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Author Topic: Mike Love and SMiLE (no, not what you think)  (Read 21632 times)
Aegir
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« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2009, 06:42:01 PM »

1966 wasn't as progressive as you're all making it seem. The big Beatles hits from 1966 were We Can Work It Out and Yellow Submarine. Barbara Ann hit #2 in 1966.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2009, 06:46:39 PM »

Mike was at the time (by sunflower I feel he changed) a money obsessed tool, he had no musical vision, all he saw was chicks, fame and money. When he heard SMiLE all he heard was change, something that doesn't sound like regular Beach Boys, something not 'commercial'....

All he saw was chicks, fame, and money. You got a problem with that? Grin

You're probably right, but, wasn't Dennis, and maybe another Beach Boy or two? And a couple thousand other rock and rollers! Seriously, change is a difficult thing, ESPECIALLY when you're experiencing success. I wouldn't have wanted to go from "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations" to "Do You Like Worms". How about you?

But that's the thing, if the BB released "I Get Around" or "Help Me Rhonda" in 66 they would never of got to number 1, The BB would of been laughed at. The culture was ready for "Do You Like Worms" and "Good Vibrations".

Laughed at? Do you mean like they were laughed at with songs like "Darlin", "Do It Again", and "I Can Hear Music"?

Even though Brian thought/said that SMiLE was ahead of its time, and the public wasn't ready for it, I'll agree with you, SOME of the culture was ready for a "Do You Like Worms". But, sometime, take a look at the charts in late 1966 and 1967. There was still a lot of mainstream "pop" music at the top of the charts. The whole music culture hadn't suddenly gone psychedelic.

Look, you and I (and others) basically agree on the premise that Mike wasn't really to blame for the SMiLE debacle. There are some points we might disagree with on the way there, however. I don't think Mike was ready to change - yet - in late 1966. I try to see his point of view, I mean, it wasn't totally ignorant. You don't think another Spectorian masterpiece from Brian a la Summer Days & Summer Nights and/or Pet Sounds wouldn't have sold in 1967?
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John
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« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2009, 06:52:20 PM »

Laughed at? Do you mean like they were laughed at with songs like "Darlin", "Do It Again", and "I Can Hear Music"?

The wheel had turned or was about to turn by that point,, back to relative simplicity - John Wesley Harding, Lady Madonna, Jumpin' Jack Flash by the time these records were released.
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« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2009, 07:04:58 PM »

Laughed at? Do you mean like they were laughed at with songs like "Darlin", "Do It Again", and "I Can Hear Music"?

The wheel had turned or was about to turn by that point,, back to relative simplicity - John Wesley Harding, Lady Madonna, Jumpin' Jack Flash by the time these records were released.

I don't agree. Yes, you named a few exceptions by a few artists. But, you can't look at the music that was coming out of 1967 and 1968 and call it "simplistic". That was one of the most complex and creative periods in the history of rock & roll.

That being said, if Brian Wilson would've continued turning out masterpieces like the stuff he was doing in 1965 and 1966, and assuming the lyrics were kept "current", the Beach Boys would've absolutely continued to be at or near the top. And that, I believe, was Mike's basic premise.
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Dancing Bear
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« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2009, 07:23:04 PM »

Mike does admit he had a problem with some of the Smile lyrics. We don't need to turn him into a moron who wanted to release Son of I get Around and Fun Fun Fun part II into the late sixties.

"I Get Around", "Help Me Rhonda"and "Good Vibrations" were singles. "Do You Like Worms / Plymouth Rock" would have been an album track. That's how I look at them.
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John
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« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2009, 09:30:20 PM »

Laughed at? Do you mean like they were laughed at with songs like "Darlin", "Do It Again", and "I Can Hear Music"?

The wheel had turned or was about to turn by that point,, back to relative simplicity - John Wesley Harding, Lady Madonna, Jumpin' Jack Flash by the time these records were released.

I don't agree. Yes, you named a few exceptions by a few artists. But, you can't look at the music that was coming out of 1967 and 1968 and call it "simplistic". That was one of the most complex and creative periods in the history of rock & roll.

Ah, but the artists I named were THE prime movers. By early 1968, psychedelia was on the way down, and acoustic, bluesy, retro-styling were back in. The Boys were actually ahead of the pack by a month with Wild Honey. The Byrds were about to go country, and the Band were about to break big, causing Cream to split up as obsolete. The Who went Bo Diddley on "Magic Bus". There's nothing particularly "arty" on Beggars Banquet, or Revolution 9 aside, the White Album. Only cash-in one hit wonders like the Lemon Pipers were still messing around with phased sitars or mumbo-jumbo lyrics.
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« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2009, 12:27:25 AM »

Brian either wrote or encouraged that ant Heroes rap done for Leid in Hawaii. He is heard laughing and singing on it. Brian was quoted at various as saying he loved the Smiley, Wild Honey, and Friends sessions. Desper among others would argue that the late sixties/early seventies was a great time for the group as a group. That group largely still included Brian who through 1970 wrote most of the songs. He wanted to work with Mike and the others. He liked Mike and the others. That's shocking isn't it, but true. I would say it was only in 1971 with the use of Surf's Up (really the first time the group went against Brian) and Dennis pulling his songs from release that the fissures start to appear. Even then it wasn't until drugs became a huge factor in 76-77 did the group truly stop working as a team.

What does all this mean? It means Brian ultimately did not understand nor support Smile himself. It also means that during the Beach Boys first decade he was (mostly happily) a big part of the group.
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« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2009, 07:31:47 AM »

I believe that the greatest reason for Smile not being released was what was going on in Brian's head. There seemed to be a switch from confidence to parinoia. Thus believing his house was bugged by Phil Spector or his dad, and that Mrs OLeary's Cow started a fire down the street.  Honestly, I am not sure that the group support was much better for Pet Sounds. If you think about it, Pet Sounds came out of the blue. Where as by the end of 1966 the group had been succesful with Good Vibrations. I think that if Mike were to write lyrics, he would've written more GV or Wild Honey type lyrics then I Get Around or California Girls. Mike's jelousy aside, I don't believe that it had much to do with the cancelation of Smile.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2009, 08:51:08 AM »

At the time and in the years immediately after, before the Brian-as-victimized-genius mythos was developed, Brian made it abundantly clear that he bagged SMiLE for only his own musal and technique-cal reasons, which were numerous and plainly stated; for some reason we aren't able to accept Brian's reasons as his own.
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the captain
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« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2009, 08:53:52 AM »

That's because myths make for better stories.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2009, 09:07:54 AM »

That's because myths make for better stories.

In David Leaf's case, and other author's, yes.

But there is a human element working here. We want to praise, defend, thank, and feel sorry for Brian - because of what he gave us (i.e. the music which made our lives happier), and because of ultimately what happened to him. He IS a sympathetic figure, almost like a martyr if you will. Almost like the Muhammed Ali of music.

Mike, on the other hand, didn't write the music, didn't sing the "tender" parts on "Don't Worry Baby" and "The Lonely Sea", and, didn't fall apart. So, Mike doesn't get sympathy, doesn't get defended, and doesn't get the praise that maybe he deserves. And, Mike knows this, that is why he has been so vocal in recent years. As he likes to put it, he just wants "his due". Yes, Mike's personality is the opposite of the shy, humble, "do they really like me" Brian. So, Mike pays the price for that, too.

Hey, that's life; happens all the time. Maybe, in the end, the facts will dispel the myths. Discussions like this help. They're fun and interesting. too. police
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variable2
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« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2009, 09:09:15 AM »

you know, I was just watching the British BB documentary from 2004 and it offered a slightly different reason for Van Dyke leaving.  He says himself in the doc that he left when the music started to get really out.. like the fire session.. so not just the Mike/lyrics issue.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2009, 09:13:56 AM »

you know, I was just watching the British BB documentary from 2004 and it offered a slightly different reason for Van Dyke leaving.  He says himself in the doc that he left when the music started to get really out.. like the fire session.. so not just the Mike/lyrics issue.

Gee, I wonder what changed his mind when he came back in 2003? Is it hot as hell or is it me? Evil
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the captain
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« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2009, 09:16:05 AM »

That's because myths make for better stories.

But there is a human element working here. We want to praise, defend, thank, and feel sorry for Brian - because of what he gave us (i.e. the music which made our lives happier), and because of ultimately what happened to him. He IS a sympathetic figure, almost like a martyr if you will. Almost like the Muhammed Ali of music.

Because myths make for better stories.  Wink
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« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2009, 09:16:14 AM »

I know I'm in a minority, but think the cause is more prosaic than dramatic. On one documentary, I saw Brian Wilson shrug and say "It was taking me on a trip I didn't want to go on." I think that pretty much sums it up. All the ego of Wilson, the trying-to-beat-the-Beatles bullmerda(what does that even mean?),  dealing with a dissatisfied record company, arguing with his own band,possibly including his brothers, on top of the fact that what he was attempting was extremely bewildering....No demons. No major breakdowns. No stay in the funny farm. No broken minds. Just "foda this merda--it ain't worth it" in the end.

But who knows? It makes for interesting reading.
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Bean Bag
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« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2009, 09:29:01 AM »

After watching the movie "Walk Hard:  The Dewey Cox Story" I can't help but feel there's some similarity between the SMiLE sessions and the scene where the band breaks up over Dewey's "unfinished-experimental track."   LOL  He wanted a 1000 diggery-doos.  Haha!

Seriously...Mike-schmike, I think Brian probably got to be so annoying and flipped out -- A massive genius pain in the ass.  No doubt Mike would have loved to have Smile hit the shelves in Jan.  That's obvious.  I think all the enablers around Brian today were the same one's that got inside his head back then.  Telling Brian everything he wanted to hear.  Mike was, like, a narc to them.   Roll Eyes

Stupid hippies.  I think Marilyn could clear this ALL up, by the way.  Mike, who's certainly cocky and annoying all himself, was--for me--the other half of the Beach Boys.  At least 1/4, anyway.  Sure, the Wilson boys would have been fine by themselves, but Mike and Brian working together was one of the great creative pairs in music history.


For what it's worth...when playing BWPS awhile ago, someone commented to me -- "wow these lyrics are horrible,...the music's really good, but those lyrics..."

 Wink

I don't know which part they were reacting to, but there's moments when it is a tad stupid for me.  Just as when there's parts of Pet Sounds that are over the top, touchy-feely.  I think Mike and Brian, focused together were hands-down the best.  It would have been nice if Mike was given the opportunity to smooth out the many wrinkles in SMiLE, just he did with Good Vibrations.  Would have been a million-and-two seller!

 3D  (i like smileys.)

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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2009, 09:33:23 AM »

I know I'm in a minority, but think the cause is more prosaic than dramatic. On one documentary, I saw Brian Wilson shrug and say "It was taking me on a trip I didn't want to go on." I think that pretty much sums it up. All the ego of Wilson, the trying-to-beat-the-Beatles bullmerda(what does that even mean?),  dealing with a dissatisfied record company, arguing with his own band,possibly including his brothers, on top of the fact that what he was attempting was extremely bewildering....No demons. No major breakdowns. No stay in the funny farm. No broken minds. Just "foda this merda--it ain't worth it" in the end.

Well, according to this thread, Lance, you're not in the minority. And, that might be one of the reasons A Million Units In Jan! started the topic. There are NUMEROUS reasons (you put a number on it! Tongue) why SMiLE was scrapped, but, to SINGLE OUT Mike Love, and vilify him for 41 years for it, well.....
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lance
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« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2009, 09:36:01 AM »

Oh, am I not in the minority? Well then I'm changing my mind!  Grin  I agree it is unfair to single out Mike alone for that. There are plenty of other things that we can blame him for!!
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« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2009, 09:37:27 AM »

Why Brian dropped SMiLE?
Brian dropped it because he could not finish it.  Once VDP left there was noboby in the band capable of completing it.  I suspect that if the band returned from Japan and walked into the studio and Brian told them the concept and layed it out for them it would have been finished - even if they didn't like it.

Did the Band Like SMiLE?
They did not know what SMiLE was.  All they had were a bunch of fragments and a few songs - none of which was commercial.  If Carl could have made it happen in 1971 he would have.  

Mike Love:
There are a lot of reasons to dislike him but the collapse of SMiLE is not one of them.  If I was in the band I would have been concerned too.  How could a four piece band (well 5 if you include Mike's sax) do any type of justice to the music?


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« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2009, 10:14:14 AM »



What should have happened in Beautiful Dreamer:  Brian turns to the camera and says...

Quote from: Brian Wilson
What?  Why didn't Smile get done?  Are you serious?  Dude...did you see me?  Have you seen the videos?

I got so high on the drugs and my flaked out ego...that I forgot how to finish the whole thing!!  Dude, I was nuts!  I thought Phil Spector was living in my toilet!

Then, I like promised to Capitol I would have it all done by December 1966!!  Ha!  There was no way that was gonna happen!  I told them that so they'd get off my back.  I was a genius, and they were crowding my ride.

Then...I started to get really, really weird.  I mean, you've heard about the sand-box and the tent right?  Was that all necessary?  I have no f@#$%ing idea!!!

The band?  Well, I didn't bring the guys in enough.  I had them trust me on good-faith.  Did I mention I was on tons of drugs?  I was.  My mind started to go.  I was fighting with the guys about the music...which was all over the place by this time.  Mike and I disagreed with the lyrics.  I had everyone grunting like animals.  Hey, it was the late 60s, man!!

In a nutshell, it was all one really big grand idea -- that required way too much, in way too little time.  Period.  And I was working on a diet of mind bending drugs, don't forget that.

Its demise shouldn't be a shock, really.  I mean, how many times do I need to go over this.  Next question.



What did happened in Beautiful Dreamer:  Brian turns to the camera and says...

Quote from: Brian Wilson
Mike didn't like it.

 Roll Eyes
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the captain
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« Reply #95 on: January 02, 2009, 10:33:35 AM »

Now that's a large font size.
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« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2009, 11:35:31 AM »

Well, I have said it before many many times on this site, and I have stayed off this site after being attacked. But from everything I have been able to gather from all the reading and listening to interviews as well as talking to people who were there, here is my opinion of the SMiLE era.

1.) Except for Van Dyke and David Anderle, do ANY of these other people (Vosse, Darro, etc) sound like they are "enlightened" people? Lauren makes my skin crawl! Brian is suffering through a VERY BAD acid trip on drugs that you gave him, and all you can do is LAUGH? And then laugh about it 40 years later and say that the drugs and not his talent enabled him to write better songs? Are you freakin' kidding me. This guy is like an acid-tinged used car salesman. HE THINKS he inspired SMILE. HAH! As for the rest of the ass clowns, if I was in the Beach Boys and I saw this group hanging around Brian, I would be pissed as well. These are not GOOD PEOPLE! You don't have to take my word for it. Read interviews with them. They were hanger-ons at best, more sinister at worst.

2.) Someone who knows him well enough (and likes him) still tells me that Van Dyke is EXACTLY like Mike Love (but from the other end of the spectrum). He is as hurtful and cunning as anyone. He cuts with words instead of deeds. But he cuts.

3.) Mike Love (whom I have actually come to like...not alot...but some) was in a very very difficult spot in 1966. As the oldest of the group, I think he took on a paternal figure attitude towards everyone in the group. He was also brought up (as we now know) by a very disfunctional family, though not abusive like the Wilson's. He did what he could. I have had friends who ventured down some dark paths with "new" friends whom I tried to step in and help. I was called the square etc. And yet I was left to clean up after they had moved on. So I fell for Mike in that respect. The lawsuits, the lack of rehearsal time in the 1980s, that stuff was TOTALLY uncalled for, and was an affront to long suffering fans. I still am really pissed about his attitude on those issues.
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« Reply #97 on: January 02, 2009, 11:54:46 AM »

Amen, petsite!
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« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2009, 03:08:12 PM »

Bah, this sympathizing is getting a bit out of hand, I think. To me, it's clear the Brian suffered greatly from people around him not being open-minded enough, particularly his family. He tried to surround himself with open-minded friends, but from what we can gather from first and second hand reports, Brian wound up feeling either used or let down by these people. Just take Van Dyke. Sure, he says some nice things about Brian. At the same time, he sharply criticizes the "Fire" music (who doesn't like the "Fire" music?) and the scene around it (sorry, but I don't get what the big deal about fire hats is, it's not something unusual for an avant-garde artist to do) and all of Brian's little skits with his friends. You can hear Van Dyke acting a little snooty in the background during the vegetable argument skits, in fact. He also has made a lot of judgments about Brian's family publicly, such as he famously has with Mike. He was also paranoid about doing any pot smoking at Brian's house, because of the recent drug stings on celebrities. Another thing for him to look down on, on top of the sandbox and the tepee, which he also criticizes. In other words, Van Dyke appears to be somewhat judgmental and stuck up.

I don't think, in the end, he was the open-minded kind of person Brian was truly looking for, and it's part of why he set Van Dyke up against Mike. I think Brian was disappointed by both sides and wanted to see if they could work it out or if it would just blow up. It blew up, which was probably what Brian expected. Van Dyke and Mike were symbols for the greater problem Brian was suffering from,. I think he was worn out from the friction he experienced from both sides. His 'enlightened' drug friends were just as close-minded as his family in the end, just in a different way. Brian wanted to create a spiritual experience everywhere one could feel, and it was clear that Van Dyke was above communicating with "philistines". And Mike, while well-intentioned, was, I think, clueless when it came to understanding what Brian actually wanted from SMiLE.

Now, sure, Brian could have soldiered on anyway and made the album. Nothing was actually stopping him. Still, all of that drama can get exasperating. He just got sick of fighting for it. I think he was left feeling like no one was on his side, and he couldn't take it.
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« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2009, 04:05:18 PM »

Dada, you're fair and balanced in your analysis of Van Dyke, Mike and the Vosse Posse.

But what about Brian? He could be as much of an amateur human being as Van Dyke and Mike. Wink And unless you work exclusively with people who are on a salary and you're the boss, it's good politics to project where circumstances can lead. He WAS signed to Capitol, he KNEW they would expect a new album for Christmas. Pretending you're surprised or hurt with the record company's reaction when it's already February and there's no album on the line... Hey, face your responsabilities or buy off your contract, so you can take n years to finish Smile. The same applies for Van Dyke, a COLLABORATOR, and Mike, a BAND MEMBER. They were not Brian's employees.
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