Mike Love and SMiLE (no, not what you think)

[A Million Units In Jan!]

This isn't the standard 'Blame Mike Love for SMiLE's non-release, the economy falling apart and everything else that's wrong with the world' post.

Look, I don't care for Mike Love. I think he's made it clear years ago that he puts money over everything else in his life. If he had any sense he'd wake up everyday and thank the Marahishi that he was born Brian Wilson's cousin, because if he didn't he'd be 'pumping gas somewhere', as the people love to say. I can't stand the guy.

However....

We know Mike's feelings about some of VDP's lyrics.  'Over and Over', and 'Columnated', yadda, yadda, yadda. You know what, though? The guy still sang them. Even if he didn't get them, he still did what he was supposed to do and sang them, and he sounds good. He refused to sing 'Hang On To Your Ego' until Brian changed the words.  If he was so disgusted by the lyrics in Cabinessence, why did he still sing them? If they bothered him so much, why didn't he put up more of a fight? I never got the impression that Mike deferred to Brian in anyway-it wasn't like he thought 'Oh, I better sing these so Brian doesn't get mad'.  And if he had been asked to help  sing the lyrics to Surf's Up, then I'm pretty sure he would have done those, based on the fact that he sang the Cabinessence lyrics that he hated so much.

I'm not saying that the truth is that Mike loved SMiLE. I believe that his ( and the BB's) questioning of a lot of the music was a factor in Brian beginning to question the music himself, but it wasn't the ultimate reason why it got shelved-it  just added to Brian's 'dissastifaction', if you will, of the music he was creating. You know, a lot of what we believe or want to believe is based on comments from people like Anderle, Vosse, VDP, Marilyn Wilson-people who adore Brian Wilson and believe the guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And there's nothing wrong with that. I just think that if you really look at the 'cold, hard' evidence that we have, it isn't as cut and dried as someone like Dominic Priore would have you believe. In reality, maybe there really was an undocumented meeting sometime where Mike sat down and told Brian 'I refuse to sing anymore of this drug BS'. I don't think there was, but there's always a chance (and a good one at that) of something like that happening. I don't believe that Mike Love is one of the main reasons that the album got shelved-I think that he just did his job, but was unhappy (and let Brian know) about it.

[MBE]

While I disagree with some of your overall sentiments about Mike, you pretty much summed up my take on the situation in 1966-67. Mike ultimately worked fairly hard on Smile. He may not have loved some of the lyrics (though he has praised Heroes and the music in general), but he did his job. I think what needs to be said again is that Brian's opinion held a lot of weight even into the early seventies. He ended Smile period, and even Domenic's latest book (Pop Surf Culture) admits theat the litigation between the Beach Boys and Capitol had more to do with Smile's demise then anything Mike did. If Mike had THAT much power Smiley would have never happened. It's weirder then Smile for one, and two Love again participated more or less fully. If anyone pulled back during Smile and Smiley it was Bruce. As early as 1975 he said Smile wouldn't have been a good idea. Of course Bruce had no say as to what went out before Bluebirds. 

[John]

I've said tons of times that Mike's objection with SMiLE was clearly not the songs, but the fact that the songs weren't being recorded quickly enough, because Brian is farting about making them grunt like swine. If SMiLE had come out, Mike would be fine. But eight months plus recording with no end in sight? ANYONE would be frustrated with that, especially when they used to record three albums a year. Plus their rivals are all stealing a march on them. THAT'S what Mike's beef was, I bet.

[variable2]

Whenever I hear the 'crow' line in Cabinessence I imagine Mike making a 'wacking off' gesture while singing it 

You have to keep in mind that for someone that has failing confidence (Brian), the opinions of other people, ESPECIALLY friends/family, matter an awful lot and affect you greatly.  While I'm sure Mike would have kept going with the project if Brian really pushed for it, his criticism probably came off hurtful to Brian, which added to the list of reasons he ultimately scrapped it.

[Wilsonista]

Variable: I agree. No one seems to realize that Brian was incapable of "not sweating the small stuff".

Mike hates SMiLE not because of the music or really the lyrics: he felt like he was being cut off from Brian personally and professionally. Hence why Mike would be in favor or the band-performed Smiley over SMILE.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Good points, John. I wanted to take slight exception to one, however, and add another one....

I think Mike did object to the songs, not all of them, but some of them. Early in the process, there had to be the moment when Brian played "Do You Like Worms" or "Fire" or even "Surf's Up", and Mike had to be thinking, "What the fu--" I'm not sure Mike "got" what Brian was doing artistically or musically, and, even more amazingly, I think he still doesn't "get" SMiLE. I say AMAZINGLY because Mike Love is a pretty sophisticated guy, but is he sophisticated musically?

I also think Mike was upset because he was bumped as lyricist/collaborator for a second straight album. Would Mike have objected to anyone's lyrics which weren't his - at that particular time? At the very time that Brian was beginning SMiLE, the No. 1 song in the country was "Good Vibrations, with lyrics from M.Love. The Beach Boys were huge in 1966, and Mike wanted more than just to sing on a few songs; he wanted a bigger part of the action. And, when he didn't get it, he spoke up.

[Shady]

IMO Mike was 0.08% of why SMiLE was put on hold.

[Cam Mott]

Actually recordings show Mike offering/lobbying to sing all of the lyrics of HOTYE when Al was stressing out over whether he [Al] was up to the job of singing his part of the song. HOTYE came out the way Brian wanted it to, as IKTAA.

As for the rest, I think Mike is given way too much blame and VDP is given way too little blame but in the end neither deserves any blame because Brian didn't care about and wasn't ultimately influenced by anyone's desires or opinions, he alone didn't want it that way and if he had wanted it, it would have come out that way despite anyone else's feelings or desires and in fact it did come out the way he wanted.

[Dancing Bear]

Mike was as capable of 'getting Smile' as anyone here. It's all very basic, Americana, the white man marching west etc. The guy's not a moron. He only had a different view about how pop lyrics should sound. The way Van Dyke describes how Mike's lyrics are all about making out in the back seat of a car carries as much prejudice as the VDP weirdo character in American family. 

Something was going on inside the Beach Boys microsociety in 1966, that I can't put into words. Otherwise I'd write a book.    Brian wanted to distance himself from what the Beach Boys represented. He wanted to appeal to another audience. Mike was cut off the creative process. But then, why did he let Mike write lyrics for Good Vibrations, the most commercial track he had done that year, by miles?

I don't think Smiley Smile was all about the band taking charge. First, instead of the wrecking crew you had Brian overdubbing everything, with the exception of about three tracks where Carl added some guitar and ukelele (?). Did Dennis play bongos or keyboards? probably not. The exceptions are 'She's Going Bald' and 'Getting Hungry', where the others have more say about what was going on, thus the 'Produced by the Beach Boys'credit. Second, the vast majority of Smiley Smile was never performed live, and it didn't happen because it bombed at the charts. Wild Honey bombed too and you have most of it on late '67 setlists. No way in hell Carl and Mike were listening to 'Little Pad' and thinking, "hmm, this one will sound great on stage".

Then, why was Smiley Smile released, and Smile wasn't? The former was finished, the latter wasn't. Sometimes answers ARE simple.

[Sheriff John Stone]

As for the rest, I think Mike is given way too much blame and VDP is given way too little blame but in the end neither deserves any blame because Brian didn't care about and wasn't ultimately influenced by anyone's desires or opinions, he alone didn't want it that way and if he had wanted it, it would have come out that way despite anyone else's feelings or desires and in fact it did come out the way he wanted.

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

[John]

Then, why was Smiley Smile released, and Smile wasn't? The former was finished, the latter wasn't. Sometimes answers ARE simple.

Right. And that shows that Mike wasn't a factor. As long as it's done, Mike doesn't mind. Mike is just Brian's necessary bogeyman these days, like Murry was. It's like all the BS about Pet Sounds - Mike has said forever that he dug it, but the story always is that he hated it. Badman even tries to claim that Mike hated the second side of Today! Mike vs. progression does not hold true to me.

The thing about Mike being pushed out is another good one - the guy (and I'm no huge fan of him and the attitue he projects) was humble enough that he sat there throughout Pet Sounds and the SMiLE sessions, as the non-instrument playing singer, and saw next-to-no vocals coming his way. There's some element of good grace there. I know I'd be pissed if I were minimized in that way.

[Wilsonista]

Then, why was Smiley Smile released, and Smile wasn't? The former was finished, the latter wasn't. Sometimes answers ARE simple.

The thing about Mike being pushed out is another good one - the guy (and I'm no huge fan of him and the attitue he projects) was humble enough that he sat there throughout Pet Sounds and the SMiLE sessions, as the non-instrument playing singer, and saw next-to-no vocals coming his way. There's some element of good grace there. I know I'd be pissed if I were minimized in that way.

I'm not convinced that Mike wasn't pissed at being minimized.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

Yeah, and that sort of goes back to something else that someone posted where Brian agrees with the interviewer with 'Yes' or 'No' answers. For twenty years, Brian said the music was 'inappropriate', 'I was drugged out', or whatever the excuses. Never that I remember did he call any one specific person out. Then, all of a sudden at the moment that the album finally comes out and there's a big buildup for it, he says what people have been wanting him to say all along, that 'Mike didn't like it'. Really?

And, I do kind of think VDP comes off at being overly critical. I know that he has hurt feelings over the  whole thing still, I mean who wants to be told by someone that their lyrics are nonsense? However, how many times has Mike Love come out and said 'You know, Van Dyke Parks is an idiot. He's an asshat, and I don't like him'. Not as many times as VDP has gone out of his way to talk bad about Mike. Although the portrayal of VD in the Beach Boys movie a few years back was a bit over the top.

And as far as Smiley Smile goes, there's an interview of Mike by Derek Taylor-it's on page 140 of LLVS:

DT: How about the album?
ML: We are finishing it now. We knew the title and the  songs months ago. Only Brian played the tapes again a few times and found it necessary to skip some songs. That's what happened. Capitol finished the sleeve in April already. I don't know how many sleeves they can throw out now, just because the lineup of songs and some songs have changed completely'.

Which kind of lends credence to the thought process that SMiLE and Smiley Smile are the the same album-there really wasn't this whole idea of 'SMiLE is one album and Smiley is another one'. They're both one in the same, although created entirely differently. And there's no way that anyone could think SS is more commercial than SMiLE. Remember, Mike is a businessman. It couldn't seem like good business to talk about 'thowing out' record sleeves, or waiting any longer than necessary to get product out.

[MBE]

As for the rest, I think Mike is given way too much blame and VDP is given way too little blame but in the end neither deserves any blame because Brian didn't care about and wasn't ultimately influenced by anyone's desires or opinions, he alone didn't want it that way and if he had wanted it, it would have come out that way despite anyone else's feelings or desires and in fact it did come out the way he wanted.

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

It was in the script....
Seriously I think Brian has been told that so he thinks it.
As far as Badman goes he got that from Brian's dubious book. Never ever has Mike said anything really bad about Today or even about Pet Sounds. Here is a quote that is the only question I ever heard him raise about Today. It again shows he was willing to conform to Brian's ideas even if he didn't quite get them.

From the Beach Boys Today album you co-wrote a beautiful song with Brian called "Please Let Me Wonder."

I remember wondering about the title. Not relating to the title so great but writing the verses.
That's it, it hardly equates to Mike hating the side.

[MBE]

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

I do kind of think VDP comes off at being overly critical. I know that he has hurt feelings over the  whole thing still, I mean who wants to be told by someone that their lyrics are nonsense? However, how many times has Mike Love come out and said 'You know, Van Dyke Parks is an idiot. He's an asshat, and I don't like him'.

In fact Mike went out of his way to say nice things about him personally. I still don't get why An American Family is seen as making him look bad. He's not Brian's pusher, the lines (even if taken from later statements) are often his, and he was part of the whole scene. In fact I thought he came off as damn funny in it. In the Smile scene Mike is seen belittling him so why is it Van Dyke that looks bad? Don't get me wrong AAF is bad in many ways but I don't see the problem in this case.

[Wilsonista]

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

I do kind of think VDP comes off at being overly critical. I know that he has hurt feelings over the  whole thing still, I mean who wants to be told by someone that their lyrics are nonsense? However, how many times has Mike Love come out and said 'You know, Van Dyke Parks is an idiot. He's an asshat, and I don't like him'.

In fact Mike went out of his way to say nice things about him personally. I still don't get why An American Family is seen as making him look bad. He's not Brian's pusher, the lines (even if taken from later statements) are often his, and he was part of the whole scene. In fact I thought he came off as damn funny in it. In the Smile scene Mike is seen belittling him so why is it Van Dyke that looks bad? Don't get me wrong AAF is bad in many ways but I don't see the problem in this case.

That's probably something that Van would have to be asked. Perhaps he felt like the character was nothing but a one-dimensional caricature. The first scene where Van appears, the dialogue is colorful in a Parksian way which is good. The next line in the scene, however has "Tommy Shaffer" saying  with a laugh "I'm stoned and I don't understand what he's saying". It kind of makes Van look like a supprting character in a Cheech and Chong movie. All of which is to set up the Posse and by extension the 60's counter culture as nothing more but drug addled idiots. For some one like Parks who WAS sincere about 60's idealism, I can totally understand why he would have been greatly upset by that portrayal. At one time he thought the BB were  the perfect platform for the ideas of SMiLE,, so to him seeing them arm to arm with Reagan and Bush had to have been disheartening.

[TdHabib]

I don't want to put myself on the anti-Mike side or the pro-Mike side, but one thing I'd like to chime in with...I'm not a regular reader of their magazine but in 2004 Mike was interviewed by MOJO in which he said he was not really opposed to Smile, said that he liked and respected VDP's work, but again the non-commercial thing and that he didn't mind the music. Van Dyke wrote in to MOJO in a bit of a protest, calling his statements "revisionism" and said unequivocally that Mike's hostility to said album was indeed the main reason it shelved. I don't think that Mike responded, but I'm not sure.

One thing that I'm sure about with SMiLE is that nothing is black or white. NOTHING.

And just to say one more thing: Carl stated in IJWMFTT that he loved the lyrics, Alan told I think Goldmine (I never read the interview but Carlin mentioned it in Catch a Wave[ which I recently re-read) that he was a willing participant and only commented negatively on making pig noises; Dennis is widely credited as praising it and Bruce mentioned a few positive comments in Endless Harmony. So whenever anyone says that 'the group' was against SMiLE I kinda feel like raising an eyebrow.

[Dancing Bear]

And just to say one more thing: Carl stated in IJWMFTT that he loved the lyrics, Alan told I think Goldmine (I never read the interview but Carlin mentioned it in Catch a Wave[ which I recently re-read) that he was a willing participant and only commented negatively on making pig noises; Dennis is widely credited as praising it and Bruce mentioned a few positive comments in Endless Harmony. So whenever anyone says that 'the group' was against SMiLE I kinda feel like raising an eyebrow.

When Brian was giving lots of interviews to promote the release of BWPS, Mike, Carl and Dennis were named as those who 'hated Smile'or 'were against it'. I don't remember about Bruce, but Al was spared of Brian's wrath. So were Blondie, Ricky and David. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah, I was all like WTF?! Dennis was Brian's biggest supporter back then.

Bad day for Brian, I guess.

[MBE]

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

I do kind of think VDP comes off at being overly critical. I know that he has hurt feelings over the  whole thing still, I mean who wants to be told by someone that their lyrics are nonsense? However, how many times has Mike Love come out and said 'You know, Van Dyke Parks is an idiot. He's an asshat, and I don't like him'.

In fact Mike went out of his way to say nice things about him personally. I still don't get why An American Family is seen as making him look bad. He's not Brian's pusher, the lines (even if taken from later statements) are often his, and he was part of the whole scene. In fact I thought he came off as damn funny in it. In the Smile scene Mike is seen belittling him so why is it Van Dyke that looks bad? Don't get me wrong AAF is bad in many ways but I don't see the problem in this case.

That's probably something that Van would have to be asked. Perhaps he felt like the character was nothing but a one-dimensional caricature. The first scene where Van appears, the dialogue is colorful in a Parksian way which is good. The next line in the scene, however has "Tommy Shaffer" saying  with a laugh "I'm stoned and I don't understand what he's saying". It kind of makes Van look like a supprting character in a Cheech and Chong movie. All of which is to set up the Posse and by extension the 60's counter culture as nothing more but drug addled idiots. For some one like Parks who WAS sincere about 60's idealism, I can totally understand why he would have been greatly upset by that portrayal. At one time he thought the BB were  the perfect platform for the ideas of SMiLE,, so to him seeing them arm to arm with Reagan and Bush had to have been disheartening.

Well from what I have seen of Loren Dargo he was a Cheech and Chong character.  Maybe Van does have idealism, but it's that nasty letter to Mojo that TdHabib mentioned that made me change my mind about him. I respect his work but I think he comes off snide. Look even at the 1971 Rolling Stone interview. In it he's kind of putting Brian down, he seemed kind of bitter even then. Tony Asher was if anything worse if his quotes were accurite in the 1975 Nick Kent article and the Gaines book.,I like his work even more, but that doesn't mean he respected Brian as a person, and Marilyn mentioned him as someone she didn't like around. I'm not saying the Beach Boys were always the most understanding people either, but I think there was love there, and they were with him through the whole thing. 
As far as politics that's their choice either way. I mean if we want to talk about that let me point out Mike in 1992 said he wasn't voting for Bush because he didn't agree with his ecological policy. Brian said he voted for McCain this year, but should it really matter? It doesn't to me.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

In the Anderle/Williams interview, Anderle says that of all the BB's, and I think that includes Brian too, Mike was the one who understood what he (Anderle) was trying to do the most, as far as the business side of things.

One thing from the aforementioned article that sticks out to me is Anderle's assertion that the BB's had a kind of humor that not everyone would think is cool-I can't remember the exact words, but it seems like it was something along the lines of how they had a kind of 'high school humor', and that's what you hear on Smiley.  I can't help think sometimes that Anderle, VDP, etc. sort of thought of themselves as the 'cool kids', and the BB's were the 'losers'. That may be extreme, at least on Anderle's part because he has praised the other guys in the band before. You get the idea, though. Those guys were part of a circle of people that were considered 'hip', and the BB's were 'square'. And I think that to this day, VDP still feels that way a little bit.

I've often thought that the reason VDP has been so upset with Mike all these years wasn't because of 1 or 2 comments about lyrics. I thought (assumed) that there was a number of things that went on that piled up, causing VD to have all this agression towards ML. However, could it be that all this time VD has been pissed because of a couple of comments about his lyrics? At that time, he was a young kid who everyone was talking about in terms of 'cool, hip, etc'.  To have someone all of a sudden question some of the things you're writing can be a blow to your ego. For all we know Mike could have questioned him in front of a bunch of people, embarassing VD so much that to this day he still feels embarassed about it. I don't know, they more I look at it, VD seems to be drinking wine made from sour grapes.

And another thing-I don't buy this VDP thing about The Beatles stealing ideas from SMiLE. Maybe they heard the tracks, but to sort of throw this idea out there that they heard the tracks and that gave them these ideas that they used on Sgt Pepper seems kind of a stretch, especially when it seems to be they would give Brian credit. The Beatles weren't angels, but as far as saying who their influences were and where they got ideas from, they've always been pretty honest about that-at least,  I think they have.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Losers?  Like running into a toilet and exclaiming they've never seen a turd that big (Mike)?  Like walking up to people and farting (Brian)?  And I think you're right about VDP.  Depending on the interview, he can be quite dismissive of pre-SMiLE stuff.  I'm paraphrasing wildly but he has - on occasion - said it's all doo-wah-diddy stuff. There is an element of seeing Brian as a uniquely talented but malleable 'project' by a less talented but intellectually hip bunch of people. And Brian, as he so often does, fell for it.  And when the going got tough, they all jumped ship, leaving our boy like, uh, a cork on the ocean.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Wow, a full-blown SMiLE thread to end/begin the year!

I'm not piling on Van Dyke Parks (although his interviews always bother me), but I need clarification on something. I thought I read somewhere (David Leaf's book?) that one of the main - if not THE main - reasons Parks left Brian/SMiLE was because he (Parks) signed a contract for a solo album and left to start that project. Does anybody have a timeline on that signing/recording?

[Wilsonista]

I hate to say this because it reflects more poorly on Brian than it does on Mike, but...

Brian sold Van Dyke out. Brian was the one who called Van to try and "explain" lyrics to Mike. Brian knew Mike would have a sh*t fit and (whether he knew it or not) basically set Van up to be humiliated. Like a lot of people who have been ousted from the group's inner circle, it shouldn't  come as a shock that Van would have some bitterness about the experience.

[Dancing Bear]

One thing from the aforementioned article that sticks out to me is Anderle's assertion that the BB's had a kind of humor that not everyone would think is cool-I can't remember the exact words, but it seems like it was something along the lines of how they had a kind of 'high school humor', and that's what you hear on Smiley.  I can't help think sometimes that Anderle, VDP, etc. sort of thought of themselves as the 'cool kids', and the BB's were the 'losers'. That may be extreme, at least on Anderle's part because he has praised the other guys in the band before. You get the idea, though. Those guys were part of a circle of people that were considered 'hip', and the BB's were 'square'. And I think that to this day, VDP still feels that way a little bit.

I think Brian first thought he should be hipper, and then he hired/aproached Anderle, Van Dyke, Vosse, Loren etc.

I've often thought that the reason VDP has been so upset with Mike all these years wasn't because of 1 or 2 comments about lyrics. I thought (assumed) that there was a number of things that went on that piled up, causing VD to have all this agression towards ML. However, could it be that all this time VD has been pissed because of a couple of comments about his lyrics? At that time, he was a young kid who everyone was talking about in terms of 'cool, hip, etc'.  To have someone all of a sudden question some of the things you're writing can be a blow to your ego. For all we know Mike could have questioned him in front of a bunch of people, embarassing VD so much that to this day he still feels embarassed about it. I don't know, they more I look at it, VD seems to be drinking wine made from sour grapes.

I think that if Van Dyke had been a successful solo artist, the Smile demise would bother him a lot less.

And another thing-I don't buy this VDP thing about The Beatles stealing ideas from SMiLE. Maybe they heard the tracks, but to sort of throw this idea out there that they heard the tracks and that gave them these ideas that they used on Sgt Pepper seems kind of a stretch, especially when it seems to be they would give Brian credit. The Beatles weren't angels, but as far as saying who their influences were and where they got ideas from, they've always been pretty honest about that-at least,  I think they have.

Those Beatles quotes by Van Dyke are just nuts. Embarassing. They are his Hall of Fame speech.  

I'm not piling on Van Dyke Parks (although his interviews always bother me), but I need clarification on something. I thought I read somewhere (David Leaf's book?) that one of the main - if not THE main - reasons Parks left Brian/SMiLE was because he (Parks) signed a contract for a solo album and left to start that project. Does anybody have a timeline on that signing/recording?

I think it's very clear that Van Dyke just couldn't sit around doing nothing till Brian finished the album. Was he rewriting lyrics frenzly in 1967? By the way, I don't blame Van Dyke for betting on a solo career. If Brian needed a new lyric, he could just call him and it would be done. Easily. van Dyke didn't need to be on hold 24/7 to have the project finished. The 'abscence' of VD hurting Smile is just more bullmerda from Brian IMO.