The Reception Of BWPS

[variable2]

So folks, remember: it could have been worse.

I'll go one better and say it could not have been better, short of just releasing the original tapes...which may have been impossible for Brian psychologically speaking and possibly legally speaking. Would the BBs have gone for it?  As it happened, Brian had the best possible band he could have had. Darian, for one, could not be a bigger fan of the original Smile tapes, and he and the others tried really, really hard to replicate that, knowing full well they couldn't pretend to be the BBs. So it's Smile, 2004 version, but it's as faithful to what is known of Brian's original as possible.

/thread   

[donald]

Not too much good music coming out for mass consumption these days.  I do think there is a lot of good music that goes unnoticed by the mainstream and I listen for it on certain public radio stations that play an eccletic mix of new and old that one seldom hears on the commercial radio (translate that to clearchannel inc) .

My teen children have great taste in music and have kept me in touch with a lotof the good stuff. 

I think there is newer  music that has been around for a few years that is just now being discovered or may be discovered and appreciated in years to come.  My favorite "new" music at present is Neko Case...although she is not exactly a newcomer.  And there seems to be a connection with the old school in her music .

World Cafe on NPR is good for new sounds.  If you live where you can get the Athens Ohio based public radio music shows you should check out Below the Salt, Audio Synchrocies, and several other alt music shows broadcast from there. 

Sorry about the tangent.

[variable2]

Not too much good music coming out for mass consumption these days.  I do think there is a lot of good music that goes unnoticed by the mainstream and I listen for it on certain public radio stations that play an eccletic mix of new and old that one seldom hears on the commercial radio (translate that to clearchannel inc) .

My teen children have great taste in music and have kept me in touch with a lotof the good stuff. 

I think there is newer  music that has been around for a few years that is just now being discovered or may be discovered and appreciated in years to come.  My favorite "new" music at present is Neko Case...although she is not exactly a newcomer.  And there seems to be a connection with the old school in her music .

World Cafe on NPR is good for new sounds.  If you live where you can get the Athens Ohio based public radio music shows you should check out Below the Salt, Audio Synchrocies, and several other alt music shows broadcast from there. 

Sorry about the tangent.

check out Fleet Foxes.. they are the best new band I have heard in quite a while

[TonyW]

IMHO ... the second movement of BWPS of W/SFC/CIFOTM/SU stands as the best BB/BW recorded moment since .. well ... 1967!

[SG7]

IMHO ... the second movement of BWPS of W/SFC/CIFOTM/SU stands as the best BB/BW recorded moment since .. well ... 1967!

Agreed!!

[the captain]

Not too much good music coming out for mass consumption these days.  I do think there is a lot of good music that goes unnoticed by the mainstream and I listen for it on certain public radio stations that play an eccletic mix of new and old that one seldom hears on the commercial radio (translate that to clearchannel inc) .

My teen children have great taste in music and have kept me in touch with a lotof the good stuff. 

I think there is newer  music that has been around for a few years that is just now being discovered or may be discovered and appreciated in years to come.  My favorite "new" music at present is Neko Case...although she is not exactly a newcomer.  And there seems to be a connection with the old school in her music .

World Cafe on NPR is good for new sounds.  If you live where you can get the Athens Ohio based public radio music shows you should check out Below the Salt, Audio Synchrocies, and several other alt music shows broadcast from there. 

Sorry about the tangent.

While you're at it, check out the fully great Minnesota Public Radio station "The Current," which is entirely music, largely of the modern, indie varieties (although with a lot of local music and some classics, hits, rarities, and a few current major label things added in). It streams online, too. I kid you not, the best radio station I've ever heard, bar none--in large part because you get everything from brilliance to sh*t, no apologies. DJs program their own playlists. They take real requests. They are humans, not computers being programmed by Disney/AOL/Warner/Whatever. Been a godsend in Mpls.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/radio/services/the_current/

[b00ts]

Don - you made me laugh out loud.

Glad to see so much love for BWPS here. It is true that Brian was announced to be working on completing SMiLe at least once in the late 70s/early 80s and once in the late 1980s? Or am I mistaken?

If so, was there any abortive work on another SMiLe in the 70s or 80s?

Regardless, SMiLe 2004 is one of the biggest success stories in Brian's career, and that of the Beach Boys as a whole. I agree that there is no way it could have been better. When it was released, I was shocked at how closely they matched the original.

b00ts

[the captain]

If so, was there any abortive work on another SMiLe in the 70s or 80s?

Well, it was at least discussed (and I believe contractually required in order for the band to fully collect on its Warners contract) in the early 70s. How serious anyone was about getting any work done on it, I don't know.

[runnersdialzero]

Frankly it felt wrong that the Smile doc didn't use the Beach Boys tapes when going through the 66-67 era.

Wasn't that a copyright issue that couldn't really be helped? They didn't use any original tapes, I believe.

[The Heartical Don]

IMHO ... the second movement of BWPS of W/SFC/CIFOTM/SU stands as the best BB/BW recorded moment since .. well ... 1967!

I second that! Grabs me by the throat every time. 'Easy My Child...', it's so heartwarming, lots of consolation there. Superb.

[the captain]

Frankly it felt wrong that the Smile doc didn't use the Beach Boys tapes when going through the 66-67 era.

Wasn't that a copyright issue that couldn't really be helped? They didn't use any original tapes, I believe.

I'd say that issue is pretty obvious: it wasn't a "documentary," but a promotional video. Obviously, an objective documentarian would have gone out of his way to include clips of the original, as well as to get more of the "other side's" views. But this was a Leaf/Wilson team creation intended to promote and accompany the album. Would they really want to pay BRI (and Mike Love)? The whole point of that film is "f*** Mike Love, I did it!" The last thing they would have done would be play original music that many people consider superior to the eventually released product.

[lance]

I seem to remember reading(on the Desper thread...or on surfermoon.com desper stuff) Desper saying that he and Carl worked for some time on the SMiLE stuff, but ultimately abandoned it because they just had no idea how all the parts were supposed to fit together.

[b00ts]

Frankly it felt wrong that the Smile doc didn't use the Beach Boys tapes when going through the 66-67 era.

Wasn't that a copyright issue that couldn't really be helped? They didn't use any original tapes, I believe.

I'd say that issue is pretty obvious: it wasn't a "documentary," but a promotional video. Obviously, an objective documentarian would have gone out of his way to include clips of the original, as well as to get more of the "other side's" views. But this was a Leaf/Wilson team creation intended to promote and accompany the album. Would they really want to pay BRI (and Mike Love)? The whole point of that film is "foda Mike Love, I did it!" The last thing they would have done would be play original music that many people consider superior to the eventually released product.

It's interesting that you say this. I have watched documentaries about Paul McCartney (produced by his company, MPL) that include sections about his time with the Beatles. Of course, they play McCartney's renditions of Beatles songs (usually taken from one of his live albums) in the background.

As for your comment about an objective documentarian to go out of his way to obtain the rights to use the original masters - well, in the case of the Beatles, this objective documentarian would be laughed at and denied, just as every film-maker who has asked for permission to use a Beatles song in their movie has been denied, with very, very few exceptions.

In the case of the Beach Boys, it is probably easier to gain access to the masters for a commercial documentary - but the masters of SMiLe? I doubt an independent documentarian would be given access to anything other than what has been released.

As for Lead/BRIMEL, Why would they bother paying the extra money to use the original SMiLe masters in the documentary? They had just completed a brand-new version of the work, so it would be sort of counterintuitive.

I would love to know if BWPS included any out-takes... it seems like the answer is "no," they just recorded the parts they knew they were going to use... but it would be nifty to hear a new BW version of "He Gives Speeches," would it not?

[Sheriff John Stone]

In the case of the Beach Boys, it is probably easier to gain access to the masters for a commercial documentary - but the masters of SMiLe? I doubt an independent documentarian would be given access to anything other than what has been released.

If you consider SMiLE finished with BWPS, which, after reading your above post, you do, then Beach Boys-recorded SMiLE era songs could've been used, because many of those RELEASED SMiLE era songs are almost identical (arrangement-wise) to the BWPS re-recorded versions. The following SMiLE songs were released years before BWPS:

Our Prayer
Heroes And Villains
Do You Dig Worms
Cabinessence
Wonderful
Surf's Up
Vegetables
Wind Chimes
I Love To Say Dada
Good Vibrations

Why wouldn't Brian be able to gain access to released Beach Boys' songs? How much "extra" money would've it cost to use those above songs? Was money the real factor in the decision NOT to use the original recordings?

[Roger Ryan]

I'm fairly certain it was a rights issue restricting the use of the original SMiLE sessions in BEAUTIFUL DREAMER. As a substitute, instrumental versions of the re-recorded songs where used (minus the vocals, these sound nearly identical to the original backing tracks so I thought that was a good choice). I'm also pretty certain that Leaf asked Mike (and maybe Al) to participate in the documentary, but was turned down.

I'm not trying to claim that BEAUTIFUL DREAMER is as evenhanded as it should be, but there appears to be specific circumstances that caused the film to be presented the way it was. I don't see it as being strictly a whitewash promo for BWPS. That footage of Brian in the depths of depression during rehearsal attempts is not a "positive spin" at all, but it's a striking moment in the film.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm fairly certain it was a rights issue restricting the use of the original SMiLE sessions in BEAUTIFUL DREAMER.

Was it a rights issue, Roger? I ask, not to be a wise guy, but because I don't know. Those SMiLE songs that I listed above were commercially released songs on albums like Smiley Smile, 20/20, and the boxed set. They have been out in the public for 35-40 years. Could Leaf have been blocked from using them, from broadcasting them, even if he pays the mandatory fees?

[grillo]

In the case of the Beach Boys, it is probably easier to gain access to the masters for a commercial documentary - but the masters of SMiLe? I doubt an independent documentarian would be given access to anything other than what has been released.

If you consider SMiLE finished with BWPS, which, after reading your above post, you do, then Beach Boys-recorded SMiLE era songs could've been used, because many of those RELEASED SMiLE era songs are almost identical (arrangement-wise) to the BWPS re-recorded versions. The following SMiLE songs were released years before BWPS:

Our Prayer
Heroes And Villains
Do You Dig Worms
Cabinessence
Wonderful
Surf's Up
Vegetables
Wind Chimes
I Love To Say Dada
Good Vibrations

Why wouldn't Brian be able to gain access to released Beach Boys' songs? How much "extra" money would've it cost to use those above songs? Was money the real factor in the decision NOT to use the original recordings?

Luther got this one right. Playing the original tracks in BD would have shown a very unflattering spotlight on the less-than-magical re-records.

[the captain]

I'm not trying to claim that BEATIFUL DREAMER is as evenhanded as it should be, but there appears to be specific circumstances that caused the film to be presented the way it was. I don't see it as being strictly a whitewash promo for BWPS. That footage of Brian in the depths of depression during rehearsal attempts is not a "positive spin" at all, but it's a striking moment in the film.

I disagree. I absolutely think the footage of a troubled Brian was a positive spin that helped push the narrative of the feature.

There were no doubt copyrights issues to getting the original tapes ... as in, BW would have had to pay for them. And obviously didn't want to. Adding to that, there are the questions as to quality of new v source material, which are absolutely speculative on my part. But come on, if someone with such access to Beach Boys material--he is BRIAN FUCKING WILSON--wanted to finance a truly accurate, complete documentary, it could have been done.

[the captain]

Luther got this one right.

Oh, and if you ask me, I get every one right. 

You did ask me, right?

[b00ts]

To those who posit that putting the original SMiLe tapes next to those of BWPS would make the latter pale in comparison, I strongly disagree. Although I love the original SMiLe tapes and BWPS and recognize the differences between the two, it would be verging on perfunctory for Brian et. al. to produce a new documentary focusing on the making of SMiLe in 2004, all the while playing original SMiLe session tapes in the background.

And if they did use the original SMiLe session tapes, I can hear the bitching on the message boards: "Why couldn't Brian just use the new sessions? He's trying to tell new fans that if they buy SMiLe, they'll be hearing the '60s sessions!" Come on guys, admit it, at least some people would have raised that 'point.' You know it!

I will say that as an original SMiLe fan from way before BWPS was a twinkle in Melinda's eye (ha-ha!) I was slightly put off at first whilst watching Beautiful Dreamer due to the fact that the old tapes were missing. However, it underscored how great a job they did on the 2004 SMiLe, when I heard the backing tracks playing in the background.

As far as the reasoning that the BWPS backing tracks would have looked like sh*t next to the old ones... come on guys... just because you prefer aspects of the old ones (and look, I also prefer some aspects of the 60's sessions) doesn't mean that the backing tracks from BWPS sound that much different. I have a pair of Mike Love-certified Dog Ears ™ and I can certainly tell the difference.. but it's not as pronounced as, say, if BWPS had been recorded during the Landy or Joe Thomas eras.

Luther, there is a difference between skepticism and cynicism... using Brian's meltdown as part of the narrative could be seen as exploitative, I suppose, but at least they didn't try to make it seem like it was a hop, skip, and a jump for Brian to complete SMiLe in 2004. To do that would have been truly cynical on the part of Brian's people. They showed some very, very unflattering scenes with Brian in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, and it makes the story hit home that much more.

Finally... think about the options available to Brian. He could have completed SMiLe (or had the Beach Boys or a group of surrogates finish it) at any time in the intervening 40 years between the original sessions and the BWPS sessions. He could have left it up to others, with a situation similar to the finished recording of "Surf's Up" in the early 70's ensuing. Instead, he re-recorded it from the ground up... those of us who are musicians / recording engineers can perhaps better appreciate the enormity of this task. When I first heard that Brian was going to re-record the whole thing from the ground up, I thought it would be a disaster. Instead, it will never cease to amaze me that Brian Wilson finished SMiLe in the most audacious and potentially the most mentally harrowing way possible, whilst turning out an incredible product.

The path of least resistance would have been putting out a CD-Rom as Don Was suggested in the mid-90s, or putting out a SMiLe sessions boxed set. Instead, the composers returned to the work and finished it. Pretty ace.

Now, to get back to the skeptic side of BW fandom - I have heard rumblings on this here board that certain members of BW's entourage dislike BWPS in its studio form, and only intended it to be a live performance. I understand that this was the case at first (it was not going to be a studio album at first) but I didn't realize that some members of the group were dissatisfied with it.. would anyone care to elucidate, or am I incorrect?

b00ts

P.S. It is not as easy for Brian to get use of the Beach Boys' masters as others are making it out to be - what you guys are thinking of, is Brian's right to cover a song as long as he pays mechanical royalties, and the song has been released/published by its original author (who has first right of refusal, I believe, before others can cover his song freely.) Master tapes are a different story, and in this case, many of them are owned by Capitol or BRI (not sure which) - it is much harder to get access to Master tapes, and as I outlined above, to do so for Beautiful Dreamer would be somewhat perfunctory...

[The Heartical Don]

@bOOts -

that is some post you wrote there! I agree. I think it would have been a bad move to include the original recordings in any way in the 2004 project. One aspect of the whole enterprise for Brian must have been, IMHO, to recreate the past by 'ignoring' the factual past, with all its enormous problems. What he did instead was take the original concept and frame it anew, like as if it were a beautiful painting, together with Van Dyke Parks and the new band. He has the ear of the true artist, and I dare place a bet that the original material would have made him feel pretty uneasy. Perhaps he also felt joy in re-claiming SMiLE as a work of his own, because there was quite some resistance from other band members way back then.

[the captain]

Luther, there is a difference between skepticism and cynicism... using Brian's meltdown as part of the narrative could be seen as exploitative, I suppose, but at least they didn't try to make it seem like it was a hop, skip, and a jump for Brian to complete SMiLe in 2004. To do that would have been truly cynical on the part of Brian's people. They showed some very, very unflattering scenes with Brian in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, and it makes the story hit home that much more.

I didn't call it exploitative. Nothing you said here contradicts me at all.

[Jon Stebbins]

Leaf/Brian/Melinda had complete freedom to use any of the released Smile material in Beautiful Dreamer, and as was stated here there's plenty of that. No need for master tapes unless they want remixes or unreleased snippets. Financial consideration? Sync rights would have to be paid out for the use of said released material in film use, and yes that is expensive...but that money goes half to publisher and half to composer, so Brian would essentially be paying close to half the money to himself. The decision to not use orig. Smile material in that film was purely aesthetic, or political... depending on your view. The new Smile tracks do sound great, quite an accomplishment that Darian, errr Brian, pulled off there. Unless you compare them to the originals and then their lack of organic origins begins to give them that knock-off (but with digital shortcuts) kind of sheen. To me sheen is a bad thing if it is noticeable, and the only way its really noticeable here is if you have the orig. to compare it to. which we do. That said, i think this was a political move...no Beach Boys versions...simply because those were Beach Boys versions and that's a negative i guess if you are trying to create the illusion that Brian didn't need those guys, and that in fact they held him back. That's mostly fiction, but that's the fiction that Beautiful Dreamer is based on...and that Brian's "solo" career, at least in part, depends on as well. Its an entertaining film, but its a very one-sided perspective on a subject that has at least several other perspectives that are just as viable.

[b00ts]

Luther, there is a difference between skepticism and cynicism... using Brian's meltdown as part of the narrative could be seen as exploitative, I suppose, but at least they didn't try to make it seem like it was a hop, skip, and a jump for Brian to complete SMiLe in 2004. To do that would have been truly cynical on the part of Brian's people. They showed some very, very unflattering scenes with Brian in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, and it makes the story hit home that much more.

I didn't call it exploitative. Nothing you said here contradicts me at all.

Damn it, I'll have to figure out some way to contradict you then... give me a little while to figure something out, OK?

[b00ts]

@Jon and the Don -

Both of you stated the truth much more succinctly than I could (if you look at the length of my posts up-thread, you'll see what I mean.) As much as I have enjoyed Beautiful Dreamer, it clearly comes at Brian's story from a certain angle, and as the Lovester says, much of it is certainly revisionist history.

However, Jon, I'll have to disagree re: the relative quality of BWPS versus the original tapes. In some cases, there is a pronounced difference, but in many cases, the BWPS versions sound (to my cloth ears) like much clearer versions of the originals. This has consistently blown my mind ever since BWPS came out.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who abhors the stereotypical "Pro-Tools" sound, especially the use of autotune, both of which were heavily used on BWPS.

But, to play devil's advocate...

If BWPS had been recorded direct to tape, and no sampled harpsichords, et. al. had appeared on the album, I wonder how much different it would have sounded?

Also, how do people here feel about Mark Linnet's work? (Personally, I think he is an excellent engineer/etc.)

It would be fun to do a double-blind randomized test of some of the SMiLe and BWPS material.

b00ts