Landy

[the captain]

^ I think you're right. I think some people are saying you need to be incapacitated, batshit crazy to qualify. I disagree with that.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yes, Brian's breakdown happened in public. That sucks, but doesn't qualify as mentally ill.

I had a very public breakdown. Got sectioned. That qualify as mentally ill in your book ? 'Cause my doctors sure thought so.

[Steve Mayo]

I'm not a pharmacist.

i am..... 

[TdHabib]

In my opinion, Brian was just kinda wanting to get away from it all from 1969-1972. Depressed, yes taking drugs but I think it was just a little sadness and alienation that kept him in the bedroom during that period. When he did come out, it was terrific and he sounded terrific, everything from Sunflower to the "Awake" demo and even the Spring stuff. In '72 it turned much worse, I think, and Carl even said that this was the period where it got serious. The fact that he didn't contribute to roughly half the CATP album is a sign for the worse, and Brian himself stated in Endless Harmony that he was in a very bad way during the Holland sessions, although his work on "Mount Vernon" is superb, he does sound a bit deranged as the Pied Piper, charming, but deranged. I think that the serious period was 1973-1975. 74 he did only a little work; it ranges from terrific ("Good Timin'") to fun ("Rollin' Up to Heaven," "Child of Winter) to terrible ("Battle Hymn"). In 75 "Why Do Fools" is not very good, I don't care for the falsetto on Johnny Rivers "Rhonda"and by the time of "Back Home" his voice is fun but fairly shot. The fact that he didn't produce much for the rest of the year shows that he was in quite a bad way.

[Sheriff John Stone]

This is how I see it, and excuse the over-simplification....

When Brian re-emerged, "got out of bed", re-joined the group in late 1975, it was the first time many had seen/heard him THAT bad. It was the weight gain, the beard with long, greasy hair, raspy voice, AND, most importantly, the shaky hands. That was always something that disturbed me. The guy was shaking, both his hands and his legs. Right there was a sign that something was seriously wrong. SERIOUSLY wrong.

The next alarming moment was when he was allowed to interview in 1983, after hooking up with Landy for the second time. The first time I saw Brian then was on Entertainment Tonight, the "I've been up, down, under, over; but I'm still here, and I'm still rocking" segment. I was stunned - and heartbroken. Oh, with the weight loss, trimmed beard, combed hair, and Hawaiian shirt, he looked great. But, those eyes. He wasn't all there, he was gone....And the way he kept rolling his tongue along the inside of his cheek, and the hands were still shaking. I don't want to sound melodramatic, but I felt that Brian was gone; I've seen people like that, I've worked with people like that. What did Landy do to him after 1982?

[the captain]

I don't want to belabor this, but it's my nature, so I will.   If the question is "was Brian mentally ill before the 70s/Landy?" it seems to me that the reasons not have nothing to do with the question. They are things like "he was still making music," "he was still lucid," "he could still take care of himself," etc. And those don't in any way hint he wasn't mentally ill. Contrarily, having auditory hallucinations, depression and having breakdowns are by definition mental illnesses. You don't need to have terminal cancer to be physically ill; you don't need to be a 300 lb babbling showerless bedridden man to be mentally ill. It seems to me people don't want to acknowledge he was mentally ill because of the stigma attached to the term: "oh, he can't have been mentally ill because that means crazy and he can't have been crazy because I like his music." It's not a bad thing that he was born into a family that had obviously hereditary mental illness. There's nos hame in it. He's not a lesser composer, arranger or singer for it.

[MBE]

What I am pointing out by saying he was lucid and writing music and not 300 pounds and unwashed in the early 70's is that he didn't need something as drastic as Landy then. He needed help very early on, as I said twice before 1963 is the first sign something wasn't right. It's only after let's say Murry's death, give or take a year, that it becomes clear that he was having problems outside your common mental issues. That's why the question of could anyone else have helped is raised. I am pretty sure that until Murry died he could have been helped a lot easier.

[Ganz Allein]

I'm with Dada and Luther that while Brian showed signs of mental illness beforehand, Landy left him mentally damaged the second time around.  As Sheriff John Stone points out, there was just something so different about Brian after '82.  In interviews not too long before that time, when Brian was at his worst - like the Les Chan interview - Brian is lucid (I agree, MBE), consistent, and sometimes even funny (in a good way).

But in interviews from '83 through the next decade or so, Brian seems like he's rattling off coached lines or his answers are just awkward.  He sounds like he's saying what Landy has programmed him to say or parroting Landy catchphrases - not so much what he really thinks and feels.  He seems better today, but the change is still there.  For the longest time after '82 it seemed almost like an Invasion of the Body Snatchers kind of thing, and the real Brian would only peek through in the music or in rare interview moments.

[grillo]

I don't want to belabor this, but it's my nature, so I will.   If the question is "was Brian mentally ill before the 70s/Landy?" it seems to me that the reasons not have nothing to do with the question.

I too enjoy belaboring this, as well as trying to make myself clear, which is generally hopeless, but still...
To say BW was mentally ill because he had some sort of breakdown just doesn't jive with me. The auditory hallucinations thing I always thought started later, though Brian claims they were in the 60's (and he would know, except he doesn't always actually seem to remember things correctly, so maybe he wouldn't). Maybe I simply do not understand the definition of mental illness. Oh yeah, there isn't one. Obviously what I think is VERY irrelevent since I have no credentials other than being a fellow human, but BW's 'problems' seem like they were minor and manageable until Murry died and only then, with the help of lots of drugs did he begin to lose control of himself. But really, i don't know squat and will happily admit that this version of events is strictly my personal fantasy. Happy new year folks!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian was an intriguing figure from 1967 - 1975 because that period, more than any other, we didn't see or hear as much from him. There aren't an over abundance of audio or video tapes of him to get a good guage. So, where am I going with this?

I don't think it's arguable that Brian needed care from, say, 1976 to present. What I mean is a wife/guardian/conservator, or whatever was necessary for Brian to live outside of managed care. He was not capable of living on his own and managing his own affairs. But, what about before 1975? Does anybody think Brian was ever able to function on his own, say post-1968? Just asking....

[Dancing Bear]

Let's say between 68 and 75, he decided to cut off from the band, family and relatives, and they had failed to convince a judge that he was incapable. And he moved to another city, like... New York.

Brian had a perpetual influx of royalties cash. He wouldn't have to be a productive person. But would he be able to avoid the leeches, hangers-on and drug dealers?

Definetly NO!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian had a perpetual influx of royalties cash. He wouldn't have to be a productive person. But would he be able to avoid the leeches, hangers-on and drug dealers?

Definetly NO!

Well, that's the question, the real issue, isn't it. I was gonna go all the way back to 1965 or 1966. Would've Brian ever been able to live on his own?

[the captain]

Maybe I simply do not understand the definition of mental illness. Oh yeah, there isn't one.

Well of course there are definitions of mental illnesses. You're right, there isn't one. But there are plenty.

[MBE]

Friends of Brian's say he was able to take care of himself back then. Ed Roach, Steve Shapiro,Debbie Keil etc. By 1975 he needed a minder. Except for the breakdown in 1964 he didn't seem to make a public spectacle of himself until about 1974. The Be Bop A Lula incident etc.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

What Be Bop a Lula incident?!

[grillo]

Also, I seem to remember Dean Torrence saying Brian was the same old guy and still played basketball with Dean sometime in the 70's.

[Jay]

I don't buy the taglines and catch phrases of documentaries: I don't think Brian "needed someone as crazy as him" to sober up, as they all say. I'm just saying there had been attempts to help him before. Those failed. He was nearly dead. Landy kept him alive. Simple as that, really. Whether anyone else could have or not is irrelevant: Landy is the one who did save his life. Twice. (Then he helped ruin it.)

Indeed. I still think Brian's 'mental illness' only appeared AFTER Landy. Yes, he used, and likely abused, several substances, but that is not necessarily a sign of anything other than general unhappiness, something we all self-medicate for. Landy completely warped and damaged BW's mind, which I feel is infinitely worse.

I agree with you totally. I think that 75% of Brian's problems in the 60's and early 70's were just severe depression, and anxiety. The LSD, hash, pills and Nitrus Oxide just made it worse. It wasn't untill his dad died that you could honestly call his problems "mental illness". Landy messed his brain up beyond repair. Today, I'm not sure that Brian can do a simple task like shopping totally on his own. THAT is "mental illness".

[MBE]

What Be Bop a Lula incident?!

He went to the Whisky in 1974 where Jazz player Larry Coryell (sp?) was playing. He was dressed in his robe and pajama's. He started noticeably beating his thighs together to the music then tried to jump on stage. He fell. Crying he sat back down. Then he jumped again and landed on stage. He ran up and started singing Be Bop A Lula interupting the jazz music. Larry tried playing along for a minute and then security came and threw Brian out.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Interesting point is that Brian never has truly lived on his own (with one possible exception). Consider:

1942-1962 - with parents
1962-1964 - with Bob Norburg and then own place, but essentially lived at the Rovell's house
1964-1979 - with Marilyn (and Landy 1975-76)
1979-1982 - with Carolyn Williams
1982-1991 - with Landy & Surf Nazis
1991-1992 - with Kevin Leslie
1992-1995 - this is the exception, but I can't imagine he didn't have someone TCB: can you imagine Brian cooking, or cleaning house ? Of course, Melinda rekindled the relationship in summer 1993 and soon became his conservator.
1995-date - with Melinda.

[the captain]

Brian's problems in the 60's and early 70's were just severe depression, and anxiety. ... It wasn't untill his dad died that you could honestly call his problems "mental illness". Landy messed his brain up beyond repair. Today, I'm not sure that Brian can do a simple task like shopping totally on his own. THAT is "mental illness".

There is a breakdown in definitions here. Severe definition IS a mental illness. That isn't me making things up. That is fact. A person doesn't need to be incapacitated--unable to do a "simple task like shopping totally on his own" to be mentally ill. But I give up on this one.

[Fall Breaks]

can you imagine Brian cooking, or cleaning house ?

This is fun stuff! I would love to be a fly on the wall in the Wilson household for a week, just to see this, since yes, I can actually imagine him cooking. No gourmet stuff, but, say, fried sausages and pasta, definitely! Not cleaning the house, though.

[endofposts]

Interesting point is that Brian never has truly lived on his own (with one possible exception). Consider:

1942-1962 - with parents
1962-1964 - with Bob Norburg and then own place, but essentially lived at the Rovell's house
1964-1979 - with Marilyn (and Landy 1975-76)
1979-1982 - with Carolyn Williams
1982-1991 - with Landy & Surf Nazis
1991-1992 - with Kevin Leslie
1992-1995 - this is the exception, but I can't imagine he didn't have someone TCB: can you imagine Brian cooking, or cleaning house ? Of course, Melinda rekindled the relationship in summer 1993 and soon became his conservator.
1995-date - with Melinda.

You mention '92-'95 -- how about his housekeeper, Gloria?  I had an aunt that subscribed to the National Enquirer, and I'd somtimes read that fine publication when I visited her.  Anyways, sometime after Landy was gone, they published a series of photos of Brian walking the streets looking distressed, accompanied by a Hispanic woman described as his housekeeper.  She was also described as walking him back to his car after a visit to the doctor.  Gloria's name has been included in acknowledgements on some of Brian's CD's and has been mentioned by him in interviews as an important person in his life.  Maybe she's an unsung hero in helping Brian out.  I think her employment with him goes back to the Landy days and continued after he married Melinda.

[c-man]

Interesting point is that Brian never has truly lived on his own (with one possible exception). Consider:

1942-1962 - with parents
1962-1964 - with Bob Norburg and then own place, but essentially lived at the Rovell's house
1964-1979 - with Marilyn (and Landy 1975-76)
1979-1982 - with Carolyn Williams
1982-1991 - with Landy & Surf Nazis
1991-1992 - with Kevin Leslie
1992-1995 - this is the exception, but I can't imagine he didn't have someone TCB: can you imagine Brian cooking, or cleaning house ? Of course, Melinda rekindled the relationship in summer 1993 and soon became his conservator.
1995-date - with Melinda.

I think he moved out of the Bellagio house in mid-'78; for about a year there (maybe less) I think he was on his own, but then Debbie Kiel was around, wasn't she?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Thanks, both of you, for filling in the blanks, and shame on me for forgetting about Gloria, who has been a VERY important part of Brian's life since pre-Melinda. And of course there are photos of Debbie in Nick Kent's disturbing - but sadly entirely accurate - 1980 interview/portrait with Brian in the NME.

So, to recap & revise:

1942-1962 - with parents
1962-1964 - with Bob Norburg and then own place, but essentially lived at the Rovell's house
1964-1978 - with Marilyn (and Landy 1975-76)
1978-1979 - with Debbie Keil
1979-1982 - with Carolyn Williams
1982-1991 - with Landy & Surf Nazis
1991-1992 - with Kevin Leslie
1992-1995 - with Gloria Ramos (housekeeper, etc.): Melinda rekindled the relationship in summer 1993 and soon became his conservator.
1995-date - with Melinda.

[Sam_BFC]

What of the stories about Brian gaining weight and smoking again in the 92-95 period?