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Author Topic: Landy  (Read 26991 times)
the captain
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2008, 06:47:22 PM »

I know anything COULD be a sign. But that's why I said you have to look at the results, too. Passing bad spells or phases in life are one thing, entirely common. But when it ends up with decades of continuous, serious problems, it's hard to say they were irrelevant.
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« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2008, 06:50:36 PM »

I know anything COULD be a sign. But that's why I said you have to look at the results, too. Passing bad spells or phases in life are one thing, entirely common. But when it ends up with decades of continuous, serious problems, it's hard to say they were irrelevant.
True. Seems like a perfect storm of circumstance and the humans involved that got BW to this point. Weird.
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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2008, 07:19:06 PM »

I truly think Landy at the start really wanted to help Brian, but when he started experiencing the Celebrity lifestyle, the money, the fame he prolonged Brian's illness, to the point of making him a vegtable, or more to the point..a robot.

I think Diane Sawyer is the reason Brian is alive today.  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2008, 09:03:32 PM »

Don't forget that when Landy first left the scene in 1976, Brian started seeing another psychologist, Dr. Steve Schwartz. I think (not positive) that Brian was doing pretty well with him, but then Schwartz got killed in a rock-climbing accident, sending Brian into a tailspin.

Obviously that was tragic for Dr. Schwartz and his loved ones, but it's also another one of the many what-ifs for Brian and the Beach Boys: What if Dr. Schwartz had lived?
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« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2008, 09:53:12 PM »

I think Diane Sawyer is the reason Brian is alive today.  Grin

Good, good call.  Anyone not seen this amazing interview, go to youtube now and search Sawyer Landy Wilson.

BTW, if anyone thinks the anonymous 'employee of Brother records' sounds familiar... well, you'd be right.  Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2008, 10:44:38 PM »

Really, people's descriptions of his social anxieties as a teenager could be signs of mental illness. Had he turned out to be otherwise healthy in that regard, I'd say he was just a shy kid, typical teenage anxiety. But considering what actually did end up happening, I'd say he (as is pretty common) began experiencing its effects in adolescence. And considering Audree's descriptions of Murray, he came by it pretty naturally. He didn't need a bad LSD trip to "acquire" mental illness. He was born with the tendencies.
In theory ANYTHING COULD be a sign of mental illness, which seem like fairly large parameters. Brian looks to have been a pretty productive guy up until Murry died. I don't believe that just any deviation from a non-existent norm equals mental illness. Landy on the other hand was obviously nuts, in a bad way.

Well that's the point really is that Brian did change a lot after Murry died. Don't get me wrong he was having mental issues as early as 1963 what with him not wanting to tour and giving up his previously healthy diet. I mean those changes came fast, and by the end of 1964 obviously something was wrong. In 1968 he had some help and honestly he did seem better for a few years.  Now after that with Murry selling the songs, and the fight over using Surf's Up etc. he had some setbacks.  By 1972 he was showing some signs of drug addiction, but I don't think he would have needed drastic treatment in June 1973. He needed some help but he had more of a everyday (if you can call it that) drug or mental illness issues at that point. Again I don't know what could have helped Brian by 1975 but Landy hurt him. There had to have been someone else in the world who could have helped. Now by 1982 Brian was far worse then before, but by then drug and mental treatment had started to become more advanced and I just refuse to believe that Landy was the only option.
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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2008, 11:24:23 PM »

I agree with grillo, that any decent Doctor could have gotten Brian sober. But, it took a true nutjob like Landy to scare and belittle Brian into STAYING sober. Let's not forget that Brian was and still is a very fragile man. It almost took somebody on Brian's level to make any progress with him. Landy was fired once, and Brian didn't stay sober for long, if he ever was sober to begin with. I think that this is one of the reasons why the group was quite possibly afraid to "dismiss" Landy to quickly.
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« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2008, 02:26:34 AM »

I agree with grillo, that any decent Doctor could have gotten Brian sober. But, it took a true nutjob like Landy to scare and belittle Brian into STAYING sober. Let's not forget that Brian was and still is a very fragile man. It almost took somebody on Brian's level to make any progress with him. Landy was fired once, and Brian didn't stay sober for long, if he ever was sober to begin with. I think that this is one of the reasons why the group was quite possibly afraid to "dismiss" Landy to quickly.

I know it's commonly accepted that Brian needed someone as nuts as himself by that point in order to get better, but I really don't feel this way as I just don't see what good "scaring and belittling" might do to an indeed very fragile person.
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the captain
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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2008, 04:07:15 PM »

I don't buy the taglines and catch phrases of documentaries: I don't think Brian "needed someone as crazy as him" to sober up, as they all say. I'm just saying there had been attempts to help him before. Those failed. He was nearly dead. Landy kept him alive. Simple as that, really. Whether anyone else could have or not is irrelevant: Landy is the one who did save his life. Twice. (Then he helped ruin it.)
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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2008, 04:13:37 PM »

I don't buy the taglines and catch phrases of documentaries: I don't think Brian "needed someone as crazy as him" to sober up, as they all say. I'm just saying there had been attempts to help him before. Those failed. He was nearly dead. Landy kept him alive. Simple as that, really. Whether anyone else could have or not is irrelevant: Landy is the one who did save his life. Twice. (Then he helped ruin it.)
Indeed. I still think Brian's 'mental illness' only appeared AFTER Landy. Yes, he used, and likely abused, several substances, but that is not necessarily a sign of anything other than general unhappiness, something we all self-medicate for. Landy completely warped and damaged BW's mind, which I feel is infinitely worse.
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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2008, 04:16:02 PM »

Brian's breakdown on the plane in 64 or 65 (whenever it was) isn't a sign he was mentally ill? I wonder if your understanding of a mental illness requires it to be incapacitating to qualify. There are plenty of people going to work every day and functioning perfectly well with mental illnesses. Doesn't mean they don't have the problems. I'd say if you get to the point of breakdowns, you're mentally ill. That's safe to say.
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2008, 04:35:00 PM »

Doesn't refusing to release songs you created because you thought they created fires register as maybe being a sign something's not right upstairs? Likewise thinking mind gangsters are trying to steal your mind?

I've always thought that maybe the mind gangsters thing was a  put-on of Brian's. The fire stuff, not so much.
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« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2009, 12:02:34 AM »

I don't buy the taglines and catch phrases of documentaries: I don't think Brian "needed someone as crazy as him" to sober up, as they all say.

That's actually a direct quote from Landy in 1976, not a film-makers creation.
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the captain
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« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2009, 05:51:09 AM »

I don't buy the taglines and catch phrases of documentaries: I don't think Brian "needed someone as crazy as him" to sober up, as they all say.

That's actually a direct quote from Landy in 1976, not a film-makers creation.
Plenty of the things I mean when I say "taglines and catch phrases" were direct quotes--just often they were included in film interviews. I just don't like how they're so often repeated ad nauseum as if having been said out loud on a big moving screen makes them true (or at least the whole truth, or a simple truth). That's all.
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« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2009, 09:24:54 AM »

Brian's breakdown on the plane in 64 or 65 (whenever it was) isn't a sign he was mentally ill? I wonder if your understanding of a mental illness requires it to be incapacitating to qualify. There are plenty of people going to work every day and functioning perfectly well with mental illnesses. Doesn't mean they don't have the problems. I'd say if you get to the point of breakdowns, you're mentally ill. That's safe to say.
I think being stressed out about being responsible for your entire family's fortunes and being unsure whether you can continue to pull it off, along with feeling lonely and missing your sweetie, can make just about anyone crack up. That goes double if you are a very sensitive 21 year old. I know it's fashionable to push prozac on anyone these days and say they are 'mentally ill'. Show me someone who is NOT mentally ill according to your definitions. I guess you've never had a breakdown, or a feeling of hopelessness. Yes, Brian's breakdown happened in public. That sucks, but doesn't qualify as mentally ill.
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the captain
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« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2009, 11:06:22 AM »

I'm not a pharmacist.
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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2009, 11:23:23 AM »

Brian's breakdown on the plane in 64 or 65 (whenever it was) isn't a sign he was mentally ill? I wonder if your understanding of a mental illness requires it to be incapacitating to qualify. There are plenty of people going to work every day and functioning perfectly well with mental illnesses. Doesn't mean they don't have the problems. I'd say if you get to the point of breakdowns, you're mentally ill. That's safe to say.
I think being stressed out about being responsible for your entire family's fortunes and being unsure whether you can continue to pull it off, along with feeling lonely and missing your sweetie, can make just about anyone crack up. That goes double if you are a very sensitive 21 year old. I know it's fashionable to push prozac on anyone these days and say they are 'mentally ill'. Show me someone who is NOT mentally ill according to your definitions. I guess you've never had a breakdown, or a feeling of hopelessness. Yes, Brian's breakdown happened in public. That sucks, but doesn't qualify as mentally ill.

I would say hearing voices in your head threatening to kill you and telling you you are terrible person dating back to 1965, thinking a movie is talking directly to you (paranoid delusion), thinking Spector is bugging your house and his mind gangsters are out to get you for stealing the wall of sound(same), thinking music you created is making fires pop up around L.A., staying in bed for days and weeks at a time and not washing, offering cocaine to your young daughters, being hospitalized for a mental breakdown and having at least two mental breakdowns before that - all that qualifies as mental illness in my book, and happened BEFORE Landy.  That's not just "being sensitive."
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the captain
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« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2009, 11:25:36 AM »

^ Yep. I'm not trying to diagnose everyone in the world. I'm not trying to dish out antidepressants like candy. But it's not much of a stretch to say that a guy who clearly was seriously mentally ill later was probably mentally ill earlier while demonstrating many signs of mental illness. That isn't overreaching.
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« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2009, 03:30:00 PM »

Alright. Point taken. Still think he was basically fine until Landy though. 
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« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2009, 03:33:20 PM »

Then why was Landy hired?
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« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2009, 03:46:41 PM »

I think by 'fine' before Landy, he means Brian seemed more intact mentally, albeit ill. Under Landy he became less ill but more mentally damaged. 
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the captain
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« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2009, 03:51:45 PM »

There is a key difference that you hit on there. I do think that Landy caused him irreparable mental damage. I think he was mentally ill regardless, but that Landy's treatment left him mentally damaged. I don't think those are the same thing at all, though. He was prone to depression and had auditory hallucinations regardless, so that's mental illness. But after Landy, well, he's what he is now: not all there.
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2009, 12:10:45 AM »

It's the lucidity of Brian before Landy that makes a difference. He could be an excellent conversationalist. It was part of his personality. I have had the privilege to hear around 7 or 8 pre Landy interviews and he seems really normal in an eccentric kind of way. I'm not saying he was mentally all together, but he seemed like he could look after himself. By 1975 he was in a very bad way, but I argue strongly that he was hardly a hard core addict until 1972-73. Probably after Murry died really. The mental issues (in a minor way) predate the drugs, but I doubt it ever would have gotten as bad without them.
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2009, 12:52:05 AM »

Yes, Brian's breakdown happened in public. That sucks, but doesn't qualify as mentally ill.

How can you say for certain that it doesn't qualify as mentally ill?
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« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2009, 05:47:51 AM »

I think we're having some problems with the definition of 'mentally ill' here. I guess those people who study it for decades do too, then it's ok.
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