Smile Playing Order: a detail I don't hear discussed much (67' vinyl LP length)

[The Song Of The Grange]

One of my biggest problems with the 2004 Smile is that it literally couldn't fit on one disc of vinyl.  Plus the 3 movement structure wouldn't have worked to well in the side A/side B format. 2004 release of Smile is 46.8 minutes—about 2 minutes too long for an LP in 1967.  From this we can conclude that the 2004 version couldn’t have been released in this order and content in 1967.  Thus another of my nagging obsessions: what do I cut from the 2004 version and what do a rearrange to get as close as I can to Smile Junkie Nirvana--the experience of hearing something very close the real deal.  It seems easy enough to trim 2 minutes right?  But what about the great 2004 sequencing?  Would you just split the Childhood section in half and maybe lead off side two with Surf's Up (what "God Only Knows" did for Pet Sounds"?  I guess I could live with that.  But then there is the matter of the 1960's era evidence that Surf's Up was going to be the closing track.  2004 release is no help because the vinyl version was issued as a double LP.  There is no evidence that a 67' Smile was planned as such--though it would have been a great idea if I had a time machine and also ruled the world.

Here is a little back ground data:

Standard LP length was 45 minutes total, 22.5 minutes per side.

Pet Sounds was 35:58 in length.  Both sides were around 18 minutes.

Sgt. Pepper was 39:42 in length.  Roughly 20 minutes per side.

Revolver was 35:01 or 17.5 minutes per side.

Pink Floyd Pipers at the Gates of Dawn was 41:52 in length. About 21 minutes a side.

Hendrix Axis:Bold as Love was 38:49.

Rolling Stones Satanic Majesties Request was 44:06, one of the longer of the era I could find.

PS:  Sorry to be that guy who joins a message board and then starts posting all the time.  I just have no one to talk to about these things and want to tap into the wisdom of the crowd.

[Jason]

47 minutes could have fit on the LP. I'm reminded of a certain trumpeter who put out this little album in 1959 that revolutionized jazz. IIRC that album was around 46 minutes long. Certainly by 1967-68 the standards changed. In '68 the first disc of the White Album was around 48 minutes long.

[mrski]

Maybe any tracks, (which otherwise are present on BWPS), which would not fit onto the '67 album due to space limitations on the vinyl, would have been issued as single B-sides?

H&V b/w H&V Part 2 ?

Vega-tables b/w ? ?

[John]

Aftermath by the Stones was about 53 minutes long.

A lot of the Bob Dylan albums from 1963-1965 were 50 minute LPs.

[runnersdialzero]

So Brian, when compiling Smile in 2004, should have restricted himself based on how formats were 40 years earlier, key word there being "restricted"?

:\

[DAMAGED]

One of my biggest problems with the 2004 Smile is that it literally couldn't fit on one disc of vinyl.  Plus the 3 movement structure wouldn't have worked to well in the side A/side B format. 2004 release of Smile is 46.8 minutes—about 2 minutes too long for an LP in 1967.  From this we can conclude that the 2004 version couldn’t have been released in this order and content in 1967.  Thus another of my nagging obsessions: what do I cut from the 2004 version and what do a rearrange to get as close as I can to Smile Junkie Nirvana--the experience of hearing something very close the real deal.  It seems easy enough to trim 2 minutes right?  But what about the great 2004 sequencing?  Would you just split the Childhood section in half and maybe lead off side two with Surf's Up (what "God Only Knows" did for Pet Sounds"?  I guess I could live with that.  But then there is the matter of the 1960's era evidence that Surf's Up was going to be the closing track.  2004 release is no help because the vinyl version was issued as a double LP.  There is no evidence that a 67' Smile was planned as such--though it would have been a great idea if I had a time machine and also ruled the world.

Here is a little back ground data:

Standard LP length was 45 minutes total, 22.5 minutes per side.

Pet Sounds was 35:58 in length.  Both sides were around 18 minutes.

Sgt. Pepper was 39:42 in length.  Roughly 20 minutes per side.

Revolver was 35:01 or 17.5 minutes per side.

Pink Floyd Pipers at the Gates of Dawn was 41:52 in length. About 21 minutes a side.

Hendrix Axis:Bold as Love was 38:49.

Rolling Stones Satanic Majesties Request was 44:06, one of the longer of the era I could find.

PS:  Sorry to be that guy who joins a message board and then starts posting all the time.  I just have no one to talk to about these things and want to tap into the wisdom of the crowd.

I think your touching on the reason why SMiLE is so great, it was never finished (sad as that is).
The 2004 version is likely to be far different in content & track sequence to what a 1967 release would of ever been.

With the wonders of the internet we can access many of the bootlegs of this material and marvel at was nearly was. We can discuss on this forum the many theories on what it could of been & how Brian was going to put it together. We can also compile our own edits of the material, SMiLE is interactive & everchanging - Thats why we're all obsessed, usually a record is what it is and thats it, but not SMiLE - It's much more.

[Bill Tobelman]

This is just a guess, but if "Surf's Up" led off side two of a '67 LP then there would be no need for that little instrumental connector thing following "Child is Father."

[c-man]

That's why Brian couldn't finish it in '67...there was too much to cram on an LP (without worrying about fidelity loss) and then have to split into two sides. 

There you go...no need to ever again debate the reason for its scrapping. 

[Bicyclerider]

If you stick to the December back cover slick track list, the album would easily fit on two sides of an LP.  AS to what order, Smiley gives some clues - singles usually start or end a side, as they did on Pet Sounds - and Vosse remembers that Surf's Up was to end the LP.

[Black Tiger]

Instrumental tracks were usually placed near the end of a side, often (but not always) the second-to-last track (of course Smiley throws pattern this out, but it's otherwise present on Surfer Girl, PS, Friends, etc), so I would pencil in the Elements as the second-to-last track on side 2.
 
People usually lump the rest together by "themes" (Americana/childhood/elemental), but this seems fishy to me. The closest Brian did to doing this was the BB Christmas Album with the "teen"/Dick Reynolds' sides, and on Today! with the rocker/ballad sides, but even these aren't exact splits.
Meanwhile on Smiley Brian stuck "elemental" tracks Vegetables and Fall Breaks together on side 1 (with the "Americana" of H&V and, perhaps, Little Pad), but then put Wind Chimes on the side 2 with Wonderful, which itself would thematically "fit" better on side 1 with She's Goin' Bald!

fill in the blanks...

(0. Prayer)
1. H&V
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

7. Good Vibes
8.
9.
10.
11. Elements?
12. Surf's Up

Worms
Wind Chimes
VegaTables
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Great Shape
Child
OMP

[DAMAGED]

I think Good Vibrations would only be included at the insistance of Capitol. As was know, it doesn't fit as it's a Pet Sound track so I don't think Brian would of included it. Though it is on the Dec 66 track list, isn't it?? But did Brian write the list or Carl.......

Wonderful & Vega-Tables were both also considered as singles, so either one of those tracks could of opened side 2.

[pixletwin]

I don't buy into the belief that GV was a Pet Sounds track. The main motif from Song for Children (and its 67 counterpart... it escapes me what it was called) was a direct reference to Good Vibrations (the na-na-na-na-na na-na-na's at the end).

[Black Tiger]

that piece is called "Look"

Good Vibrations fits perfectly on Smile, IMO. It's the exact same "modular" style recording as the rest of the album. Secondly, I believe the notion that Capital wanted GV on Smile against Brian's wishes has been debunked. It was Smiley Smile that shouldn't have had GV on it. Which makes a lot more sense considering it sticks out like a sore thumb on that album.

[Chris Brown]

that piece is called "Look"

Good Vibrations fits perfectly on Smile, IMO. It's the exact same "modular" style recording as the rest of the album. Secondly, I believe the notion that Capital wanted GV on Smile against Brian's wishes has been debunked. It was Smiley Smile that shouldn't have had GV on it. Which makes a lot more sense considering it sticks out like a sore thumb on that album.

Yeah GV on Smiley really ruins the flow for me...I always skip it when I listen to that album.

It would have certainly fit on Smile, although I highly doubt it would have ended it.  Surf's Up always made a lot more sense to me as the Smile closer, although that leads you into the problem of where to put GV if not at the end.  Industry practice at the time would dictate that it began one of the sides, but that may not have jived with Brian's intended sequencing. 

[Bill Tobelman]

Elvis Costello's Get Happy vinyl album times in at 48 minutes.

[Bicyclerider]

Instrumental tracks were usually placed near the end of a side, often (but not always) the second-to-last track (of course Smiley throws pattern this out, but it's otherwise present on Surfer Girl, PS, Friends, etc), so I would pencil in the Elements as the second-to-last track on side 2.
 
People usually lump the rest together by "themes" (Americana/childhood/elemental), but this seems fishy to me. The closest Brian did to doing this was the BB Christmas Album with the "teen"/Dick Reynolds' sides, and on Today! with the rocker/ballad sides, but even these aren't exact splits.
Meanwhile on Smiley Brian stuck "elemental" tracks Vegetables and Fall Breaks together on side 1 (with the "Americana" of H&V and, perhaps, Little Pad), but then put Wind Chimes on the side 2 with Wonderful, which itself would thematically "fit" better on side 1 with She's Goin' Bald!

fill in the blanks...

(0. Prayer)
1. H&V
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

7. Good Vibes
8.
9.
10.
11. Elements?
12. Surf's Up

Worms
Wind Chimes
VegaTables
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Great Shape
Child
OMP

Vegetables or Wonderful should end side one, since those were to be a single Bside and Aside respectively.  Then I go with themes - but violate my own rule by putting Worms first, because it's so cool sounding after Prayer, and really introduces the Americana epic sweep of the album.

[The Song Of The Grange]

As usual, great insight from the folks on this site.  I stand corrected on the limits of LP lengths.  I was going with info from a Wikipedia article--not always the full story.  I consider it wonderful news that the 2004 time of 46.8 would have fit.  I am going for a historical re-creation on my next Smile mix.  I think that taking the two sides of the LP into account might be the key to a more historically realistic version. 

I agree with the consensus that Good Vibrations fits with the Smile project.  It's sessions overlapped with early Smile sessions and as someone here pointed out, the same modular recording style was used.  Look/I Ran/Song For Children really drives the point home.

I have heard the idea put forth that The Elements may have been spread thematically throughout the 2 sides of the LP.  But this really should be it's own post topic.

I too have considered looking to Pet Sounds as a guide for track order on Smile.  I think this is a better source than Smiley Smile, which is a project that was made under far different circumstances.  I have wondered: is Good Vibrations the Sloop John B of Smile?  Both have a certain amount of detachment from their respective projects.  I also find the idea of Vega-Tables of Wonderful closing side one.  That is in keeping with some of my theories.

The track order evidence circa 67' is pretty limited.  2004 Smile is a gold mine of info, but I would argue should be taken with a grain of salt.  We know "Prayer" was meant, at least at the time of its tracking, to kick off the album.  A few people close to the project have stated that Surf's Up would close (Vosse mentions the idea of ending with what I think he called a "Prayer thing," which sounds like a possible echo of the opening of side one.  Carol Kaye and Wilson himself noted that I Wanna Be Around was meant to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow.  Other than that, what do we have to go on?  Only by inference can we put Heroes and Villains as the first real song one side one.

Thanks again for all the helpful input.

[Mahalo]

1 H&V
2 IITGS
3 Vegetables
4 Worms
5 Wind Chimes
6 Cabinessence

1 GV
2 OMP
3Wonderful
4 Elements
5 Child
6 Surf's Up

?

[variable2]

As usual, great insight from the folks on this site.  I stand corrected on the limits of LP lengths.  I was going with info from a Wikipedia article--not always the full story.  I consider it wonderful news that the 2004 time of 46.8 would have fit.  I am going for a historical re-creation on my next Smile mix.  I think that taking the two sides of the LP into account might be the key to a more historically realistic version. 

I agree with the consensus that Good Vibrations fits with the Smile project.  It's sessions overlapped with early Smile sessions and as someone here pointed out, the same modular recording style was used.  Look/I Ran/Song For Children really drives the point home.

I have heard the idea put forth that The Elements may have been spread thematically throughout the 2 sides of the LP.  But this really should be it's own post topic.

I too have considered looking to Pet Sounds as a guide for track order on Smile.  I think this is a better source than Smiley Smile, which is a project that was made under far different circumstances.  I have wondered: is Good Vibrations the Sloop John B of Smile?  Both have a certain amount of detachment from their respective projects.  I also find the idea of Vega-Tables of Wonderful closing side one.  That is in keeping with some of my theories.

The track order evidence circa 67' is pretty limited.  2004 Smile is a gold mine of info, but I would argue should be taken with a grain of salt.  We know "Prayer" was meant, at least at the time of its tracking, to kick off the album.  A few people close to the project have stated that Surf's Up would close (Vosse mentions the idea of ending with what I think he called a "Prayer thing," which sounds like a possible echo of the opening of side one.  Carol Kaye and Wilson himself noted that I Wanna Be Around was meant to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow.  Other than that, what do we have to go on?  Only by inference can we put Heroes and Villains as the first real song one side one.

Thanks again for all the helpful input.

You do realize that there is no answer to your eternal questioning..  there is no definitive 1967 version of smile that is going to be unearthed.  brian changed is mind a thousand times in the course of those months in 66-67, so there is no set way everything was supposed to be.. it wasn't finished!

[DAMAGED]

Ok, you've swayed my thoughts about GV. So it'd be first up on side 2 going by the usual format.

[Rocky]

I don't buy into the belief that GV was a Pet Sounds track.

?...even though it was recorded during the Pet Sounds sessions?

[smile-holland]

We know "Prayer" was meant, at least at the time of its tracking, to kick off the album.  A few people close to the project have stated that Surf's Up would close (Vosse mentions the idea of ending with what I think he called a "Prayer thing," which sounds like a possible echo of the opening of side one. 

You know, thinking of this...
I just thought about that ending with the Child Is Father Of The Man bit as a coda on the 1971 version of Surf's Up. If you listen to the backgroundvocals on that one, with a little bit fantasy one can inerpretate that as a reprise of the opening bars of the Our Prayer melody.

Just a thought, probably very wrong.

[Chris Brown]

1 H&V
2 IITGS
3 Vegetables
4 Worms
5 Wind Chimes
6 Cabinessence

1 GV
2 OMP
3Wonderful
4 Elements
5 Child
6 Surf's Up

?

I really like this playing order...sounds like it would flow very well.

[Mahalo]

Thank You. I tried to put a little thought in it.

[BiG GRiN]

According to many sources (books, web, interviews...), GV never intended to be part of SMiLE; it was a link between Pet Sounds and SMiLE, it was Brian's Rhapsody in blue; and once again according to many informations, Capitol put the pressure to have GV on SMiLE, because of the lack of hits in the project, as they did with 'Sloop John B' on Pet Sounds. And I never included GV in my SMiLE mixes, doens't make sense to me.