Was the Beatles break-up the real turning point for Brian?

[busy doin nothin]

I'm intrigued by the comments about Brian's involvement on Surf's Up.  I haven't read Steve Desper's book, and would very much like to, but to my ears Brian is clearly a lot less audible on Surf's Up than he was on Sunflower.  I don't hear him at all on DGNTW, Long Promised Road, SDT, Feel Flows, or Looking at Tomorrow (5 out of the 10 tracks).  Yes, he is on Feet, but that contribution dates from Landlocked days, doesn't it?  I know some profess to hear his falsetto on Disney Girls, but at most it's for a few lines and the track as a whole sounds like Bruce solo.  Brian apparently did not contribute to the title track except for his already existing vocals from 1966.  That really leaves ADITLOAT and Til I Die (both incredible tracks, to be sure).

Compare that to Sunflower, where he is heard vocally on all seven songs he co-wrote.  More importantly, he sings his traditional falsetto on This Whole World, Add Some Music, Dierdre, All I Wanna Do, Forever, Our Sweet Love, At My Window, and Cool Cool Water.  I would argue that vocally, Brian's falsetto was the sine qua non of his commitment to the Beach Boys -- and it's all over Sunflower but nowhere to be heard on Surf's Up. 

Beyond that, my point was really as much about songwriting as it was about vocals or production.  The fact is that Brian was the principal songwriter behind the Beach Boys through 1970 -- he wrote almost all of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, and a majority of Sunflower.  After 1970, he largely checked out as a songwriter for the Beach Boys -- until the 1976 comeback (which I would note, in addition to all the other personal reasons that Brian may have had, did not occur until the Beach Boys' revival as a megagroup on the US charts, as a "worthy" competitor to the Beatles again).

busy doin nothin, for what it's worth, I've thought about your theory several times. And I think it has some merit; how much I don't know. I've read interviews where Brian praised "Let It Be", so he was still, at least, appreciating The Beatles.

Competition was so much of the young Brian Wilson's professional life; that we know. And what group was challenging him more than The Beatles? Actually, I've rarely heard Brian even praise other groups from that era. So, yeah, right up until The Beatles' demise he was probably "feeling it", again I don't what degree.

Another thing that might support your theory is Brian's beloved Phil Spector. Right around that Beatles' breakup, Spector was back on the scene, producing guess who? The solo Beatles (not to mention Let It Be). I don't know who might've been motivating Brian more in 1970, The Beatles, or Spector, but, regardless, Brian's interest still waned. I mean, even Spector having hits didn't snap Brian out of it. So, maybe it was The Beatles at that time, even more than Spector, which would be surprising.

Sheriff -- Some very interesting points.  I hadn't considered the Spector angle before, but I would postulate this about Spector -- Brian saw Spector more as a producing rival than as a songwriting rival, whereas he saw the Beatles (Lennon and McCartney) as songwriting rivals.  Clearly Brian did scale back on his production ambitions after SMiLE (although they were revived somewhat with Sunflower, it would appear).  My point was more that he did not give up on competing as a pop songwriter until the Beatles broke up.  (Notably the Beatles themselves, and pop music in general, moved away from elaborate production after 1967, influenced at least in some small part by the direction Brian took with Smiley Smile and Wild Honey.)

Ok maybe I am ignorent but what are Hoffman polls or threads.

I don't know what they are either.

Swear to God, if there was a Hoffman poll entitled who has the bigger thumbs, the Beach Boys or the Beatles, the board would be flooded with people making sure the Beatles didn't come second.   

As I hope my earlier posts made clear, I respect and like the Beatles, but for me they cannot even hold a candle to Brian and the Beach Boys.  I once said I would not trade "Your Summer Dream" for everything the Beatles ever recorded.  I stand by that statement and could substitute several dozen other BB songs for "Your Summer Dream" and still mean it.

[Dancing Bear]

Re: Surf's Up.

I'd never really thought that much about it before, but imagine that...(even without the drugs and mental situation etc...) this album Smile, that BW ahd been worked passionately on, was canned because of grief from the group.

We've been arguing about that for years and at the very least, it's debatable.

Then Brian cedes a degree of control to the group and their career goes downhill fast (in their home country).

Their career went downhill because no one in the group, including Brian, was capable of writing top ten hit singles between '67 and... oh, 2009.   

4 years later, the same guys are begging for one of the most heartfelt songs on the album they hated. They even name the album after it.

As far as I know, the individuals pushing for the reworking of 'Surf's Up' were, in no particular order:

JACK RIELEY (Manager)
VAN DYKE PARKS (Warner A&R)
CARL WILSON (Band member)

We don't know if Brian in '71 thought that the band 'hated Smile'. But he surely knew who was begging for one of his most heartfelt songs, to give an extra spark to next album. It wasn't Dennis, Mike, Al or Bruce.

That would drive anyone nuts, even just for the "I Told You So" factor.

Yeah, the 'Surf's Up' single bombed and he hasn't socialized a lot with Rieley or Parks in the last three decades and a half. Those bastards.

Brian really withdrew from the band after that, turning to his wife's music, and then after 1973, he retreated from life.

I guess he just was having a lazy time with cocaine and the sorts. Let's give the guy a break, he had been working a lot in the last ten years.

[jmc]

I would argue that vocally, Brian's falsetto was the sine qua non of his commitment to the Beach Boys -- and it's all over Sunflower but nowhere to be heard on Surf's Up. 

This is an interesting idea that I had not thought of before.  The three albums that followed Sunflower (Surf's Up, So Tough, and Holland), where Brian's falsetto is obviously lacking, are the albums where the Beach Boys were viewed as returning to "hip"; not to mention these albums sold better (I think) than Sunflower (Brian's last great effort as semi-leader).  While a lot of this is undoubtedly due to their improved live shows, they still gravitated towards a more hip sound.  Maybe Brian realized that his signature sound (falsetto voice) wasn't needed or wanted by the public anymore, he didn't perform live, Desper was gone, and others were producing and writing....so f**k it and just give up.   Add coke indulgence and paranoia, topped with Murry's passing, excessive smoking to sound like Randy Newman (i.e. hip and masculine) and it was all over.....well the old Brian anyhow. + =

[Exapno Mapcase]

"Swear to God, if there was a Hoffman poll entitled who has the bigger thumbs, the Beach Boys or the Beatles, the board would be flooded with people making sure the Beatles didn't come second.    "

Yeah, but then you'd canned by a 'Gort', which, for those who don't know, is an adult huiman being who has the power to suck and blow at the same time!

[adamghost]

Some really good thoughts here and new information to me.  I love when some of the history comes in for closer analysis.

I think for Brian it was a drip-drip-drip effect.  Slowly your interest and will to do it fades with each bit of negative reinforcement.  SMiLE was the biggest one, but there was Murray's sale of Sea of Tunes in '69, SUNFLOWER's failure in '70, and Murray's death in '73.  Plus the escalating drug use.  All one big feedback loop.

Something to keep in mind about Brian's involvement in SURF'S UP rather than SUNFLOWER is it is a lot less trouble to come in and sing on a song or maybe play a little keyboards than it is to write and/or produce something.  Brian may well have pulled back from the hard work but still come in to lend a hand on what was going on.  He lived there, after all, and he may not have wanted to fully cut ties with the group at that point (or they may have cajoled him into contributing, or a little of both).  So you can see a tapering off:  writing, singing, producing on SUNFLOWER, less work-intensive contributions to the bulk of SURF'S UP (and I might add he is present vocally on "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again," too), and then just cameo appearances on the next two albums.

[busy doin nothin]

Something to keep in mind about Brian's involvement in SURF'S UP rather than SUNFLOWER is it is a lot less trouble to come in and sing on a song or maybe play a little keyboards than it is to write and/or produce something.  Brian may well have pulled back from the hard work but still come in to lend a hand on what was going on.  He lived there, after all, and he may not have wanted to fully cut ties with the group at that point (or they may have cajoled him into contributing, or a little of both).  So you can see a tapering off:  writing, singing, producing on SUNFLOWER, less work-intensive contributions to the bulk of SURF'S UP (and I might add he is present vocally on "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again," too), and then just cameo appearances on the next two albums.

Excellent point.  And I also think it's important to note that Brian's contribution in production and arranging went hand in hand with songwriting.  If he didn't write the song, he generally didn't provide the arrangement or produce it (eg, How She Boogalooed It, Bruce's songs).  If he did write, he got deeply involved in the arrangement and production (ADITLOAT, Til I Die).  So a decline in songwriting corresponds to a decline in overall commitment and involvement.

[Cam Mott]

I think SMiLE had little to nothing to do with Brian's retreat, as others note, Brian churned on. I suppose he retreated, like many composer/bands when he realized his season of most popularity with the record buying public was in the past.

[MBE]

Re: Surf's Up.

I'd never really thought that much about it before, but imagine that...(even without the drugs and mental situation etc...) this album Smile, that BW ahd been worked passionately on, was canned because of grief from the group.

Then Brian cedes a degree of control to the group and their career goes downhill fast (in their home country). 4 years later, the same guys are begging for one of the most heartfelt songs on the album they hated. They even name the album after it.

That would drive anyone nuts, even just for the "I Told You So" factor.

Brian really withdrew from the band after that, turning to his wife's music, and then after 1973, he retreated from life.

Well one point I should make is that Brian was in full charge in 1967 and I honestly don't think the other guys had the power to cancel Smile. ALl the cognent evidence I have heard points to the final decsion as Brian's. In my book I will reveal more about why Brian freaked about using Surf's Up as opposed to say Cabinessence. I will say it was down to the song more then Smile itself.

[MBE]

I'm intrigued by the comments about Brian's involvement on Surf's Up.  I haven't read Steve Desper's book, and would very much like to, but to my ears Brian is clearly a lot less audible on Surf's Up than he was on Sunflower.  I don't hear him at all on DGNTW, Long Promised Road, SDT, Feel Flows, or Looking at Tomorrow (5 out of the 10 tracks).  Yes, he is on Feet, but that contribution dates from Landlocked days, doesn't it?  I know some profess to hear his falsetto on Disney Girls, but at most it's for a few lines and the track as a whole sounds like Bruce solo.  Brian apparently did not contribute to the title track except for his already existing vocals from 1966.  That really leaves ADITLOAT and Til I Die (both incredible tracks, to be sure).

 Brian's falsetto was the sine qua non of his commitment to the Beach Boys -- and it's all over Sunflower but nowhere to be heard on Surf's Up. 

Beyond that, my point was really as much about songwriting as it was about vocals or production.  The fact is that Brian was the principal songwriter behind the Beach Boys through 1970 -- he wrote almost all of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, and a majority of Sunflower.  After 1970, he largely checked out as a songwriter for the Beach Boys

'Don't Go Near The Water" Brian is heard doing the high part at the end. "Long Promised Road" Brian does the "down down down" and the "bah bah bah bah" vocals. Not falsetto in his normal tone. "Feel Flows" Brian does the "White Puffs" lines fairly high in his register. "Disney Girls" is Brian on the high part and there is a home movie floating around from 1990 where he and Bruce discuss it and Brian disastrously attempts it. I think the big difference on SU is that unlike Sunflower Brian did little of the vocal arranging. He is there but it sounds different because Carl, Al, and Bruce didn't go for the Brian Wilson sound.

[MBE]

Some really good thoughts here and new information to me.  I love when some of the history comes in for closer analysis.

I think for Brian it was a drip-drip-drip effect.  Slowly your interest and will to do it fades with each bit of negative reinforcement.  SMiLE was the biggest one, but there was Murray's sale of Sea of Tunes in '69, SUNFLOWER's failure in '70, and Murray's death in '73.  Plus the escalating drug use.  All one big feedback loop.

Something to keep in mind about Brian's involvement in SURF'S UP rather than SUNFLOWER is it is a lot less trouble to come in and sing on a song or maybe play a little keyboards than it is to write and/or produce something.  Brian may well have pulled back from the hard work but still come in to lend a hand on what was going on.  He lived there, after all, and he may not have wanted to fully cut ties with the group at that point (or they may have cajoled him into contributing, or a little of both).  So you can see a tapering off:  writing, singing, producing on SUNFLOWER, less work-intensive contributions to the bulk of SURF'S UP (and I might add he is present vocally on "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again," too), and then just cameo appearances on the next two albums.

I think you have a great handle on the situation.

[runnersdialzero]

Well one point I should make is that Brian was in full charge in 1967 and I honestly don't think the other guys had the power to cancel Smile. ALl the cognent evidence I have heard points to the final decsion as Brian's. In my book I will reveal more about why Brian freaked about using Surf's Up as opposed to say Cabinessence. I will say it was down to the song more then Smile itself.

Yes, it was ultimately Brian's decision, but that decision came because his already fragile state of mind had all the pressure of various people coming down on him over the music, Van Dyke Parks leaving the project, etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Re: Surf's Up.

I'd never really thought that much about it before, but imagine that...(even without the drugs and mental situation etc...) this album Smile, that BW ahd been worked passionately on, was canned because of grief from the group.

Then Brian cedes a degree of control to the group and their career goes downhill fast (in their home country). 4 years later, the same guys are begging for one of the most heartfelt songs on the album they hated. They even name the album after it.

That would drive anyone nuts, even just for the "I Told You So" factor.

Brian really withdrew from the band after that, turning to his wife's music, and then after 1973, he retreated from life.

I don't think that Brian's withdrawl following Sunflower caused the group to go downhill. When Carl became the producer and Reiley the manager, along with the stage presenence and sound of Ricky and Blondie, the BBs had become as 'hip' (not comercial) as they had ever been since GV. Only to be ruined by the commercial success of ES.

I think that a change in leadership was the best thing for the BBs at that time. Up until SU, the BBs were still waiting for Brian to call the shots. Finally Carl stepped up, because he realised that Brian was no longer willing. Dennis might have been better then Carl for the job, but I'm not so sure that was a job that Dennis wanted, nor Mike and co.

[phirnis]

I think that a change in leadership was the best thing for the BBs at that time.

While I do agree that someone evenetually had to step up in order to take charge of the group, I feel that Bruce Johnston was right when he stated that "the whole magic pulled back" as soon as Brian more or less left the group after Sunflower and his few but stunning contributions to the Surf's Up album. The way Carl envisioned The Beach Boys was admirable in its very own right and I do appreciate the whole of Holland in particular, but still I'd probably much rather listen to Brian's quirky 15 Big Ones remake of Chapel Of Love than Leaving This Town if I really had to choose.

[busy doin nothin]

I'd probably much rather listen to Brian's quirky 15 Big Ones remake of Chapel Of Love than Leaving This Town if I really had to choose.

Wow, I really disagree with that.  Brian was the greatest, no doubt, but I really love Leaving This Town and I think the two Ricky/Blondie albums are incredible (in a different way from the BBs earlier work).  15BO is the one Beach Boys album prior to Dennis's death that I genuinely don't like.  It has two great moments, in my opinion -- It's OK and Had to Phone Ya.  Otherwise, yikes.  As a Beach Boys fanatic, I am truly ashamed of Rock and Roll Music.  It's an absolute embarrassment.  "Leaving This Town," I am very proud of (and find quite moving).

[Ian]

If you want to talk about inner band conflicts that affected Bri- the BBs clearly had a falling out with him in the fall of 1970 when they went, apparently behind his back, and asked Terry Jacks to produce "Seasons in the Sun".  The first recording session for this-with Brian present- was apparently quite an unpleasant experience.  Brian was by most accounts-pretty upset.  There is no doubt-it showed him-rightly or wrongly-that the band had lost confidence in him as a producer and were eager to try working with someone else who might help them gain commercial success-I think those sessions were pretty important....in  causing the situation to deteriorate. Those as usual with the BBs, I wouldn't be surprised if they never reall talked about it after that or worked to resolve the tension...Seems to me that the band always suffered from lack of communication

[MBE]

I guess the Seasons in the Sun session may have something to do with it, I never thought about that before.  He did do the Whisky gig and My Solution right after it, but it along with the other incidents mentioned probably played a role.

[TdHabib]

If you want to talk about inner band conflicts that affected Bri- the BBs clearly had a falling out with him in the fall of 1970 when they went, apparently behind his back, and asked Terry Jacks to produce "Seasons in the Sun".  The first recording session for this-with Brian present- was apparently quite an unpleasant experience.  Brian was by most accounts-pretty upset.  There is no doubt-it showed him-rightly or wrongly-that the band had lost confidence in him as a producer and were eager to try working with someone else who might help them gain commercial success-I think those sessions were pretty important....in  causing the situation to deteriorate. Those as usual with the BBs, I wouldn't be surprised if they never reall talked about it after that or worked to resolve the tension...Seems to me that the band always suffered from lack of communication

I'll never forget an interview with Jacks where he said the BB session was a mess--Mike Love was on a watermelon fast and Brian kept wanting to get ahold of the session tapes...

[MBE]

That's funny I think Mike was more troubled then Brian in 1970. I mean it Brian had some major episodes later, but I don't think he had anything as severe as what Mike went through at that point.

[Ganz Allein]

Well one point I should make is that Brian was in full charge in 1967 and I honestly don't think the other guys had the power to cancel Smile. ALl the cognent evidence I have heard points to the final decsion as Brian's. In my book I will reveal more about why Brian freaked about using Surf's Up as opposed to say Cabinessence. I will say it was down to the song more then Smile itself.

MBE - when is your book coming out?  I'm looking forward to it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That's funny I think Mike was more troubled then Brian in 1970. I mean it Brian had some major episodes later, but I don't think he had anything as severe as what Mike went through at that point.

What was the duration of Mike's problems in 1970? Days, weeks, longer?

[sofonanm]

That's funny I think Mike was more troubled then Brian in 1970. I mean it Brian had some major episodes later, but I don't think he had anything as severe as what Mike went through at that point.

What was the duration of Mike's problems in 1970? Days, weeks, longer?

Nevermind that, what were the problems? And has he spoke about it? Was it related to drugs? Or his TM practice? Existential crisis or a loony episode? I must know dammit.

[Aegir]

I thought it was the failure of Ol' Man River that made Brian stop caring.

[MBE]

Well one point I should make is that Brian was in full charge in 1967 and I honestly don't think the other guys had the power to cancel Smile. ALl the cognent evidence I have heard points to the final decsion as Brian's. In my book I will reveal more about why Brian freaked about using Surf's Up as opposed to say Cabinessence. I will say it was down to the song more then Smile itself.

MBE - when is your book coming out?  I'm looking forward to it.

Well I hope to have a final manuscript done this year. Perhaps next spring or summer would be the best time, depends on how long the printing process takes etc.