Beatles listening to part of Smile at Armen Steiner's studio: what happened?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I assumed he is meaning the first 8 tracks. As in the first eight tracks that they more or less completed.

The quote is very specific: "the first eight track". No 's'.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Could VDP, for some strange reason, be confusing The Beatles with Gary Usher? As we all know, according to legend Brian was shocked to find out that Usher has heard some SMiLE tapes. The release of Usher's  'MWFD' only added to Brian's already growing paranoia, as he felt it contained sequences similar to SMiLE. Of course, like most things of the SMiLE era, the story may only be half true, with other people's recollections tossed in. At any rate, if it is true, funny that VDP didn't bitch about that track in relation to people listening to SMiLE music without permission.

[Bicyclerider]

Presumable most of the four track instrumental tapes were transferred to 8 track for overdubbing vocals at columbia, as was done for Good Vibrations.  But the "first 8 track" doesn't make much sense - There were eight track tapes of individual songs for overdubbing, but the only compilation tape I know of is the December comp tape - Dec 18, 1966:

Prayer (10/4/66)
Wonderful (10/6/66)
Cabinessence (10/11/66)
Cabinessence (12/6/66)
Child is Father of the Man (10/12/66) – 2 tracks
Do You Like Worms (10/18/66)

(dates are mixing dates)

There was also a Vegetables tape that had a few different pieces on it, but I doubt they heard that as they were working on Vegetables at the time of Paul's visit - and there was the January Heroes tape with the one day's work on the song all on one tape. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Just had a reply from someone who was at Sound Recorders at the time - don't get excited, it's nothing like a definitive answer, but there was one oblique comment that intrigued. If I get the OK to post it, I will.

[Awesoman]

Van Dyke Parks says in Priore's Smile book that some Beatles went to Armen Steiner's studio at
Yucca and Argyle in L.A., where the Smile tapes were stored, and listened to "Smile, in part, the
first eight-track. We walked into the place and heard that The Beatles had been there. We knew that the nest had been found, and Brian was very sad. He felt violated, raped."

Of course, there was lots of mutual, consensual sharing of each other's works in progress at
the time, and Brian was in a somewhat irrational frame of mind, but this "incident" supposedly added to Brian's sense of paranoia at the time and would, if true, have been a significant breach of professional ethics, both on the part of the studio personnel and members of the Beatles themselves. Imagine how they would have felt if, on a trip by Brian to London, amidst an atmosphere of naive trust, albeit with an element of friendly competitiveness, he had gone to EMI or Abbey Road or wherever and finagled a clandestine, non-consensual listening session of side 1 of Sgt. Pepper?

It has been said "authoritatively" by many on a previous, related thread that this incident never
took place, and without revealing sensitive sources, how do you know that for sure? Van Dyke
finally opened up about his memories to Priore, and he was there and doesn't strike me as someone who would fabricate something out of gratuitous pettiness, even if he was expressing
long-suppressed pain at the dissolution of the album. There was plenty of generous, mutually
shared cross-pollination at the time, and perhaps this is making a mountain out of a molehill,
but if this really happened, it was a very symbolic betrayal of the sanctity of a sensitive, close-to
the-edge artist, which, combined with other sources of paranoia, contributed to his withdrawal
from the project and subsequent decline.

The whole truth may never be known, but why are you so sure that it never actually happened?
 

I am sure for the following reasons:

1 - no-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed.

2 - In the ensuing decades, and especially in the wake of the 2004 London premier of BWPS, Paul never said "oh yeah, heard that in 1966/67". Not once, and of all people, he would.

3 - shortly after the book was published, Van Dyke told a friend of mine that the basis for his claim that The Beatles covertly listened to the Smile tapes was that both albums contained sound effects (in itself a debateable point as the only FX I'm aware of is the fire sounds track on "Fire"... which VDP didn't hear until the late 70s). That was his sole piece of 'evidence'.

VDP also claimed at one point that Dennis Wilson beat up Charles Manson at a party.  I wonder if there was any truth to that or if VDP is just full of ____.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is what an engineer who was at Sound Recorders April 1967 has to say about this much-vexed topic:

"I can say as much that there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to, and I was there."

Hmmm...

[Rocker]

Van Dyke Parks says in Priore's Smile book that some Beatles went to Armen Steiner's studio at
Yucca and Argyle in L.A., where the Smile tapes were stored, and listened to "Smile, in part, the
first eight-track. We walked into the place and heard that The Beatles had been there. We knew that the nest had been found, and Brian was very sad. He felt violated, raped."

Of course, there was lots of mutual, consensual sharing of each other's works in progress at
the time, and Brian was in a somewhat irrational frame of mind, but this "incident" supposedly added to Brian's sense of paranoia at the time and would, if true, have been a significant breach of professional ethics, both on the part of the studio personnel and members of the Beatles themselves. Imagine how they would have felt if, on a trip by Brian to London, amidst an atmosphere of naive trust, albeit with an element of friendly competitiveness, he had gone to EMI or Abbey Road or wherever and finagled a clandestine, non-consensual listening session of side 1 of Sgt. Pepper?

It has been said "authoritatively" by many on a previous, related thread that this incident never
took place, and without revealing sensitive sources, how do you know that for sure? Van Dyke
finally opened up about his memories to Priore, and he was there and doesn't strike me as someone who would fabricate something out of gratuitous pettiness, even if he was expressing
long-suppressed pain at the dissolution of the album. There was plenty of generous, mutually
shared cross-pollination at the time, and perhaps this is making a mountain out of a molehill,
but if this really happened, it was a very symbolic betrayal of the sanctity of a sensitive, close-to
the-edge artist, which, combined with other sources of paranoia, contributed to his withdrawal
from the project and subsequent decline.

The whole truth may never be known, but why are you so sure that it never actually happened?
 

I am sure for the following reasons:

1 - no-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed.

2 - In the ensuing decades, and especially in the wake of the 2004 London premier of BWPS, Paul never said "oh yeah, heard that in 1966/67". Not once, and of all people, he would.

3 - shortly after the book was published, Van Dyke told a friend of mine that the basis for his claim that The Beatles covertly listened to the Smile tapes was that both albums contained sound effects (in itself a debateable point as the only FX I'm aware of is the fire sounds track on "Fire"... which VDP didn't hear until the late 70s). That was his sole piece of 'evidence'.

VDP also claimed at one point that Dennis Wilson beat up Charles Manson at a party.  I wonder if there was any truth to that or if VDP is just full of ____.

He said that in an article, but also said that he wasn't there and that that's just what he had heard.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

This is what an engineer who was at Sound Recorders April 1967 has to say about this much-vexed topic:

"I can say as much that there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to, and I was there."

Hmmm...

Hmmm....I wonder if it is all possible, that someone on the inside made copies of the music and gave it to the Beatles early on. Would that be another way of telling the story? The Beatles heard the music, but not at Armen's studio....

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is what an engineer who was at Sound Recorders April 1967 has to say about this much-vexed topic:

"I can say as much that there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to, and I was there."

Hmmm...

Hmmm....I wonder if it is all possible, that someone on the inside made copies of the music and gave it to the Beatles early on. Would that be another way of telling the story? The Beatles heard the music, but not at Armen's studio....

We'll know next year.

[The Shift]

We'll know next year.

Aaaargh! There ya go again! Titbits and cliffhangers!

[Andrew G. Doe]

We'll know next year.

Aaaargh! There ya go again! Titbits and cliffhangers!

Guy I contacted is writing his autobiography, which will be out next year.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Jeez, sometimes I'm so dumb, I think I should get an award for it. 

It was supposed to have happened at Sound Recorders in April, right ?  Well, care to take a wild guess where the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session that Paul McCartney attended was held ?

Correct - Sound Recorders. 

I'm guessing VDP is totally misremembering an event that did actually happen, but in nothing like the way he recalls. A Beatle did get to hear Smile music... but only because Brian invited him to the studio ! Nothing covert about it. As BB press officer, Taylor doubtless had a hand in Macca's invite, and given that Paul previewed "A Day In The Life" (or "She's Leaving Home", depending on who you're reading), Brian might well have been upset by hearing it.

Discuss. 

[variable2]

Jeez, sometimes I'm so dumb, I think I should get an award for it. 

It was supposed to have happened at Sound Recorders in April, right ?  Well, care to take a wild guess where the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session that Paul McCartney attended was held ?

Correct - Sound Recorders. 

I'm guessing VDP is totally misremembering an event that did actually happen, but in nothing like the way he recalls. A Beatle did get to hear Smile music... but only because Brian invited him to the studio ! Nothing covert about it. As BB press officer, Taylor doubtless had a hand in Macca's invite, and given that Paul previewed "A Day In The Life" (or "She's Leaving Home", depending on who you're reading), Brian might well have been upset by hearing it.

Discuss. 

according to the American Songwriter interview with Brian this year, Paul played She's Leaving Home for he and Marilyn on the piano.
"Didn’t Paul McCartney play you a song from Sgt. Pepper before it was released, asking for your opinion?
Yes. He played me and my wife a song called “She’s Leaving Home” one time in the studio before it came out. I was thrilled to death to hear it. He asked me if we liked it, and I told him we loved it. When I heard it on Sgt. Pepper, I loved it. I thought it was great."
http://www.americansongwriter.com/2009/01/brian-wilson-gods-messenger/

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Jeez, sometimes I'm so dumb, I think I should get an award for it. 

It was supposed to have happened at Sound Recorders in April, right ?  Well, care to take a wild guess where the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session that Paul McCartney attended was held ?

Correct - Sound Recorders. 

I'm guessing VDP is totally misremembering an event that did actually happen, but in nothing like the way he recalls. A Beatle did get to hear Smile music... but only because Brian invited him to the studio ! Nothing covert about it. As BB press officer, Taylor doubtless had a hand in Macca's invite, and given that Paul previewed "A Day In The Life" (or "She's Leaving Home", depending on who you're reading), Brian might well have been upset by hearing it.

Discuss. 

What a letdown. Just when it looked like maybe there was something sneaky going on, too....

[The Shift]

Jeez, sometimes I'm so dumb, I think I should get an award for it. 

It was supposed to have happened at Sound Recorders in April, right ?  Well, care to take a wild guess where the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session that Paul McCartney attended was held ?

Correct - Sound Recorders. 

I'm guessing VDP is totally misremembering an event that did actually happen, but in nothing like the way he recalls. A Beatle did get to hear Smile music... but only because Brian invited him to the studio ! Nothing covert about it. As BB press officer, Taylor doubtless had a hand in Macca's invite, and given that Paul previewed "A Day In The Life" (or "She's Leaving Home", depending on who you're reading), Brian might well have been upset by hearing it.

Discuss. 

according to the American Songwriter interview with Brian this year, Paul played She's Leaving Home for he and Marilyn on the piano.
"Didn’t Paul McCartney play you a song from Sgt. Pepper before it was released, asking for your opinion?
Yes. He played me and my wife a song called “She’s Leaving Home” one time in the studio before it came out. I was thrilled to death to hear it. He asked me if we liked it, and I told him we loved it. When I heard it on Sgt. Pepper, I loved it. I thought it was great."
http://www.americansongwriter.com/2009/01/brian-wilson-gods-messenger/

Does this still rule out the prospect that Brian might well have played acetates to Macca during this visit? There would have been plenty of finished or well-in-progress material on acetate at this time, and we have Smile-era Party audio evidence that Brian was playing Smile acetates for folks bck then. The Humble Harv H&V demo shows that he wasn't shy about revealing his hand, and given his respect for Macca I'd've thought Brian would be eager to impress him.

Just a thought...

[earcandy]

Here's some info on Paul's April visit by someone who was there: Mal Evans.  This is from a 2005 article about the "Mal Evans Diaries":

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article424674.ece

Here's the relevant part of the text:

March 20, 2005
Here, there and everywhere
By Mark Edmonds

The Beatles were his life. He was their mate, driver, skivvy — even co-musician. Mal Evans's diaries, seen here for the first time, reveal the everyday secrets of pop's greatest band
 


Mal's diary describes the recording of the Sgt Pepper album in some detail, referring to the song Fixing a Hole as "where the rain comes in". But there are soon signs that he is beginning to feel a little hard done by.

The rest of 1967 was as busy for Mal as it was for the Beatles: the overblown, complicated Sgt Pepper was time-consuming. As soon as it was completed, Mal flew with Paul to LA to see Jane Asher, who was touring with the Old Vic company. The three took a trip to the Rockies and returned to LA by private jet. Mal took up the story:

"We left Denver in Frank Sinatra's Lear Jet, which he very kindly loaned us. A beautiful job with dark black leather upholstery and, to our delight, a well-stocked bar."

When they arrived, they went to Michelle and John Phillips's [of the Mamas and the Papas] house and Brian Wilson [of the Beach Boys] came round. Mal writes of joining in on a guitar for a rendition of On Top of Old Smokey with Paul and Wilson. Mal, however, was not impressed by Wilson's avant-garde tendencies; at the time he was putting together the Smile album. "Brian then put a damper on the spontaneity of the whole affair by walking in with a tray of water-filled glasses, trying to arrange it into some sort of session." Mal wasn't keen on glass harmonicas — he would have preferred Elvis.

When they returned in April 1967, the Beatles began work on what was to become the ill-fated Magical Mystery Tour project.

I also have a couple of other accounts of that evening: Derek Taylor, John Phillips, etc.  I'll find those and post them.














...and...for a laugh...
THE GREAT SMILE ROBBERY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9_oIHEL-4


 
 

[MBE]

That is great!. Now do one where Mike makes Brian burn the tapes for f--king the formula.

[earcandy]

That is great!. Now do one where Mike makes Brian burn the tapes for f--king the formula.

That WOULD be a great one!

[Dancing Bear]

...and...for a laugh...
THE GREAT SMILE ROBBERY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9_oIHEL-4

 

[Bicyclerider]

OK, Paul was in the studio where Smile tapes were being stored . . . an engineer there appears to know something about how Paul heard Smile tapes, but the story isn't quite what Van Dyke has been saying . . . immediately after the April visit, Paul starts work on Magical Mystery Tour.

so Paul stole Smile ideas for Magical Mystery Tour, not Sgt. Pepper!!!!  Van Dyke just had the wrong album! 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Small problem - VDP clearly states the Beatle(s) heard "the first eight-track"... and in April 1967, Sound Recorders wasn't an 8-track facility. Paul, or whomever, heard... nothing.

[Andrew G. Doe]

. . . an engineer there appears to know something about how Paul heard Smile tapes

He didn't say that at all. What he said was "there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to".

[The Shift]

I'm guessing VDP is totally misremembering an event that did actually happen, but in nothing like the way he recalls.

Hadn't Parks left the SMiLE project the previous month anyway? So was he actually remembering, or reporting hearsay evidence?

[Bicyclerider]

Small problem - VDP clearly states the Beatle(s) heard "the first eight-track"... and in April 1967, Sound Recorders wasn't an 8-track facility. Paul, or whomever, heard... nothing.

The engineer didn't say they heard the eight track at Sound Recorders . . . "there's another way of telling the story" - i.e. place and dates could be different.  I doubt the engineer would bother to say there's another way of telling the story if the story was simply "it didn't happen."  Another way of telling the story could be that Paul heard some four track tapes.

And what IS the "FIRST" eight track?  Does Van Dyke know a specific tape he's referring to?  Maybe Paul heard the SECOND eight track.  I guess we're just going to have to wait until the guy's book comes out!

[Andrew G. Doe]

I love it when people grasp at straws to prop up an idee fixee of theirs that's crumbling at the edges. 

Go back to my post of exactly what the engineer said - no, I'll save you the trouble:

"there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to, and I was there".  This guy worked at Sound Recorders, in fact he was, in essence, serving an apprenticeship there. Ergo, he wouldn't go anywhere else (and that anywhere would have to be Columbia).

Here's another problem - people are taking part of what Van Dyke said as gospel, but when it conflicts with what they're thinking, hey, suddenly he's got it wrong. Can't have your cake and eat it too - he's either reliable... or not. In light of what I and several others have deduced, in this instance - not.  My money is still on his misremembering the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session. If you take what VDP says in Dom's book and stack it up against an established timeline and proven facts, it totally falls apart. He says before they started Pepper, The Beatles covertly heard a Smile 8-track at Sound Recorders and it influenced them. Wrong, wrong and wrong: Sound Recorders didn't have 8-track capability in spring 1967, Pepper started in January anyway and by April the vast majority of the recording for it was done.

So... someone please tell me - why are we still having this arguement ?