Mike Love and SMiLE (no, not what you think)

[Dancing Bear]

I hate to say this because it reflects more poorly on Brian than it does on Mike, but...

Brian sold Van Dyke out. Brian was the one who called Van to try and "explain" lyrics to Mike. Brian knew Mike would have a merda fit and (whether he knew it or not) basically set Van up to be humiliated. Like a lot of people who have been ousted from the group's inner circle, it shouldn't  come as a shock that Van would have some bitterness about the experience.

I think Brian had a problem in caring too much about what people thought, and another problem in not caring about people.

We can look at it two ways: Brian was human and/or he was as much of an asshole as any other Beach Boy. The former sounds more forgiving and understanding.

[adamghost]

Wow....great thread, and very thoughtful posts.

I think everybody here is right...that is to say, Mike had a lot to do with SMILE being shelved IMHO, but you can't "blame" it on him. The way things were going down at the time were not something he could get behind.  And -- I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet -- Brian's communication skills were probably not the greatest, and he may not have articulated to the guys WHY they were spending eight months on an album.  That is a very dangerous thing to try and pull off.   You may run the band and have absolute control but people have a breaking point.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to grow musically and do what you need to do as an artist, but if you alienate your in-house supporters (and Brian may well have alienated everybody in the band, not just Mike), then you're asking for trouble.

All this stuff is basic Band 101...rock bands are political entities; imagine being married to five people.  That's just what it's like.  Now think of the different kinds of personalities and negotiations that go on in a marriage, depending on different peoples' roles and needs.  Expanding it further, I think the hipster angle is a very astute observation.  Life is a lot like high school in that regard and the artistic community REALLY functions this way.  Witness the fact that it took until the late '80s (later, really) for the "Brian is a Genius" meme to really take hold.  Brian's the ultimate hipster now, but it took nearly 30 years for that to happen.

If Brian really was going to progress after PET SOUNDS, he probably needed to throw Mike overboard and/or go solo.  Not a diss at Mike, but Mike had a certain thing he wanted to protect and he needed to keep Brian on the reservation to do that.  Brian likewise probably couldn't go where he wanted to go with Mike riding shotgun.  But Brian tossing Mike or the Beach Boys completely aside wasn't realistic because of the family dynamic, and because Brian probably wasn't emotionally moored enough to make that kind of break, and really, who would be in that situation?  Add in Brian's other issues and there's no way that could happen.  So basically we arrived at an impasse where Brian just withdrew, with no path forward, and a basic misunderstanding and difference of vision that plagued the band ever since.

It's tragic, but it's not that surprising given the people involved.  But that's how bands work, y'know?  The reason the Beatles ruled weren't just that they were gifted creators, but they were four guys who were, for most of their careers, all paddling the boat in the same direction, pooling their individual talents very effectively as a group.  When that stopped happening, they split up fairly soon afterward and moved on with their lives.  Very different situation from the Beach Boys'.

[Dr. Tim]

This again?  You guys haven't found enough enigmas wrapped inside riddles - which is all this is? We all know that by now, don't we?

Well here are two more for you.  Van Dyke and Mike may have gone at each other over the years over who kilt Smile and who's hipper than who with acid alliteration, but nevertheless during that time VDP got the BB signed to Warners, played and sang on the "Surfs Up" LP, made Brian write SOS, and played accordion on Kokomo, all the while mainitaining some kind of cordial working relationship with all the various factions - a tribute to his politesse, it's true, but he could have been really temperamental and just walked away for good.  But he didn't. While his solo career was no great shakes, he's been in demand over the years, and has certainly had a career to be proud of, if not as well known as the careers of some others.

And for Brian, one of his now-known biggest sticking points back then was: he recorded all these fragments, now how do they fit together?  As songs?  A suite?  Banded tracks or segues?  All in all an exponentially more difficult job than GV, and THAT took a few months to gel.   Now BWPS is (to my mind, unfairly) slammed on this board as being just a Darian fanmix.  But maybe in 1966 Brian needed a collaborator - a Darian-like person, or some George Martin or Teo Macero supervisor-type -  - to put the thing together in SOME form and let Brian OK or scrap/change it.  Then he could go "no, this goes with THIS and THAT goes HERE and we can move all THIS to THERE..." - much easier when the scut work has been done for you in advance.  If Brian had thought to take that burden off his shoulders, the thing mighta got finished.  AND YET:  he was basically working alone. It was Brian's decision (and no one else's) NOT to do that, NOT to ask for any help that way, HE was the Artist and all anyone knew to do was to say how fantastic it all was as he juggled acetates.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But maybe in 1966 Brian needed a collaborator - a Darian-like person, or some George Martin or Teo Macero supervisor-type -  - to put the thing together in SOME form and let Brian OK or scrap/change it.  Then he could go "no, this goes with THIS and THAT goes HERE and we can move all THIS to THERE..."

Gee, how about his COLLABORATOR, Van Dyke Parks? Oh, that's right, Van Dyke left because his feelings were hurt - or - he took the money (for a solo album) and ran. You know, it's amazing. Van Dyke Parks had very little good things to say about Mike Love, yet, he (VDP) valued (?) Mike's opinions of his lyrics so much that he got so upset and took his ball and went home.

[runnersdialzero]

But maybe in 1966 Brian needed a collaborator - a Darian-like person, or some George Martin or Teo Macero supervisor-type -  - to put the thing together in SOME form and let Brian OK or scrap/change it.  Then he could go "no, this goes with THIS and THAT goes HERE and we can move all THIS to THERE..."

Gee, how about his COLLABORATOR, Van Dyke Parks? Oh, that's right, Van Dyke left because his feelings were hurt - or - he took the money (for a solo album) and ran. You know, it's amazing. Van Dyke Parks had very little good things to say about Mike Love, yet, he (VDP) valued (?) Mike's opinions of his lyrics so much that he got so upset and took his ball and went home.

Eh, I don't think Van Dyke could have done what Darian did. He was a fresh ear to bounce ideas off of, sure, but I do agree with the original post in that Brian became buried under all these pieces of music and he needed someone

I don't think it's all that fair to fault VDP for "taking the money and running." I recall him saying, at one point, that he felt his lyrics and involvement in Smile were not only causing problems for a band, but were causing problems for a family, something he didn't want to do. Also, like someone else pointed out earlier: Brian probably isn't a master of communication and unintentionally sort of threw VDP under the bus when Mike began questioning Parks' lyrics.

I'm not calling VDP an angel or anything, but I think those are just reasons to step out.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I hate to say this because it reflects more poorly on Brian than it does on Mike, but...

Brian sold Van Dyke out. Brian was the one who called Van to try and "explain" lyrics to Mike. Brian knew Mike would have a merda fit and (whether he knew it or not) basically set Van up to be humiliated. Like a lot of people who have been ousted from the group's inner circle, it shouldn't  come as a shock that Van would have some bitterness about the experience.

Right! I was thinking of this today. If Brian had this great faith in what he was doing, why did he need VD to come to the studio to explain the lyrics? Because he was unsure himself if he was doing the right thing. He already had doubts about the album-the other guys questioning of it was sort of the icing on the cake. What is it he says in the Siegel interview, 'People can get hung up on words-maybe they work, maybe they don't'. That doesn't sound like someone very sure about what he's doing.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I thought I read somewhere (David Leaf's book?) that one of the main - if not THE main - reasons Parks left Brian/SMiLE was because he (Parks) signed a contract for a solo album and left to start that project. Does anybody have a timeline on that signing/recording?

According to VDP website, he signed his deal to WB in '66 and Song Cycle came out in '67. However, upon scouring the 'net, I've seen two release dates for the album-November '68 and, according to VDP's website, sometime in '67.

[Dr. Tim]

Gee, how about his COLLABORATOR, Van Dyke Parks? Oh, that's right, Van Dyke left because his feelings were hurt - or - he took the money (for a solo album) and ran. You know, it's amazing. Van Dyke Parks had very little good things to say about Mike Love, yet, he (VDP) valued (?) Mike's opinions of his lyrics so much that he got so upset and took his ball and went home.

I stand by my thesis:  Brian never ASKED Van Dyke to do that.  He didn't WANNA ask.  He was the super-genius producer guy.  That was HIS CHOICE, his call.   And Van Dyke says he considered himself to be Brian's employee, not his equal.   So he did not feel it was his place to offer to help in the assembly, dot was not his yob.  (Should he have offered to help anyway? I'll let all the cognoscenti here chew on that.  As for me, it's Miller time.)

[Bicyclerider]

And if he had been asked to help  sing the lyrics to Surf's Up, then I'm pretty sure he would have done those, based on the fact that he sang the Cabinessence lyrics that he hated so much.

I'm not saying that the truth is that Mike loved SMiLE. I believe that his ( and the BB's) questioning of a lot of the music was a factor in Brian beginning to question the music himself, but it wasn't the ultimate reason why it got shelved-it  just added to Brian's 'dissastifaction', if you will, of the music he was creating. You know, a lot of what we believe or want to believe is based on comments from people like Anderle, Vosse, VDP, Marilyn Wilson-people who adore Brian Wilson and believe the guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There's a reason we pay attention to what Anderle, Vosse, VDP, Marilyn and those people say - they were there, and we weren't.  Marilyn may adore Brian but she doesn't hesitate to criticize him as a father and as a husband, and rightly so.  I don't believe any of those people would exaggerate something to make Brian look better just because they are Brian boosters - they've all been burned by Brian in some way, after all.  I TOTALLY believe Brian is telling the truth when he says Mike didn't like Smile - Van Dyke and Anderle have confirmed it, and Mike, as much as he tries to put his slant on it (it was just some of they lyrics he objected to, he liked the music), made clear his opposition to Van Dyke's participation.  Mike was hostile to Van Dyke and the Smile collaboration, and for good reason - as Sheriff John Stone pointed out, Mike was losing his position in the band, as vocalist and lyric writer, with Pet Sounds and Smile.  That meant MONEY (songwriting royalties) out of his pocket and diminishing influence and loss of his role on stage as "lead singer."  Other collaborators with Brian including roger Christian, Gary Usher, and tony Asher have all said Mike was not happy with their roles, so why would Van Dyke be any different?  Only in that his more "bizarre" lyrics were more open to criticism than the other lyricists' efforts.

The idea that because Mike sang the lyrics he approved of them or it was no big deal is a fallacy - Mike has repeatedly said he didn't understand the crow cries lyrics and Brian calling Van Dyke to explain them, and his inability to essentially aborted the Smile project.  Van Dyke went on to do Song Cycle, only coming back to help Brian try to finish Heroes and Villains, the single, which Mike didn't seem to object to.  But if you examine the "explain the lyrics" incident, you can see that Brian had admitted defeat and clearly was doubting the lyrics himself - because why couldn't Brian explain the lyrics?  If Brian didn't understand them, didn't that concede that Mike was right that the listening public wouldn't understand them?  There wasn't any reason to call Van Dyke at that point - Mike had won.  And Van Dyke must have sensed that immediately, because if no one in the group dug the lyrics or understood the point of them, what explanation would have satisfied them?

Mike sang the lyrics because he was desperate to get more vocals on the album, after being almost shut out of Pet Sounds.  Same reason he was jumping up and down and volunteering to sing Al's parts on Hang onto your ego.  That doesn't mean he wasn't going to criticize the lyrics.  He did refuse to sing "sunny down snuff" in December as part of Heroes, and it wasn't put back in until the Smiley sessions when Mike did sing it - Brian didn't even try to include it in the cantina version in February.  Mike went on to ridicule the line in the Leid in Hawaii "after session" and in concert with the Beach Boys over the past ten years.  And he can't have been happy that initially he and Brian shared the lead vocal for Heroes, and sang the cantina section, only to have Brian cut his part on the verses out completely and take over the cantina lead as well.

I think Mike's hostility and the doubt it created in Brian's mind AND Brian's inability to explain Smile to the band (someone mentioned Brian's difficulty in communicating, and that was a large part of it - the Boys were doing bits and pieces of vocals in sections, not even sure what song they were doing at times as sections changed, and Brian wasn't helping matters in demonstrating he had a firm handle on what he was doing) killed smile.  Van Dyke's inability to win over Mike and the rest of the Beach Boys as to the commercial prospects of Smile didn't help matters, but I believe the project would have been aborted no matter what Van Dyke had said to Mike and the others.

[Cam Mott]

Can't agree with the ol' saw that Brian didn't know how he wanted what he was recording to fit together because he noted and called out what each recording was for and where its place was as he recorded them.

I still don't get why we are hunting for someone to blame, there is no blame.  Brian did exactly what he wanted to do regardless of what anyone else did or said and in one way or another just let everyone lump it as he did what he wanted; VDP, the Boys, the Posse, Capitol, they all could and did just lump it while Brian spent and delayed and did and re-did as he pleased in his own way and time.

[Dr. Tim]

Don't think I said Brian was unaware what went where in the recording process -- more accurate to say, he kept changing his mind.  Hence the parties where he would, as I said, juggle acetates and wow his audience with one sequence, which they'd pronounce good, then he'd do a different juggle, which they'd pronounce good, etc.

[TdHabib]

If Brian really was going to progress after PET SOUNDS, he probably needed to throw Mike overboard and/or go solo.  Not a diss at Mike, but Mike had a certain thing he wanted to protect and he needed to keep Brian on the reservation to do that.  Brian likewise probably couldn't go where he wanted to go with Mike riding shotgun.  But Brian tossing Mike or the Beach Boys completely aside wasn't realistic because of the family dynamic, and because Brian probably wasn't emotionally moored enough to make that kind of break, and really, who would be in that situation?  Add in Brian's other issues and there's no way that could happen.  So basically we arrived at an impasse where Brian just withdrew, with no path forward, and a basic misunderstanding and difference of vision that plagued the band ever since.

I think we can all agree on that, good post...

And also Van Dyke did come back in April 67 to work on "Vegetables," that needs to be said. Anyone know more about that?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

This post wasn't started as a post to try and 'blame' somebody, because if you want to do that, really, all of them are to 'blame'.

I was making a post about the fact that for many years, I always believed that SMiLE was never finished because of the other boys, particularly Mike Love. I don't know if I really buy that anymore. Was he part of it? Yes, just like the lawsuit, Brian's mind going in a million different directions, the other guys- along with Brian- maybe not getting the lyrics. I don't think he's anymore responsible than anything else. Also, sometimes I think we tend to forget that they were just young guys with big ego's, and that probably played just as big a role as anything else.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But maybe in 1966 Brian needed a collaborator - a Darian-like person, or some George Martin or Teo Macero supervisor-type -  - to put the thing together in SOME form and let Brian OK or scrap/change it.  Then he could go "no, this goes with THIS and THAT goes HERE and we can move all THIS to THERE..."

Gee, how about his COLLABORATOR, Van Dyke Parks? Oh, that's right, Van Dyke left because his feelings were hurt - or - he took the money (for a solo album) and ran. You know, it's amazing. Van Dyke Parks had very little good things to say about Mike Love, yet, he (VDP) valued (?) Mike's opinions of his lyrics so much that he got so upset and took his ball and went home.

Eh, I don't think Van Dyke could have done what Darian did. He was a fresh ear to bounce ideas off of, sure, but I do agree with the original post in that Brian became buried under all these pieces of music and he needed someone

I don't think it's all that fair to fault VDP for "taking the money and running." I recall him saying, at one point, that he felt his lyrics and involvement in Smile were not only causing problems for a band, but were causing problems for a family, something he didn't want to do.

Van Dyke Parks was "a fresh ear to bounce ideas off of"? Well, yeah, he was WRITING THE IDEAS! He was the collaborator! If anybody could've helped Brian fit the pieces together, it would've been Van Dyke Parks. While Parks' main role was lyricist, he also had abilities as a musician, arranger, and producer.

I must admit I never read the quote (although I'm not doubting it) that Van Dyke left because he was causing problems for a band and for a family. I never viewed his leaving as an altruistic gesture.

Everybody has their theories....When Brian and Van Dyke were working, they got things done - in a hurry. When Van Dyke left, things stopped getting done - in a hurry. Maybe if Van Dyke would've hung in there, he could've helped Brian  - in many ways -  to get the album finished. It's interesting how we are trying to find the reasons for SMiLE being scrapped, but the only two people who actually gave up on it, in its original conception, oddly enough - were Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks.

[Mr. Cohen]

The band had the wrong vibe, man. Smile was like a circle, man, like life, you know, Nietzche's "eternal recurrence", and the band were squares. How does a square fit with a circle? So, man, Brian couldn't do SMiLE. Not unless the band were circles, and that's the truth, as far out as it seems. Loren Schwartz told me.

[Dancing Bear]

Mike's opinion only mattered when Brian made it matter, building up a confrontation between him and Van Dyke. I don't think Brian was that frail and innocent. He knew exactly what he was doing. Sure, he didn't twist Mike's arm to make him whine about lyrics, and didn't force Van Dyke to answer in a snide way. But those were dudes were predictable.

Van Dyke's quote about leaving for the sake of family harmony is total bullshit in my opinion. Brian started to rerecord Heroes and Villains ad eternum and he didn't have anything to do. Unless he was given co-producing credits - impossible - what was his role in the project? Writing lyrics. H&V already had lyrics. Brian was trying to extract a single from hours of H&V, which he could never do. It's not a single. It's not the proper follow-up to Good Vibrations. It got better with the chorus nicked from Worms, but too little, too late. Someone should have told Brian: "hey, if you wanna a single, write one. It's not here in this album". Maybe he was told. Maybe he tried and couldn't, just like he couldn't for the last 42 years after Good Vibrations.

Where were we? Oh yeah. Smile. Was Brian was forced to abandon the project because of the circumstances? Hmm, I don't think so. But hey, almost no one believes Mike killed Smile anymore, with the exception of David Leaf. I shouldn't complain. 

[Dancing Bear]

When Van Dyke left, things stopped getting done - in a hurry. Maybe if Van Dyke would've hung in there, he could've helped Brian  - in many ways -  to get the album finished. It's interesting how we are trying to find the reasons for SMiLE being scrapped, but the only two people who actually gave up on it, in its original conception, oddly enough - were Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks.

Ok, I can't argue with the fact that when VD wasn't around anymore, things stagnated. BUT... What if he sensed the stagnation - and Brian's weird behaviour in cancelling sessions because of bad vibes - and decided to take care of his own business, his own projects?

Another thing - he didn't move to New York, Lybia or Moskow. He was in LA, and all Brian had to do was call him.

[Bicyclerider]

[And also Van Dyke did come back in April 67 to work on "Vegetables," that needs to be said. Anyone know more about that?

Van Dyke did NOT come back in April to work on Vegetables - he's not on any session sheets as participating in recording at that time.  In Priore's book van Dyke remembers working on Vegetables but it's the November "cornucopia" version he was at, not the April sessions.

[MBE]

Another thing needs to be said again is that Brian didn't really go into a major decline right after Smile. That's all bull crap, an easy excuse as to why the records weren't hitting like they were before. Various journalists and Beach Boys have used that because it's a simple out. Through the 1971 Surf's Up sessions Brian was there more then not, played the occasional show, and even kept writing and producing for other artists. I still contend Brian was more normal in 67-71 then anytime later. Carlin certainly paints it that way, and even Leaf does to an extent.

[Jay]

And just to say one more thing: Carl stated in IJWMFTT that he loved the lyrics, Alan told I think Goldmine (I never read the interview but Carlin mentioned it in Catch a Wave[ which I recently re-read) that he was a willing participant and only commented negatively on making pig noises; Dennis is widely credited as praising it and Bruce mentioned a few positive comments in Endless Harmony. So whenever anyone says that 'the group' was against SMiLE I kinda feel like raising an eyebrow.

I have a Beach Boys book where Al explicitly states that Cabin Essence should never have been released. I'm not exactly sure when he said it, but I remember it was a quote that was dated from the 1970's.

[MBE]

He said that in the Byron Priess book, but he said it shouldn't have been released on 20/20. He said it was something that needed to wait for it's own time. I guess he meant on a Smile comp.

[TdHabib]

[And also Van Dyke did come back in April 67 to work on "Vegetables," that needs to be said. Anyone know more about that?

Van Dyke did NOT come back in April to work on Vegetables - he's not on any session sheets as participating in recording at that time.  In Priore's book van Dyke remembers working on Vegetables but it's the November "cornucopia" version he was at, not the April sessions.

Thanks a bunch...sorry I was mistaken.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Ok, I can't argue with the fact that when VD wasn't around anymore, things stagnated. BUT... What if he sensed the stagnation - and Brian's weird behaviour in cancelling sessions because of bad vibes - and decided to take care of his own business, his own projects?

Another thing - he didn't move to New York, Lybia or Moskow. He was in LA, and all Brian had to do was call him.

In the 'Catch a Wave' book, VD is quoted as saying that he felt like all of the social things that were going on ( Vegetable arguments, staged arguments in the studio) were hurting the creative process. Also, he stayed far away from the Mrs. O'Leary's Cow sessions, didn't he? I think he sensed that there was something amiss in Brian's world.

VD has also made a point of saying that he owes Brian a lot-he was a guy at the time bouncing from session to session, never really given a chance to write lyrics for a major artist. Then Brian hears him talking, decides he wants him to write lyrics for the new album (which VD has said something like 'BB albums were a guaranteed number of sales') buys him a car, and tells him he will split half of the royalties with him (at least I'm pretty sure it was half). VD was at a point where money was hard to come by, and Brian appears and offers him a chance to make a lot of money. I'm sure that to this day, he still feels he owes Brian a lot.

[Sound of Free]

I no fan of Mike as a person, but I think the blame has to lie with Brian. As pointed out, Mike may have objected to the lyrics, but he did sing them. I think Mike was frustrated that Brian couldn't stay focused on finishing things, shifting from one song to another while finishing very little of anything.

Plus Brian did have lots of sycophants around, and maybe Mike felt that with Murry not around, somebody had to tell Brian to cut the merda, and that person was going to be him.

But again, I think a big problem is that Brian couldn't finish and kept changing things around. I think if Brian had ever said something like, "We're going to work every day this week on vocals and stay as long as we have so we can be done with the whole album by Friday and give it to Capitol," that Mike and the other guys would have been relieved and gladly sung Van Dyke's eccentric lyrics.

[Jason]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, it's The Newly-Repackaged, Spit-Shined, Vacuum-Packed, Bullshit-Ridden THREAD!!!!!!!!!