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« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2009, 08:17:51 AM »

I don't want to belabor this, but it's my nature, so I will.  Wink If the question is "was Brian mentally ill before the 70s/Landy?" it seems to me that the reasons not have nothing to do with the question.
I too enjoy belaboring this, as well as trying to make myself clear, which is generally hopeless, but still...
To say BW was mentally ill because he had some sort of breakdown just doesn't jive with me. The auditory hallucinations thing I always thought started later, though Brian claims they were in the 60's (and he would know, except he doesn't always actually seem to remember things correctly, so maybe he wouldn't). Maybe I simply do not understand the definition of mental illness. Oh yeah, there isn't one. Obviously what I think is VERY irrelevent since I have no credentials other than being a fellow human, but BW's 'problems' seem like they were minor and manageable until Murry died and only then, with the help of lots of drugs did he begin to lose control of himself. But really, i don't know squat and will happily admit that this version of events is strictly my personal fantasy. Happy new year folks!

Yes it's true you don't understand the definition of mental illness - and yes, there is one - in fact more than one - an entire spectrum of mental illnesses including schizoaffective disorder, depression, manic-depressive disorder, schizophrenia, and many more, all with REAL definitions and most with treatments that have been scientifically evaluated for effectiveness.  I suspect Marilyn, Carnie and Wendy, Van Dyke, and others would disagree that BW's problems in the 60's and early 70's were "minor" ("convince me I'm not insane Van" anyone?), and Desper himself has said that in 1969-1971 Brian was in a bad way.  So yeah, you can of course think what you want but it seems the "evidence" indicates that your fantasy of events is just that.
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« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2009, 01:33:16 PM »

What of the stories about Brian gaining weight and smoking again in the 92-95 period?

He had started gaining weight again around 1991, even before Landy left the scene. As far as smoking goes, I would venture to guess that started up again around the same time, although apparently he was still smoking weed during the Landy years and  (I think) gave that up for good after Landy left. He quit smoking cigs in 1994.

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« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2009, 05:33:41 PM »

What of the stories about Brian gaining weight and smoking again in the 92-95 period?
I don't want to belabor this, but it's my nature, so I will.  Wink If the question is "was Brian mentally ill before the 70s/Landy?" it seems to me that the reasons not have nothing to do with the question.
I too enjoy belaboring this, as well as trying to make myself clear, which is generally hopeless, but still...
To say BW was mentally ill because he had some sort of breakdown just doesn't jive with me. The auditory hallucinations thing I always thought started later, though Brian claims they were in the 60's (and he would know, except he doesn't always actually seem to remember things correctly, so maybe he wouldn't). Maybe I simply do not understand the definition of mental illness. Oh yeah, there isn't one. Obviously what I think is VERY irrelevent since I have no credentials other than being a fellow human, but BW's 'problems' seem like they were minor and manageable until Murry died and only then, with the help of lots of drugs did he begin to lose control of himself. But really, i don't know squat and will happily admit that this version of events is strictly my personal fantasy. Happy new year folks!

Yes it's true you don't understand the definition of mental illness - and yes, there is one - in fact more than one - an entire spectrum of mental illnesses including schizoaffective disorder, depression, manic-depressive disorder, schizophrenia, and many more, all with REAL definitions and most with treatments that have been scientifically evaluated for effectiveness.  I suspect Marilyn, Carnie and Wendy, Van Dyke, and others would disagree that BW's problems in the 60's and early 70's were "minor" ("convince me I'm not insane Van" anyone?), and Desper himself has said that in 1969-1971 Brian was in a bad way.  So yeah, you can of course think what you want but it seems the "evidence" indicates that your fantasy of events is just that.

Oh? Check this wild ride out!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu-H1m0dG6w
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« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2009, 05:39:31 PM »

Shouldn't Tom Cruise be in that video clip? "You're glib."
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« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2009, 05:44:59 PM »

LOL. The person who posted that clip also posted ones about the polar ice caps growing (not melting), 9/11 conspiracy theories, some kind of magic fire at a church and the "Holocaust fraud exposed." Yeah, it all sounds legit. I'd believe anything that person said: strictly on the level.  LOL
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« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2009, 06:12:04 PM »

LOL. The person who posted that clip also posted ones about the polar ice caps growing (not melting), 9/11 conspiracy theories, some kind of magic fire at a church and the "Holocaust fraud exposed." Yeah, it all sounds legit. I'd believe anything that person said: strictly on the level.  LOL

He seems like the most confused person ever as he has videos that speak badly of Clinton AND Bush Sr.

I wager $100 this was the guy who got picked last in Dodgeball.  LOL
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« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2009, 06:15:53 PM »

I think he's just a sucker for a good conspiracy theory. EVERYBODY IS OUT TO GET US!
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« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2009, 07:04:25 PM »

I think he's just a sucker for a good conspiracy theory. EVERYBODY IS OUT TO GET US!

It's the mind gangsters from Spector.

Clearly the body of evidence would suggest that Brian has suffered will mental health issues almost all of his adult life.  That's not all that unique among especially creative people.  It's interesting that Murry also clearly had issues and like many health problems, depression, bipolar d/o, etc. have a tendency to run in families.  Add the screwed up family to the mix as well.

One point....no one can really diagnose based upon observations of a public figure from a distance nor can they claim "all is well".  This is an issue between the patient and their physician.

Landy clearly saved Brian's life at one point...then clearly abused his position of authority given the intoxication of money and fame.  The brain damage issue is a bit dicey.  Brian looks like an older guy on psych-meds to my eyes.  I'm not sure what Landy gave him legally that would have damaged his brain.  Certainly massive quantities of cocaine didn't do his neurons any good.  Anyone know if Brian ever over-dosed and went without oxygen even for a short period? 
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« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2009, 07:25:27 PM »

How about the reports of Brian still driving? I had heard years ago that he doesn't drive anymore. However there was teh account of him driving himself to teh hospital in the Smile sessions era (2004?) and a feature on hime that had him driving a reporter around.
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2009, 08:46:22 PM »

Yep. He still drives, although for a few years he didn't.

Quote
Brian looks like an older guy on psych-meds to my eyes.  I'm not sure what Landy gave him legally that would have damaged his brain.

In addition to the meds Brian was given by Landy for "theraputic reasons", Brian was also abusing Xanax at the time, apparently by choice.
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2009, 09:36:22 PM »

I have already said so much on this subject. But suffice to say that when the therapist believes that there is something he is controlling and directing that is changing the client, he has lost his therapeutic alliance, and potentially is deluded that what he is doing IS changing the client. In my opinion, clients change when they are ready to change and feel safe enough to do so. Brian took more rlsks after Landy in terms of personal and musical risks than he ever did when Landy was there. I credit Landy with confining Brian enough to keep him from using  cocaine into oblivion in the mid 80s. He clearly helped in this regard.
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2009, 09:49:58 PM »

Good to see you online, Peter. Hope all has been well with you.

I think it goes without saying that you too were instrumental in saving Brian. Everything I've ever heard or read has confirmed what a good friend you have been to Brian. I think all of us here owe you a huge debt of gratitude, as does Brian himself.
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2009, 09:54:46 PM »

I'd substitute 'instrumental' for 'critical'.
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2009, 10:10:07 PM »

Ah, that's the word I was looking for, thanks!
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2009, 10:13:51 PM »

Good to see you online, Peter. Hope all has been well with you.

I think it goes without saying that you too were instrumental in saving Brian. Everything I've ever heard or read has confirmed what a good friend you have been to Brian. I think all of us here owe you a huge debt of gratitude, as does Brian himself.
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2009, 10:16:41 PM »

And of course there are photos of Debbie in Nick Kent's disturbing - but sadly entirely accurate - 1980 interview/portrait with Brian in the NME.
I've never heard of this. Care to elaborate?
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2009, 10:27:05 PM »

I've only read the article that was republished in The Dark stuff. Was it the same one? If it was, then not everything was 100% accurate, as it also claimed that Mike Love &  Al Jardine weren't on Love You! One thing about the story that always cracked me up was the "Jacuzzi? JACUZZI?!" part. I know it's not supposed to be funny, but for some reason it was to me.
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2009, 10:37:37 PM »

I talked to Debbie about the article and she says it's utter bull. Brian eating cigarette ash, him not knowing her name etc. She says Kent was a herion addict who trashed people that kindly helped him get access to Brian. BTW she is a very smart person not an airhead at all like he tried to make her out to be.
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« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2009, 03:42:33 AM »

...and a very fine New Year to all of you too!

The mental illness(es) of Brian Douglas Wilson are one of the most attractive, nay addictive, issues in all of pop music's chequered history. The reasons are not that obscure - the concept of the mad genius artist is an evergreen; and relaying a Brian Wilson story is much more rewarding than phoning someone and saying him/her that Bruce Springsteen just mowed his lawn. And it is simply an oft-tested and proven hypothesis that the most sensitive and creative minds are so frequently also the most sensitive and vulnerable. I would conjecture that this is in part due to a type of intelligence in the extreme: one's brain is able to run through countless different calculating imaginative 'runs' as to what the outcome of any strategy in one's chosen line of work would be in reality; and only those who do have this blessing in terms of 'fantasizing a potential outcome' have such seemingly limitless powers to actually realize one (i.e. the best possible) of many paths in music, painting, writing, and so on, within an acceptable space of time (this latter condition is essential). A comparison with the best of sportspersons is not far-fetched, because brilliant soccer or tennis players don't rely on only their superb reflexes (which is what many people think). They have the queer ability to 'calculate in' all factors involved within microseconds (weather, state of the ground, their own physical condition, the necessary spin, the mental state of the opponent(s), and so on) and to act or react rightly more than most of their adversaries.

I'd say that Brian no doubt is gifted with these capacities in the extreme. His ability to fantasize must be hard or impossible to grasp for us lesser mortals. And there must be a quaint and very rich way he stores musical memories, recombines them in his mind to form new possibilities.

But it all has a potential downside. People like him are vulnerable in the extreme to traumatic life events (TLE's, as they are now mostly called). We know for a couple of years now that with a certain genetic makeup, and with the bad fortune of having to undergo a limited number of very unsettling events in a certain span of one's life, the proneness to depression and various neuroses (anxiety disorders) sharply rises.

I am sure any child psychiatrist would tell you that even if only ten percent of Murry's 'educational efforts' that are doing the rounds really happened, Brian would firmly have been a prime candidate to experience what he actually did undergo. Which all sounds like ancient Greek drama, and it is. His life story was more or less determined when he was born. I don't find the stories about him feeling hounded by Spector all that absurd; fragile people with prodigious talent often have trouble to check reality when they are under great pressure. In his case, it may well have been a deep feeling of not being acknowledged, not as a human being, nor in the sense that he was allowed to realize his utmost best ideas - instead, he might have felt like being reduced to a productive thing that brought in money, and like being chained so that he only was praised when he delivered all those hits, much less so when he tried for other things.

The famous 'Firehats'-myth is a prime example of what psychiatrists call 'thought-action fusion', a type of magic-thinking that makes the subject believe that mental, harmless processes in him cause terrible events on an entirely different spot. Again, this demonstrates the inability to do a brief 'reality-check'.  A much more recent example is the story of a girl that was treated in 2002 because she had developed a strict belief that she herself had brought on the events of 9/11 merely by thinking about them beforehand. Now, in children these beliefs are usually seen as fairly normal in the developmental sense (but this girl harboured them extremely). But in adults they are seen as a psychiatric problem. It may be surprising for some that actually 9 out of 10 people have such delusions; but they have them only very transiently and are able to dismiss them as nonsense almost the second they pop up. With Brian, no doubt, the situation was different, no doubt.

From what I know, Brian did not come into the world as a psychotic person. But I am convinced that his father killed off his eldest son's fragile mental stability and turned it into extreme lability, and actually installed so much fear and anxiety in him that Brian developed symptoms of what one also sees in post-traumatic stress disorders (PTSD) - delusions, panic attacks, and self-medication by way of substance abuse.

All of which is not to say that Carl and Dennis were not abused. In part they experienced in their adulthoods what Brian went through too. And they too had their substance abuse problems. But Brian is that special case, where so much that could work to his benefit actually began to work against him when his depression became florid - and that includes weird fantasies which he could not identify as being figments of the imagination anymore.

It is a matter of a delicate balance having been tipped the wrong way; the technical side of it is that an enormously complicated system of neurotransmission got disrupted, and various brain areas got implicated too. But that does not detract from the human side of it at all: the story of a gifted artist and his depressive illnesses.
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« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2009, 12:29:34 PM »

I have to say all I can say about Brian's health is what I hear in his music and what I've read or seen in interviews and a couple of books. But yeah, it is interesting.

Up to the end of the 80s I remember thinking of Brian as your archetypal '60s casualty. I think there was an article in a newspaper's weekend magazine when his autobiography came out, which fully illustrated the weirdness of it all. It was obvious from this that his problems ran deeper than the occassional flashback. One of his problems at the time was Landy. But I don't think any one person should carry the can for what has happened to Brian. Perhaps wrongly, I believe parts of his autobiography. Brian went through periods of not wanting to be alive, riddled with self-hatred and doubt.

From the mid-60s onwards, there's some undertones in his music which are dark. Not his lyrics, necessarily. Take something like Do It Again as 45 single, play as a 33. Death chords. Speed them up and they turn manic. That's summer 'n surf. Ditto Breakaway which sounds like a perfect pop song warped by having been left in the sun in the back of a car. Brian's state of mind is in his music, somewhere. Controlled hysteria. At one point he wasn't able to get back to where he had felt most comfortable, writing hit pop songs with ease and filling up an album like Summer Days. Moving away from his comfort zone into a world of kids and contracts. Murry died, closing another door to the past. Brian wasn't really a rock'n'roll star and his career was lost. Like many people he bases his self-esteem on his career. Unlike many people he had access to the strongest drugs in 70s Hollywood.

By '77 he was frazzled. Landy did physically repair him and in this aspect his therapy can be considered a success. But Brian at this stage could not be patched up like a boat and sent off to sea. From what I see, by 1973/74 he needed everyday help and the patience of everyone around him. From a medical point of view, if he'd have been an everyday Joe, he would have spent the rest of the 1970s and perhaps the 1980s in hospital.
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« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2009, 01:09:20 AM »

'Will the Landy-cane cow be
butchered to death with his brother?'

(freely mis-quoted from the Candy Face Lane-poem by Stephen Kalinich - 1969)
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« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2009, 09:58:32 PM »

Brian's breakdown on the plane in 64 or 65 (whenever it was) isn't a sign he was mentally ill? I wonder if your understanding of a mental illness requires it to be incapacitating to qualify. There are plenty of people going to work every day and functioning perfectly well with mental illnesses. Doesn't mean they don't have the problems. I'd say if you get to the point of breakdowns, you're mentally ill. That's safe to say.
I think being stressed out about being responsible for your entire family's fortunes and being unsure whether you can continue to pull it off, along with feeling lonely and missing your sweetie, can make just about anyone crack up. That goes double if you are a very sensitive 21 year old. I know it's fashionable to push prozac on anyone these days and say they are 'mentally ill'. Show me someone who is NOT mentally ill according to your definitions. I guess you've never had a breakdown, or a feeling of hopelessness. Yes, Brian's breakdown happened in public. That sucks, but doesn't qualify as mentally ill.

Hello! This is my first post here... and I must say... a nervous breakdown IS a sign of mental illness. I am 22 years old, and I've had like three or four in the past five years.

Anxiety happens months or years before a nervous breakdown... Brian's worrying about things such as if he music will make it, and wanting to continue to do music only in the studio earlier on yet still touring, are signs.

After a nervous breakdown, well, at least in my case, and Brian's... the anxiety seems to never go away. It's chronic anxiety, sort of like a panic attack that lasts all day and night, when most panic attacks seem to last 5 - 15 minutes or so.

I was diagnosed with anxiety a long time ago, but my first nervous breakdown happened in early 2006 after an argument with my Dad. Trust me, a nervous breakdown changes everything in one's life. From like June to September, I stayed in my room and would piss in cups due to the fear of leaving my room. It's frightening.

When a nervous breakdown happens, it lasts for a little while, if it lasts for a day, the next day, while you aren't having a nervous breakdown, you'll feel weird, de-realization (a dream like state), and sort of hung over, while not having a clue why. It'll lead to panic attacks and you'll become withdrawn, etc.

God it's horrible.
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« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2009, 10:13:50 PM »

I'm with Dada and Luther that while Brian showed signs of mental illness beforehand, Landy left him mentally damaged the second time around.  As Sheriff John Stone points out, there was just something so different about Brian after '82.  In interviews not too long before that time, when Brian was at his worst - like the Les Chan interview - Brian is lucid (I agree, MBE), consistent, and sometimes even funny (in a good way).

But in interviews from '83 through the next decade or so, Brian seems like he's rattling off coached lines or his answers are just awkward.  He sounds like he's saying what Landy has programmed him to say or parroting Landy catchphrases - not so much what he really thinks and feels.  He seems better today, but the change is still there.  For the longest time after '82 it seemed almost like an Invasion of the Body Snatchers kind of thing, and the real Brian would only peek through in the music or in rare interview moments.

Once someone gets on medications for those kinds of things, they usually always become a different person. \
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« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2009, 10:55:57 AM »

I worry a lot, and have been known to piss into a cup from time to time. What medication should I be on?
Seriously, though - sorry for your brain troubles. I hope you've got em sorted.

Since ~1990, there have been decent medications that can enable someone like Brian to live a normal life. It's still important to remember that Psychiatry is an inexact science.

Wasn't Brian obsessing over Phil Spector's "Mind Gangsters" and having conversations in the middle of the swimming pool, as to avoid being wiretapped, in the mid-1960's? I know he was hearing voices in the 1960s as well. That is severe psychosis.

There is a pattern of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder blossoming in the early 20's and getting progressively worse as a person ages. Brian fits this pattern to a "T," and while I think that LSD and Hash are wrongly blamed for his mental problems in some peoples' narratives, they are mind-altering drugs which can trigger a breakdown in a mentally vulnerable person.

Interestingly, however, recent research has shown that certain disorders (such as schizophrenia) become more mild at around age 60. Perhaps this explains Brian's recent productivity and self-assuredness at times. .

Brian Wilson is able to drive a car, and yet some of you assume that he is unable to shop for groceries or clean the house? It seems like they've stabilized him to a pretty good point if he can drive a car, after being so publicly stigmatized for his mental illness.

While his brain chemistry was unquestionably changed by his experience with Landy, I think his hollow-eyed look today is perhaps also a function of not wanting to deal with reporters' bull s h i t. It's easy to see how when he is being interviewed and he gets lobbed the same softball questions, i.e. "Are you feeling better these days?" or "Tell us about your experiences with your father," he doesn't want to answer, and he manipulates the interviewer by giving nonsequiter answers, or, more commonly, he tells them what they want to hear, even leading him to contradict himself within a ten minute interview several times.

You can see when he has an interviewer, or a crowd, that he finds sympathetic enough, or the "vibes" are right, or he is having a good day, he is miles and miles beyond his Landy-Era self in terms of lucidity. I have also seen him on bad days, when, I suppose, he is hearing voices - those of Danny Hutton and Murray.

- b00ts

P.S. I took a few courses on psych. By no means an expert. Etc. Etc.
P.P.S. I have, however, a library of books and articles about Brian and the Beach Boys, and my mom says I'm super smart.



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« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2009, 11:14:57 AM »

Brian Wilson is able to drive a car, and yet some of you assume that he is unable to shop for groceries or clean the house? It seems like they've stabilized him to a pretty good point if he can drive a car, after being so publicly stigmatized for his mental illness.

I'm reliably informed (by someone with experience in this area) that being a passenger in a car driven by Brian can take years off your life.  Grin
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