Mike Love and SMiLE (no, not what you think)

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, it's The Newly-Repackaged, Spit-Shined, Vacuum-Packed, bullmerda-Ridden THREAD!!!!!!!!!

So, uh, whatdoyamean? 

[Bicyclerider]

Carl saying he liked Van Dyke's lyrics is not the same thing as Carl supporting and liking the Smile project - it may seem like nitpicking, but he could have admired and liked the lyrics and at the same time felt the lyrics/music was not commercial and not appropriate for the Beach Boys to do and release (and then have to tour behind).  Which is ultimately what Brian decided since he aborted the project.  My feeling is that Carl withdrawing or not offering support in the face of Mike's objections really swayed Brian - Carl was in the studio with Brian a lot and grew increasingly concerned Brian was unable to finish the project or even finish the next single.  Carl wrote out the infamous track list and apparently was much more involved with trying to finish Smile and then anything (like a single, then Smiley smile) than we assume.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Interesting points, Bicyclerider. When the scrapping of SMiLE is discussed, Mike Love's name is usually the first one mentioned, and Carl Wilson is usually left out of the discussion. But, when you think about it, who's opinion do you think Brian would've valued the most - the non-musician, commercial-thinking, stick to the formula Mike Love, or the brother and "right-hand man", Carl Wilson, who Brian prayed with before the sessions?

[Dancing Bear]

Carl saying he liked Van Dyke's lyrics is not the same thing as Carl supporting and liking the Smile project - it may seem like nitpicking, but he could have admired and liked the lyrics and at the same time felt the lyrics/music was not commercial and not appropriate for the Beach Boys to do and release (and then have to tour behind).  Which is ultimately what Brian decided since he aborted the project.  My feeling is that Carl withdrawing or not offering support in the face of Mike's objections really swayed Brian - Carl was in the studio with Brian a lot and grew increasingly concerned Brian was unable to finish the project or even finish the next single.  Carl wrote out the infamous track list and apparently was much more involved with trying to finish Smile and then anything (like a single, then Smiley smile) than we assume.

Had Smile been released in the first half of 1967, Carl would have been the one who saved the day. He was the Glimpses guy who actually had a chance to make it happen.

I don't understand where you're faulting him. Trying to help to finish an album you've been working on for almost a year, what's so evil about it?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't understand where you're faulting him. Trying to help to finish an album you've been working on for almost a year, what's so evil about it?

Not to speak for Bicyclerider, but wanted to respond....Is it possible that Carl was walking the same thin line that Mike was walking? That is, maybe they were trying to do the best they could - whether it be singing (in Mike's case) or helping in the studio (in Carl's case) - but their hearts weren't really in it. And Brian sensed it.....

[Dancing Bear]

I don't understand where you're faulting him. Trying to help to finish an album you've been working on for almost a year, what's so evil about it?

Not to speak for Bicyclerider, but wanted to respond....Is it possible that Carl was walking the same thin line that Mike was walking? That is, maybe they were trying to do the best they could - whether it be singing (in Mike's case) or helping in the studio (in Carl's case) - but their hearts weren't really in it. And Brian sensed it.....

It's possible. But when you WANNA do something, almost nothing matters, and when you don't, every little reason counts.

If Brian was that concerned about Mike's feelings, California Girl's credits would read (Wilson - Love) in SD&SN. But alright, Brian being the kind of person he was, I can see how he felt like punishing Mike for being Mike and at the same time got terribly hurt when his cousin wasn't totally supportive of his new project.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't understand where you're faulting him. Trying to help to finish an album you've been working on for almost a year, what's so evil about it?

Not to speak for Bicyclerider, but wanted to respond....Is it possible that Carl was walking the same thin line that Mike was walking? That is, maybe they were trying to do the best they could - whether it be singing (in Mike's case) or helping in the studio (in Carl's case) - but their hearts weren't really in it. And Brian sensed it.....

It's possible. But when you WANNA do something, almost nothing matters, and when you don't, every little reason counts.

No argument here, D.B. I was just trying to suggest another scenario/theory that might explain Brian's state of mind around that time.

[Bicyclerider]

I wasn't "faulting" Carl - just suggesting that Carl was more involved with the Smile project than any other Beach Boy besides Brian, and if Carl either explicitly or be saying nothing tacitly agreed with or supported Mike's reservations about the project, it would weigh heavily on Brian.

I don't see where Brian was "punishing" Mike - he was pursuing his artistic muse and he felt he couldn't do that with Mike as his sole collaborator.  That bothered and hurt Mike (financially and with his position in the group) but hurting him I'm sure was the farthest thing from Brian's mind.  By aborting smile Brian was actually capitulating to Mike and giving him back his position in the group (collaborating with him on songs for Smiley and releasing a single credited to "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" - you don't think that was a reward for Mike and essentially "penance" for Brian?).

[Ganz Allein]

It's possible. But when you WANNA do something, almost nothing matters, and when you don't, every little reason counts.

Unfortunately it's usually not that simple.  Having been involved in music projects myself, I can attest that even if you really want to do something and believe in it, continual lack of support (not to mention opposition) from important bandmates, friends, etc. can really drag you down and make you doubt something you know is good.  I think Brian suffered from that combined with the loss of a collaborator who could truly help tie all of SMiLE together.  According to interviews with Brian from back in the day, VDP was helping with music on occasion in addition to being the lyricist.  (And, of course, Brian needed him a few years back to finish BWPS.)  With VDP no longer committed to the original project, there wasn't anyone else who could help Brian bring his grand vision to final fruition.  Carl and Dennis may have started some things around this time (e.g. "Tones"), but in '67 the complexity of the SMiLE music was just too much for them to help bring together.  They wouldn't gain the necessary skills until later.

I don't think Brian stopped wanting to do SMiLE right away after he "junked" it.  I think that came a little later.  Rather, I think he gave up temporarily because he didn't see a way to make it happen like he'd originally envisioned.  I have a feeling that if H&V had met with more commercial success, he might've been motivated to go back to it.  And if Wild Honey or Friends had somehow taken off, Brian might well have felt empowered and returned to SMiLE even later.

[Dancing Bear]

I wasn't "faulting" Carl - just suggesting that Carl was more involved with the Smile project than any other Beach Boy besides Brian, and if Carl either explicitly or be saying nothing tacitly agreed with or supported Mike's reservations about the project, it would weigh heavily on Brian.?).

Ok

I don't see where Brian was "punishing" Mike - he was pursuing his artistic muse and he felt he couldn't do that with Mike as his sole collaborator.  That bothered and hurt Mike (financially and with his position in the group) but hurting him I'm sure was the farthest thing from Brian's mind.  By aborting smile Brian was actually capitulating to Mike and giving him back his position in the group (collaborating with him on songs for Smiley and releasing a single credited to "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" - you don't think that was a reward for Mike and essentially "penance" for Brian?).

Ok, "punish"was too harsh a word. Let's say that Mike was Hawthorne and dorky. Brian wanted to leave dorkiness and Hawthorne behind. Including his own.

After 1964, McCartney always had a left-handed electric guitar in the studio, which pissed Harrison off. You could say those were McCartney songs, his artistic muse, his right to say who was gonna play lead guitar. While others could say that atittudes like this were what made the Beatles break up, little by little.

Of course George would never flat out demand to be the official lead guitarist in every Beatles track. And Mike couldn't flat out demand to be the sole lyricist. And Brian couldn't flat out demand that the group should love every tiny bit of music that he produced. Groups can be a drag.

By aborting smile Brian was actually capitulating to Mike and giving him back his position in the group (collaborating with him on songs for Smiley and releasing a single credited to "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" - you don't think that was a reward for Mike and essentially "penance" for Brian?).

No, he was solving HIS problem. "How the hell do I sequence this album? Where's the single? What if it bombs?" Smiley Smile solved it, and quick. I don't, for one second, believe that he decided to shelf anything for the sake of Mike, or Carl, or Dennis, or anyone in the world.

For Gettin' Hungry and Wild Honey, Mike was still around, basically because he had no better professional perspectives. Van Dyke, Anderle, Vosse, Schwartz etc had, or thought they had.

[Dancing Bear]

It's possible. But when you WANNA do something, almost nothing matters, and when you don't, every little reason counts.

Unfortunately it's usually not that simple.

Of course it's not that simple. I wouldn't expect to sum Smile - and solve THE THREAD - in two sentences. 

But it's part of the big picture, as much as opposition, drugs, family, Capitol lawsuit etc.

[Bicyclerider]

No, he was solving HIS problem. "How the hell do I sequence this album? Where's the single? What if it bombs?" Smiley Smile solved it, and quick. I don't, for one second, believe that he decided to shelf anything for the sake of Mike, or Carl, or Dennis, or anyone in the world.

For Gettin' Hungry and Wild Honey, Mike was still around, basically because he had no better professional perspectives. Van Dyke, Anderle, Vosse, Schwartz etc had, or thought they had.

I DO believe Brian shelved Smile for the sake of group and family harmony - at least that's what Van Dyke says, and I believe him.  But he ALSO shelved it because Brian stopped believing in it (Van Dyke being off doing his own thing didn't help there), and because he realized he couldn't finish it and a single in a reasonable amount of time (Capitol/Brother Records pressure for product, drug use and incipient mental illness).  You're right, Smiley was the solution - both a quickie minimalist production that delivered a record AND a group production/effort that eschewed studio musicians and reinforced the family ethos of the group.  And gave Mike more of a role.  Wild Honey was the Solution Part 2 - some Mike leads, songs written with Mike, songs that could be easily reproduced on stage.

[Cam Mott]

Just can't buy it, Brian didn't change to please people, people changed to please Brian. You can hear it all over the recordings. You hear about it in the frcition between Brian and VDP. You see it in Capitol sitting on their hands waiting for something, anything whenever Brian got around to it. You see it how Brian bagged some of the Posse. The engineers bending rules for Brian. Brian ran roughshod over the group making SMiLE and then ran roughshod over them to bag it over their objections because he wanted to bag it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Smiley had more to do with costs now being fronted by Brothers more than anything about inter-group politics.

[Dancing Bear]

No, he was solving HIS problem. "How the hell do I sequence this album? Where's the single? What if it bombs?" Smiley Smile solved it, and quick. I don't, for one second, believe that he decided to shelf anything for the sake of Mike, or Carl, or Dennis, or anyone in the world.

For Gettin' Hungry and Wild Honey, Mike was still around, basically because he had no better professional perspectives. Van Dyke, Anderle, Vosse, Schwartz etc had, or thought they had.

I DO believe Brian shelved Smile for the sake of group and family harmony - at least that's what Van Dyke says, and I believe him.  But he ALSO shelved it because Brian stopped believing in it (Van Dyke being off doing his own thing didn't help there), and because he realized he couldn't finish it and a single in a reasonable amount of time (Capitol/Brother Records pressure for product, drug use and incipient mental illness).  You're right, Smiley was the solution - both a quickie minimalist production that delivered a record AND a group production/effort that eschewed studio musicians and reinforced the family ethos of the group.  And gave Mike more of a role.  Wild Honey was the Solution Part 2 - some Mike leads, songs written with Mike, songs that could be easily reproduced on stage.

Van Dyke also says that the Beatles sneaked in LA studios in the middle of the night to steal his concepts. 

The problem with van Dyke's quote is that it's too perfect - for his own sake. He left the project in an altruistic gesture, Brian shelved it in a altruistic gesture... I guess that makes the Beach Boys some insensitive sons of a bitch who couldn't understand high art even if their career depended on it, right?

When we say that Mike wanted a bigger role as a lyricist and lead singer, I think it's totally normal. And at least he had proved that he could be great in both roles. There's no need to elevate his attitude to any higher level than the fact that he was standing for himself. Sure, don't expect to have him admiting it in interviews... And the same goes for those who are still alive: Brian, Van Dyke etc.

Now, Brian. What makes you believe he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony? The same guy who ditched new-best-friends as easily as he took naps? Not to mention his detachment from family later on, which certainly can't be all justified by mental illness. He doesn't have to be a hero, a martyr, a victim. He can be Mike Love.

Wow, I just put down Brian to Mike's level. Real Beach Boy, who says nothing new happens in the Thread? 

[Sheriff John Stone]

When we say that Mike wanted a bigger role as a lyricist and lead singer, I think it's totally normal. And at least he had proved that he could be great in both roles.

It was totally normal, wasn't it? Which is why I defend Mike so much. I mean, yeah, I wish Mike would've "gotten" SMiLE, would've appreciated it, would've encouraged it. But he didn't. And I don't hold any ill feelings toward him for it - because I KNOW I would've been just like him. I would've reacted the same way. I wonder how many others would've reacted like Mike, if they were in his shoes? At that time in 1966? But won't admit it. 20/20 hindsight is great isn't it?

[the captain]

You're wrecking the story! Brian was a sad genius who was shat upon. Mike's the asshole. Dennis was cute, sensitive and a genius, to boot. Carl's a peacemaking saint. Al is short. Stick to the fucking formula!

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

Nice one Luther! 

If I was in any of the band members positions when faced with the SMiLE project, I would've probably reacted worse than they did.
People seem to defend any Brian does because he's a genius; but he was turning into a major drug addict. I wouldn't bet my career on following a drug addict, and at the same time watch my brother or cousin sink that low. I would have walked away from SMiLE myself.

[Shady]

I do love Mike, but the way I view it is this, Mike was at the time (by sunflower I feel he changed) a money obsessed tool, he had no musical vision, all he saw was chicks, fame and money. When he heard SMiLE all he heard was change, something that doesn't sound like regular Beach Boys, something not 'commercial', his support would of helped Brian, would it of saved SMiLE who knows.

But he did sing his lines (very well), and for that he should get Kudos.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Mike was at the time (by sunflower I feel he changed) a money obsessed tool, he had no musical vision, all he saw was chicks, fame and money. When he heard SMiLE all he heard was change, something that doesn't sound like regular Beach Boys, something not 'commercial'....

All he saw was chicks, fame, and money. You got a problem with that?

You're probably right, but, wasn't Dennis, and maybe another Beach Boy or two? And a couple thousand other rock and rollers! Seriously, change is a difficult thing, ESPECIALLY when you're experiencing success. I wouldn't have wanted to go from "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations" to "Do You Like Worms". How about you?

[Dancing Bear]

All he saw was chicks, fame, and money.
You got a problem with that?



     

[John]

I do love Mike, but the way I view it is this, Mike was at the time (by sunflower I feel he changed) a money obsessed tool, he had no musical vision, all he saw was chicks, fame and money. When he heard SMiLE all he heard was change, something that doesn't sound like regular Beach Boys, something not 'commercial', his support would of helped Brian, would it of saved SMiLE who knows.

One thing people never factor into these things I feel is that Mike, as well as Brian, is also really competitive. Of course, he is, look at his "R n R Hall of Fame" rant. He's not a stupid man, and I cannot believe that he'd think that doing fun-in-the-sun stuff while the Beatles pull out Revolver and Pepper would keep them where they were. It would be the experimental, not the usual old stuff, that would give them status. They'd seen the Marksmen, the Sunrays, all those guys fall away; if Brian - who hadn't steered them wrong yet during an era when the goalposts changed every two weeks - assured them that this would be the way to avoid going the way of those surf groups, he'd have listened.

He didn't want the old stuff. He wanted the new stuff, but he wanted it out in the stores. Not sat endlessly in the studio.

I don't understand how people can get on his back for that stupid HoF speech and all the jealousy and rivalry it contained, and then say, "Ah, but in 1967 he wanted them to do I Get Around Part II, that would've stood up to Strawberry Fields and Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby? LOLZ!!!". It's one or the other. And his objection with SMiLE was that it wasn't happening quick enough, not that it was. I'm sure of it.

[Bicyclerider]

Now, Brian. What makes you believe he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony? The same guy who ditched new-best-friends as easily as he took naps? Not to mention his detachment from family later on, which certainly can't be all justified by mental illness. He doesn't have to be a hero, a martyr, a victim. He can be Mike Love.

Wow, I just put down Brian to Mike's level. Real Beach Boy, who says nothing new happens in the Thread? 

I think he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony because Brian hated conflict and did everything he could to avoid it - always has.  He changed the lyrics to Hang on to you ego because of it.  He toured for years despite hating it because of it.  He put up with his father as manager and "producer" for far too long because of it.  He was hypersensitive to criticism and almost gave away Good Vibrations as a song because of it.  He gave up Redwood because of it.  So yeah, he would definitely go out of his way.  But I never said that was the ONLY reason Smile was aborted - it was more complicated than that. 

[Dancing Bear]

Now, Brian. What makes you believe he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony? The same guy who ditched new-best-friends as easily as he took naps? Not to mention his detachment from family later on, which certainly can't be all justified by mental illness. He doesn't have to be a hero, a martyr, a victim. He can be Mike Love.

Wow, I just put down Brian to Mike's level. Real Beach Boy, who says nothing new happens in the Thread? 

I think he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony because Brian hated conflict and did everything he could to avoid it - always has.  He changed the lyrics to Hang on to you ego because of it.  He toured for years despite hating it because of it.  He put up with his father as manager and "producer" for far too long because of it.  He was hypersensitive to criticism and almost gave away Good Vibrations as a song because of it.  He gave up Redwood because of it.  So yeah, he would definitely go out of his way.  But I never said that was the ONLY reason Smile was aborted - it was more complicated than that. 

It's not like Mike got everything his way in 1966, is it? When Brian does what we want - writing and recording Smile - we applaud him for following his artistic muse. Whe he doesn't - shelving Smile and recording Smiley Smile instead - then he must be caving in to outside pressure, avoiding conflict, going out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony, dumbing down arrangements so that the band could perform 'Wind Chimes' in Salt Lake City. He always wins, no wonder he's a genius. 

Ain't it strage that when it was announced that he would revisit Smile, no one suggested that he was avoiding conflict with his wife and manager?

[Shady]

Mike was at the time (by sunflower I feel he changed) a money obsessed tool, he had no musical vision, all he saw was chicks, fame and money. When he heard SMiLE all he heard was change, something that doesn't sound like regular Beach Boys, something not 'commercial'....

All he saw was chicks, fame, and money. You got a problem with that?

You're probably right, but, wasn't Dennis, and maybe another Beach Boy or two? And a couple thousand other rock and rollers! Seriously, change is a difficult thing, ESPECIALLY when you're experiencing success. I wouldn't have wanted to go from "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations" to "Do You Like Worms". How about you?

But that's the thing, if the BB released "I Get Around" or "Help Me Rhonda" in 66 they would never of got to number 1, The BB would of been laughed at. The culture was ready for "Do You Like Worms" and "Good Vibrations".

Mike should of realised that, SMiLE was perfect for it's time, damn the whole culture was changing..But I digress, Mike was in no way the reason SMiLE was shelved, and he did sing his parts.

[John]

I wouldn't have wanted to go from "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations" to "Do You Like Worms". How about you?

"Do You Like Worms" is just a funny name, that might well have changed. With the lyrics, it's a lot less weird, only about as weird as "Vibes" really.