A Smile Question or Two (More What-Ifs)

[Mr. Cohen]

1. How much of the music do people think Van Dyke for SMiLE? I recall reading somewhere that he did admit to writing some of the music. SMiLE sees Brian exploring unfamiliar musical territories that he would only visits once, while the material seems quite in line with what Van Dyke wrote or participated in the writing of during his career. Certainly, some of the songs on Song Cycle (like "All Golden") sound almost like SMiLE songs. Things like the piano transition from "my children were raised..." to "at three score and five" in the cantina version of H&V or the changing tempos of "Surf's Up" sound more Van Dyke than Brian to me. Although I'm sure Brian presented most of the musical ideas, he might have used the supremely musically knowledge Van Dyke to round some of them out.

2. What happens if "Surf's Up" gets put on Smiley Smile? Brian says that the group almost broke up for good over not releasing that. What if the group somehow convinced Brian to put a finished version of "Surf's Up" using the SMiLE era recording on Smiley Smile, citing the success of the Bernstein visit  and the success of other psychedelic opus's like "Strawberry Fields Forever"? Would it have been enough to put the album over the top, evening out the trippy 'filler' that comprises most of the album? What if he got convinced to put one other SMiLE song on their too, like "Cabinessence" or "Roll Plymouth Rock"? Does Smiley Smile become a hit? I think it's tough to say, but more realistic than a properly finished SMiLE.

[lance]

I think Van Dyke made his musical mark on SMiLE; I also think some of the lyrics are Brian's. It's convenient to say one did one or the other, but as Desper said about Wilson/Love songs, buried somewhere in his thread:(I paraphrase) Writing songs is creative. It's not a factory where there is some system to it.)

[Ian]

Brian did write some lyrics to many songs....Mike stated this in his famous Goldmine interview..While seeking credit for writing lyrics, Mike admitted that many Wilson-Love songs were not 50-50, some, like Help Me Rhonda, were mostly Brian lyrics-with some additions by Mike.  Much of Pet Sounds resulted from sessions between Brian and Tony Asher where they discussed all kinds of things-such as Brian's talk about early girlfriends and Marilyn, etc-that resulted in Caroline, No....That being said a lot of lyrics on Smile are so clearly Van Dyke that it is not even in an issue

[the captain]

Regarding who wrote what, I think it's safe to say it's not either extreme (Brian saying Van Dyke wrote most of it, Van Dyke saying he was strictly a lyricist working for Brian with no other input). But I also think it's safe to say that the specifics can't ever be discerned: too much time and in the case of one of the parties, too much mental damage would skew the truth. I can't tell you exactly who wrote what of songs I did with bands three or four years ago--and while I like to drink, we're not talking about some LSD damage or anything. It's just that a suggestion here and there doesn't seem monumental at the time, it's just part of the process. Someone has a musical or lyrical line, someone else changes it, the feel is altered, another line accompanies or replaces it, etc.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I would be very interested in knowing WHICH Smile lyrics Brian Wilson wrote.

[the captain]

I would be very interested in knowing WHICH Smile lyrics Brian Wilson wrote.

"Good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah."

[Sheriff John Stone]

I would be very interested in knowing WHICH Smile lyrics Brian Wilson wrote.

"Good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah."

Mike wrote "yeah".

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I would be very interested in knowing WHICH Smile lyrics Brian Wilson wrote.

While Van Dyke has credit on the song, I've always thought that 'He Gives Speeches ' sounded like an attempt by Brian to sound like Van Dyke.

[Rocker]

I would be very interested in knowing WHICH Smile lyrics Brian Wilson wrote.

Maybe "Barnyard" to my ears.

[armona]

Maybe part of Vega-tables, given his interest in the subject, except for the "tripped on a corunucopia" verse. Wind Chimes could also be Brian I suppose--sounds like a simple melancholy lyric along the lines of something he would write.

[Bicyclerider]

Interesting that Brian was given sole writng credit for Wind chimes and Wonderful on Smiley Smile - while wonderful clearly has Van Dyke lyrics, Wind Chimes certainly sounds like it could have been written by Brian, despite Van Dyke saying he wrote them and getting credit on BWPS.  Perhaps wind Chimes was more a 50/50 lyric  - the inspiration was the wind chimes outside the kitchen window at Brian's house.  Vegetables also strikes me as more of a collaborative lyric.

As for music, Van Dyke has repeatedly said every note was Brian's, he was writing lyrics to order for melodies already written.  Has any part of the music been confirmed by Brian or Van Dyke to be Van Dyke's?  That said, I'd be surprized if while they were collaborating a lyric of Van Dyke's didn't suggest a change in the music to Brian, but I think Van Dyke's musical contribution to the songs was small, as he has repeatedly denied writing the music.  I suspect Van Dyke's influence may have been far more important in the arrangements than has been acknowledged - he suggested the cellos for Good Vibrations, after all - and he was present at most of the sessions (through December at least, and then on  Heroes sessions after that) as a keyboard player or in the control room.

[WWDWD?]

I thought Carl suggested the cello in GV. I swear I heard that in an interview somewhere.

[Bicyclerider]

Both Carl and Van Dyke have claimed credit for the cellos idea.

[PongHit]

Both Carl and Van Dyke have claimed credit for the cellos idea.

Maybe Carl suggested the use of cellos, but VD suggested the triplet?

[Alex]

Both Carl and Van Dyke have claimed credit for the cellos idea.

Maybe Carl suggested the use of cellos, but VD suggested the triplet?

In the documentary on the Pet Sounds Live DVD Brian said the cellos were Carl's idea, but every other place I've read or heard that it was VDP's idea.

[Jason]

As has been oft-repeated here, Brian's memory is not the best to go by. Case in point, the dude in my avatar most likely agrees. With a SMiLE, no less.

[Mr. Cohen]

Well, here's what I know about the cello in Good Vibrations (I know all of this because I've visited BB message boards too many times, for reasons I don't want to know): it's in the background of the chorus. That's all there is to it. No, I'm just kidding. According to Carl, he was in the studio with Brian when Brian complained that 'something' was missing from the chorus in the instrumental. Carl allegedly blurted out the word "cello" without even thinking, claiming later that the word just wanted to be said, and he had no control over it. He seems to kind of take that supernatural approach to Brian's music sometimes (like when he said that Brian was one of those rare human beings whose whole essence is musical, or something to that effect). Later, when Van Dyke visited the studio and listened to an early mix of Good Vibrations, he suggested that Brian arrange cellos in triplets during the chorus, probably after Brian had brought up the cello idea but didn't know exactly how to implement it with the track (the last part is unconfirmed conjecture). Or maybe even Van Dyke and Carl were there on the same day. Either way, this seems to corroborate all the stories from the time and makes the most sense.

[Sheriff John Stone]

In my neverending quest to make the perfect SMiLE compilation CD , I still don't know what to do with "Tones (Tune X)". Is it a Carl composed piece, was it procuced by Brian, is it (in anybody's personal opinion) a legitimate SMiLE track to be taken seriously? 

[Chris Brown]

In my neverending quest to make the perfect SMiLE compilation CD , I still don't know what to do with "Tones (Tune X)". Is it a Carl composed piece, was it procuced by Brian, is it (in anybody's personal opinion) a legitimate SMiLE track to be taken seriously? 

I could be wrong, but I thought that "Tones" was just Carl's opportunity to get into the studio and do some producing.  As I recall, Brian had nothing to do with it.  Thus, I wouldn't really consider it a legitimate SMiLE track.

[Sheriff John Stone]

In my neverending quest to make the perfect SMiLE compilation CD , I still don't know what to do with "Tones (Tune X)". Is it a Carl composed piece, was it procuced by Brian, is it (in anybody's personal opinion) a legitimate SMiLE track to be taken seriously? 

I could be wrong, but I thought that "Tones" was just Carl's opportunity to get into the studio and do some producing.  As I recall, Brian had nothing to do with it.  Thus, I wouldn't really consider it a legitimate SMiLE track.

That seems to be the prevailing theory. However, that's a pretty expensive undertaking to book studio time and musicians to "practice" producing. Did Carl have a finished song/track in mind? I thought I read somewhere that Brian was present at the session.   

[Bicyclerider]

Tones - Carl written and Carl produced.  Brian was not playing on the session, don't know if he attended the original session or one of the overdub/mixing sessions. 

[Alex]

Tones - Carl written and Carl produced.  Brian was not playing on the session, don't know if he attended the original session or one of the overdub/mixing sessions. 

I was always under the impression that Carl wrote it but Brian produced it.