has written that are in the vein of "Warmth of the Sun" and "Good Vibrations." Songs like "All I Wanna Do" from Sunflower, "Big Sur," and on the lower rung, "Sumahama." Songs that make a real emotional connection.

Of course, you could come back saying that "Still Surfin'" is a great example of a beautiful, artistic work by Mr. Love. It's all subjective. So let's have it, then. What are the lyrics he has written in recent years that you feel are artistically evocative? I would perhaps name "Cool Head, Warm Heart" as one, although it is somewhat trite..

[adamghost]

And as an afterthought to that, wasn't the outcome of the last time Brian and Mike wrote together "Baywatch Nights?"

Now who is cherry-picking songs? Of all the great songs that Brian and Mike wrote, you highlighted that one? And you accused me of cherry-picking? Adam, do you know how to spell hypocrite?

Nope, not cherry-picking at all.  Your post was that if only ol' Brian would let Mike write with him again, Mike would assume his old flair.  They did just that very thing...in 1995.  "Baywatch Nights" was what resulted.  I wasn't picking the worst song...I was pointing out the actual real-world result of your hypothetical idea.  In other words, REPLYING SPECIFICALLY TO THE POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE...that's the opposite of cherry-picking.

And again on the topic of missing the point:  I didn't claim Brian wrote most of the lyrics.  I pointed out that that was the logical inference of YOUR post, because that's the only way what you wrote made sense.  Because otherwise, you're making the suggestion that the only reason Mike can't/won't write a good, heartfelt lyric is because Brian won't write with him.  You're actually claiming it's all Brian's fault that Mike doesn't write decent lyrics anymore, and in almost the same breath suggesting people who criticize Mike's output are biased towards Brian and against Mike.  Wow!

I'm fully aware that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team (as were Brian and Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian...all of whom scored hits and wrote great lyrics with Brian, admittedly less frequently than did Cousin Mike, but I digress).  That doesn't prevent Mike from writing with other people, which he has, with less than spectacular results I would submit, but I think you're trying to say that it's the Brian-Mike TEAM that made all those great songs, and without being a part of that team, what Mike comes up with is less than special.  And since Brian has done some of his best work (e.g. PET SOUNDS) largely WITHOUT Mike's input, you completely negate your own point.

JS is John Stone.  As in, Sheriff John Stone.  Your username. 

I mean, good grief, dude.  You're jumping all over me and I'm just responding on point, logically, to what YOU are saying and inferring.  I don't mind a good bash-up on a message board, and my feelin's ain't hurt, but from your responses it almost seems like I read your posts more carefully, and thought through their implications, than you did! Just sayin'.

I think where you're coming from is that you like the Brian-Mike collaborations best, and you like the Mike Love vibe.  That's great.  The idea that getting those guys back together is going to create the old magic, that Brian needs Mike to make great music, that people are biased against Mike unduly...those are all assertions you've made that may be true, it's just that all the objective evidence points in the opposite direction...including some of your own arguments!  That's my point.

[MBE]

SIP is a bomb (to me) lyrically, so was almost everything else since say 1977 or so. There are exceptions. I thought his work lyrically on the First Love tracks and even the more recent Unleash The Love weren't bad. At least he wasn't trying to be "Mr. Beach Boy".  I would say Goin On was pretty darn good. That's the song that made Mike stop his anger towards his cousin during the Goldmine interview reflect a moment and say how great Brian was. Frankly we don't know how good Brian and Mike would be together since 1980. After that they wrote 2-3 songs tops. It could bring out the worst or the best, I would like to see them try but I am not holding my breath.

[adamghost]

Oh and for what it's worth, I've heard a few songs from Mike's solo album and I was favorably impressed by some of them.  I've said so before. 

It's a funny thing about "bias" -- I hear that word shouted loudest by people who themselves are rabid partisans.  Applying an objective yardstick to two people (or ideas or idealogies), and finding one scores higher than the other, is not bias.  It's actually the opposite of bias.  The point of objectivity isn't to have an equal outcome for both sides, it's to judge both fairly and equally.  A lot of people don't get that.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think where you're coming from is that you like the Brian-Mike collaborations best, and you like the Mike Love vibe.  That's great.  The idea that getting those guys back together is going to create the old magic, that Brian needs Mike to make great music, that people are biased against Mike unduly...those are all assertions you've made that may be true, it's just that all the objective evidence points in the opposite direction...including some of your own arguments!  That's my point.

And you would be wrong - again. When it comes to trying to analyze my posts, you simply don't know what you're talking about. And you're insulting and condesending.

You think I like Brian-Mike collaborations best? You're wrong. My three favorite albums are SMiLE (lyricist Van Dyke Parks), Pet Sounds (Tony Asher), and Love You (practically a BW solo album).

You say I like the Mike Love vibe? No more than any other Beach Boys' vibe. Actually, I like Mike's vibe LESS than Brian, Dennis, and Carl's. But, I'll defend Mike's vibe, because it was an integral part of the group. I don't agree with everything Mike did, but, when it comes to the a--hole meter, Mike's no higher than the rest.

Regardless of what you say, people are unduly biased against Mike Love. Maybe you aren't, but, if you read many of the posts on the various Beach Boys' message boards, and I have, you will see the bias.

If Brian and Mike collaborated again, maybe they would re-create the old magic. And, maybe they wouldn't. I think there's a chance, you don't think there's much of a chance. But, your opinion is no better than mine. And, you are wrong when you say that the objective evidence points in the opposite direction. You pointed to one song (yes, it was their "latest"), but it was an attempt at a song for a TV show! That's a lot different than sitting down and working on a new album project.

Does Mike depend on Brian to some extent for him (Mike) to come up with good lyrics? Of course he does. I NEVER DENIED THAT. That's what I was getting at when I responded to the question why Mike doesn't write lyrics like "Good Vibrations" or "Please Let Me Wonder". Yeah, there's a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being effective when it's paired with genius songwriting. There's also a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being less effective when paired with less than genius songwriting, such as the songs you choose to point out, which are substantially less (in number) than the great ones.

And, that will be my final point - for now! The overwhelming number of B.Wilson/M. Love collaborations are great. I personally don't think they ever had a bad album, from the surf & turf albums, to Wild Honey, to the couple of Sunflower tracks, to even MIU. And I will base my opinions/hopes/predictions for the future on that track record. You can point out the few "clunkers" to make your point. But, that doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make me wrong.   

[TdHabib]

What a string of fantastic, well thought-out posts.

Thanks for calling my three-word-post well thought out Adam

[TdHabib]

And as an afterthought to that, wasn't the outcome of the last time Brian and Mike wrote together "Baywatch Nights?"  Wasn't that supposedly so bad Carl walked out of the '96 sessions?  That part may be apocryphal but there's no outward evidence to suggest Brian is going to suddenly make Mike raise his game lyrically into deeper emotional and more poetic waters...

There was an interview on Youtube from 2006 where Mike mentioned that Brian gave him a CD of a new melody wanting Love to contribute lyrics, but Mike said he didn't want to work that way. I'm 100% certain of this, it's just a damn shame it's not on Youtube anymore!

[TdHabib]

I'm WAY in the minority about this, but with the one exception of "Rock and Roll to the Resque" I haven't personally found one full set of lyrics from Mike that don't have one cringe-worthy moment since his stuff on 15 Big Ones (possible exception of the bridge on "Let Us Go on this Way," but that is only a bridge)...it's just my opinion and I just wanted to state that. And you throw stones, but personally I found the "blossom world" line cringe-worthy in "Good Vibrations," it's an absolutely fantastic track with the exception of that one line. I'll get blasted for saying that most likely---but VDP and Tony Asher could write convincing psychedelic lyrics...Mike couldn't.

AND don't forget this is coming from the man that cried after hearing the second side of the "Today" album minus "Bull Session" when I was 16. I like Mike Love just not some of his lyrics.

And with that...I'm going to sleep...GOODNIGHT EVERYBODY!

[Jonathan Blum]

I think Mike is more than ready, willing, and able to write lyrics like that, and has been for about the last 25 years. Unfortunately, his old partner, the guy who supplied the music, doesn't want to work with him anymore.

I'd be happy if he put lyrics like that over "Big Sur".  He could clearly manage something good on his own, or with another composer, if he wants to try an emotionally sensitive ballad.

But it didn't seem like a priority for Mike when given an opportunity to write with the modern Brian -- again, viz "Baywatch Nights"...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[TonyW]

Sleep tight petal ... enjoy the blossom world that sleep duth bring ............

[Andrew G. Doe]

Most people know, obviously you don't, that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team... It has never been claimed, including by Brian himself, that Brian wrote the bulk of the lyrics in his collaborations with Mike. Didn't you know that?

Er... maybe I'm missing something here, but do you know who Adam is ?

[Awesoman]

Good God...quadruple poppycock.  He can't write a decent lyric because Brian won't write with him?  What, does Brian have to hold Mike's hand so the pen won't shake loose?  If Mike's a decent lyricist he can write what he wants, when he wants, regardless of who's with him.

The only way your post would make sense is if Brian was doing the bulk of the lyric writing and Mike was just tinkering around the margins.  Wait a minute...

Seriously, JS, you've lost your own argument with that post.

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've ever read. You should be embarrassed to actually write something like this.

Most people know, obviously you don't, that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team. Mike did an excellent job at taking Brian's ideas and concepts, and inserting some of his own, to write many of the great Beach Boys' songs, including the one's referenced above. Mike has written decent lyrics on his own, and with other Beach Boys, including the fine work he did with Dennis (Sound Of Free, Only With You, Pacific Ocean Blue). I even saw a documentary where Brian stated that something "special" happened when he and Mike wrote together.

It has never been claimed, including by Brian himself, that Brian wrote the bulk of the lyrics in his collaborations with Mike. Didn't you know that?

To simplify this "tinkle tinkle" contest: Mike and Brian have written good songs together; they've also written bad songs as well.  Mike Love is not a masterful lyricist by any  means, but can sometimes rise to the occasion with songs like "Warmth of the Sun".  Of course, he's also rhymed "vibrations" with "assassinations"...

[adamghost]

I think where you're coming from is that you like the Brian-Mike collaborations best, and you like the Mike Love vibe.  That's great.  The idea that getting those guys back together is going to create the old magic, that Brian needs Mike to make great music, that people are biased against Mike unduly...those are all assertions you've made that may be true, it's just that all the objective evidence points in the opposite direction...including some of your own arguments!  That's my point.

And you would be wrong - again. When it comes to trying to analyze my posts, you simply don't know what you're talking about. And you're insulting and condesending.

You think I like Brian-Mike collaborations best? You're wrong. My three favorite albums are SMiLE (lyricist Van Dyke Parks), Pet Sounds (Tony Asher), and Love You (practically a BW solo album).

You say I like the Mike Love vibe? No more than any other Beach Boys' vibe. Actually, I like Mike's vibe LESS than Brian, Dennis, and Carl's. But, I'll defend Mike's vibe, because it was an integral part of the group. I don't agree with everything Mike did, but, when it comes to the a--hole meter, Mike's no higher than the rest.

Regardless of what you say, people are unduly biased against Mike Love. Maybe you aren't, but, if you read many of the posts on the various Beach Boys' message boards, and I have, you will see the bias.

If Brian and Mike collaborated again, maybe they would re-create the old magic. And, maybe they wouldn't. I think there's a chance, you don't think there's much of a chance. But, your opinion is no better than mine. And, you are wrong when you say that the objective evidence points in the opposite direction. You pointed to one song (yes, it was their "latest"), but it was an attempt at a song for a TV show! That's a lot different than sitting down and working on a new album project.

Does Mike depend on Brian to some extent for him (Mike) to come up with good lyrics? Of course he does. I NEVER DENIED THAT. That's what I was getting at when I responded to the question why Mike doesn't write lyrics like "Good Vibrations" or "Please Let Me Wonder". Yeah, there's a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being effective when it's paired with genius songwriting. There's also a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being less effective when paired with less than genius songwriting, such as the songs you choose to point out, which are substantially less (in number) than the great ones.

And, that will be my final point - for now! The overwhelming number of B.Wilson/M. Love collaborations are great. I personally don't think they ever had a bad album, from the surf & turf albums, to Wild Honey, to the couple of Sunflower tracks, to even MIU. And I will base my opinions/hopes/predictions for the future on that track record. You can point out the few "clunkers" to make your point. But, that doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make me wrong.   

Well, let's see here:

You say I'm insulting and condescending but I think the strongest word I used was "poppycock."  You've used "idiotic" and "hypocrite," my friend.  As I said, I don't mind a little internet slug-fest...no bones broken, but you've been much nastier in this exchange than I have, so you don't have much basis to say I've been unduly rude to you.

"You think I like Brian-Mike collaborations best? You're wrong."

Fine!  I was just trying to find to find a nice way to summarize what seemed to be your position in a way that wasn't "insulting", not put words in your mouth.  If you say so, I believe you.

"You say I like the Mike Love vibe? "

Again, I wasn't "saying" anything, just going by what you've posted.  So again, if I misunderstood you, fine.

"Regardless of what you say, people are unduly biased against Mike Love."

I don't think I said that.  I said that YOU were making that assertion without a valid argument to back it up, and I took apart your argument (e.g. "South American" vs. SIP and LA vs. SIP).  Now you've done the same thing once again.  Saying so and believing it doesn't make it objectively true.

"Maybe you aren't, but, if you read many of the posts on the various Beach Boys' message boards, and I have, you will see the bias. "

I refer you, if you haven't seen it, to my post on the topic of bias.  It's a word that gets tossed around a lot when the facts aren't on one's side...(I'm not specifically referring to you here, but the word "bias" is usually the mark of someone with a losing argument)  Maybe all the Love-haters have valid reasons, like, they honestly think his songs and/or his demeanor sucks.  If you start out evaluating everyone equally, and decide one person is bigger on the "a--hole meter" than everybody else, that is not bias.  They could be WRONG (we don't know these people, after all), but it doesn't necessarily mean bias.

<<I think there's a chance, you don't think there's much of a chance. But, your opinion is no better than mine. >>

Correct.  Which is why I keep trying to make a distinction between belief and evidence.

<<And, you are wrong when you say that the objective evidence points in the opposite direction. You pointed to one song (yes, it was their "latest"), but it was an attempt at a song for a TV show! That's a lot different than sitting down and working on a new album project.>>

I pointed to the one song that referenced your specific argument.  Your point about it being a song for a TV show is totally valid, and I agree with you up to a point, though I believe it was later rewritten for the BBs as "Dancing the Night Away" and didn't really raise the game much.  But anyhow...that point is taken.  However, it's still evidence, and to back that up, we have all the Wilson-Love songs on KTSA and MIU to consider.  A few decent lyrics ("Goin' On") but a lot more than wasn't all that great and I'm not sure there was any real magic there.  Perhaps that's a matter of opinion.

Point being:  you're right that no one can possibly know if the magic would be there if a sustained Wilson-Love collaboration would be there.  But I am right to assert that the evidence points the other way, in that the available Wilson-Love collaborations in the last 30 years or so have been, by and large, nothing special and not better than the work Wilson has done on his own (or Love for that matter), including "Baywatch Nights."  This contradicts your argument.  This does not prove anything...but evidence is not the same as proof.  Ergo, not wrong.

<<Yeah, there's a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being effective when it's paired with genius songwriting. There's also a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being less effective when paired with less than genius songwriting, such as the songs you choose to point out, which are substantially less (in number) than the great ones.>>

OK....but...sheesh.  OK, so then why is it a cheap shot (or biased, as you say) to point out that Mike's lyrics for the last 30 years, by and large, have been lame?  It may be that Mike needs Brian to do something really great, but if so, how does that support an argument that there's a pervasive anti-Mike bias?  Maybe he's just not a very good lyricist of late, period.  And given that, I don't see the argument that he and Brian need to get back together.  If Brian doesn't want to do it, and there are other lyricists he enjoys working with with good batting averages, I don't see why he should.  The only reason as far as I can see would be to make Mike happy.  Which is fine as far as it goes, but I don't think any of them owe any of the others anything at this point.  If they WANT to, fine.  None of our business either way, really.

"The overwhelming number of B.Wilson/M. Love collaborations are great. I personally don't think they ever had a bad album, from the surf & turf albums, to Wild Honey, to the couple of Sunflower tracks, to even MIU. And I will base my opinions/hopes/predictions for the future on that track record. You can point out the few "clunkers" to make your point. But, that doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make me wrong. "

Well, great.  But we're talking about Mike and what he specifically brings to the party.  I think most of the Brian Wilson compositions, up to around MIU, are good to great, including the ones Mike was involved with and the ones he wasn't.  I think -- as do many others -- that most of the lyrics Mike has been involved with post-HOLLAND have been mediocre to poor, with a few exceptions.  On that basis, I think anyone who wants to take issue with Mike's lyrical ability has perfect, logical grounds to do so.

In other words, not biased.  A valid opinion based on both aesthetic opinion AND objective fact, which you are free to agree or disagree with.  But bias?  Again:  a large number of people reaching a conclusion different to your own does not bias make.

And again, I like a few of Mike's new songs.  There are some that sound genuine, heartfelt and unforced.  I was pleasantly surprised.  If I were truly biased, I would have sh*t all over them.

[adamghost]

Of course, he's also rhymed "vibrations" with "assassinations"...

LMFAO

[Pretty Funky]

From memory, Mike has said he thinks 'Til I Die' was the last great BW song.

What does anyone think the last great ML lyric was?

[mikeyj]

From memory, Mike has said he thinks 'Til I Die' was the last great BW song.

I thought it was Heroes And Villains that Mike said was the last great Brian song/production and it was Bruce who said Til I Die? Perhaps Mike has said that as well though? Not sure.

[phirnis]

From memory, Mike has said he thinks 'Til I Die' was the last great BW song.

What does anyone think the last great ML lyric was?

If we're talking about GREAT lyrics: "Big Sur".

[Aegir]

Of course, he's also rhymed "vibrations" with "assassinations"...

LMFAO

Mike didn't write that song.

[smile-holland]

From memory, Mike has said he thinks 'Til I Die' was the last great BW song.

What does anyone think the last great ML lyric was?

If we're talking about GREAT lyrics: "Big Sur".

Pacific Ocean Blues wasn't bad either.

[southbay]

Sorry, but what does any of this "discussion" have to do with SIP???

[Alex]

Sorry, but what does any of this "discussion" have to do with SIP???

Absolutely nothing at all!!

[Dancing Bear]

From memory, Mike has said he thinks 'Til I Die' was the last great BW song.

What does anyone think the last great ML lyric was?

If we're talking about GREAT lyrics: "Big Sur".

Pacific Ocean Blues wasn't bad either.

Indeed, that was a good one, one of the best in teh album. Maybe Mike needs to write lyrics by phone again.

[adamghost]

I'm fond of "Rock 'n' Roll To The Rescue," myself.

[donald]

Adam, I too like Rock and Roll to the Rescue.    I just wish Brian could have been in better vocal form at the time.  That particular variety of his vocal style, of the different voices he has presented over the years, is least pleasant of all, from his sweeet falsetto to his gruff voice circa 15 BO and Love You, to his current singing voice.  It sounds like the Paley era voice....which I didn't care for.    I have often wished this song could have or will be rerecorded.  But we would have to leave the Carl Wilson section alone!

I heard them perform this live once....Brian absent...and it sounded fantastic.  I still remember Carl's voice ringing out over the stadium...go cat go!