Brian comments on possibilities of a BB reunion

[Jonathan Blum]

I don't know. Between 1993 and 1997 people had access to the whole Beach Boys catalogue and then some (Smile and rarities in the box set). Brian Wilson had a real mystique between the hipsters. It was the peak of 'Pet Sounds is the best album ever', and he still had the Smile ace up his sleeve! The fans expected that, when free of the Beach Boys and Dr. Landy, Brian would show everyone what he was keeping to himself since he 'went to bed'.

The thing is... that's about where I came in (I bought the boxset because I was curious about Smile, then liked Orange Crate Art, and finally got ahold of bootlegs thanks to the net in '98)...  but I saw a fairly different picture.  The legend that was around at that point, where I was at least, wasn't The Once And Future Brian...  it was Brian the ex-genius, cut down at the peak of his creative flowering by his inner demons, who'd been trotted out repeatedly like a dancing bear (as it were) by his band and his therapist, and who, now free of them, seemed to need all his mental energy to tuck his shirt in.  I don't think anyone I knew thought he was capable of great creative work in his own right, and the spangly and hollow feel of "Imagination" lived down to our expectations.

(Which is why everything he's done since then has felt like a successive series of steps up, to heights I hadn't imagined.)

The notable thing is that the image of Brian I encountered as I entered the fan environment didn't seem that different from the Brian I'd known of in the outside world...  he was still the rock star who'd lost it, with an added helping of having been a genius rock star.  But basically it was the same mental image I'd had since I was a kid -- my nine-year-old self can still remember a comedy bit on "Solid Gold" back in 1981, with a guy selling Brian Wilson candy bars.  ("Sure, they're nuts, but they're seeing a psychiatrist...")  And while I'm sure the hype surrounding the '88 album echoed loudly among the people who already thought Brian was a genius, it clearly didn't carry over into the wider world enough to translate into people giving the record a try.

Then.... 1998. Imagination. GIOMH. BWPS. WDIRWFC. TLOS.

Gone is the mystique around Brian AND Smile. No one's expecting a comeback anymore. That was vital to his image since the seventies.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Go back through that list a bit more slowly...  Imagination... GIOMH...  Brian Wilson Presents Smile.  Yep, Brian Wilson has finished Smile.  How quickly we forget!  Right there, that's the comeback no one was expecting.  The stuff biopics are made of.

I think the people to whom the mystique of Smile is "gone" are the people who were heavily invested in Smile-as-puzzle-box...  the solution is never as interesting as the mystery.  But Smile-as-redemption-story is a whole different myth, reaching a whole different audience, including people who hadn't been hanging out for it for forty years.  It redefined his legend from The Lost Beach Boy to The One Who Made It Back.  Not without a hell of a lot of damage, and not without help, but dammit he climbed the mountain that defeated him all those years ago.

And I think you only need to look at the difference in sales between GIOMH and "That Lucky Old Sun" to see the effect it's had on the wider perception of Brian-today as an artist worth pursuing.

(And the fact that Brian's Smile is such a gorgeous album, and TLOS is exactly the sort of tuneful, playful, tasteful, timeless, crafted work that I would never have imagined the maker of "Imagination" would be capable of again, has only helped get people into appreciating him.)

Sure, there are still lots of people out there to whom Brian is just some brain-damaged old guy... but that was the case in the old days as well.  I know, I was one of them.  Even so, the number of people who will say "damaged genius" now rather than just "fried ex-Beach Boy" has grown in the past decade... it's not just the '60s or '70s generation who kept the faith, the idea's crossed into the post-Brian-Is-Back generation, like me.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

Hey Jonathan, sure it's occurred to you before. But a Doctor Who story - combining sea monsters, surfing, sewerage, sibling rivalry, female hair loss, shock therapy, the ghost of Amadeus, droll men dancing the chicken, cults of beautiful women... surely it's just waiting to be written?

Heh -- tempting, but given the tabloid trouble my wife got into when she had the Doctor drop acid (back in her first book), I don't know how much of the real story we could get away with!  >:-)  Though the image of David Tennant's Doctor being the only person who could keep up with a wired Dennis has a certain appeal...

(I did slip a reference into "The Year Of Intelligent Tigers", though, where there's a mention that they're performing "Smile" at a music festival a few centuries from now.  "Whose reconstruction?"  "Hunt and Lane, I think..."  I wrote that bit in 2000, and it just goes to show how bad science fiction is at predicting the future!)

...Dammit, now you've got me thinking about story ideas.  Maybe I'll call it "The Lonely Sea"...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think the people to whom the mystique of Smile is "gone" are the people who were heavily invested in Smile-as-puzzle-box...  the solution is never as interesting as the mystery.  But Smile-as-redemption-story is a whole different myth, reaching a whole different audience, including people who hadn't been hanging out for it for forty years.  It redefined his legend from The Lost Beach Boy to The One Who Made It Back.  Not without a hell of a lot of damage, and not without help, but dammit he climbed the mountain that defeated him all those years ago.

Why do you think "the mystique of Smile is gone"? The Smile era is still one of of the most discussed topics on any BB/BW message board, with BWPS raising as many questions as answers. And why do you think "the people to whom the mystique of Smile is gone are the people who were highly invested in Smile-as-puzzle-box"? Do you really think that the many people who value the Smile mystique lost any of that mystique to the Darian Sahanaja-led sequencing of Smile songs for a live performance.

You wrote "Smile-as-redemption-story is a whole different myth". A myth?

And, finally, you wrote, "he climbed the mountain that defeated him all those years ago". Mountain? Defeated him? There are a lot of people who consider Brian's music - after Smile - including Smiley Smile, to be among his best ever. Have you ever listened to Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, parts of Surf's Up and Carl & The Passions?

[Dancing Bear]

Jonathan, BWPS doesn't do anything for me. Sorry.

About its objective position in western culture, I've read wildly differing viewpoints, here and abroad. I guess we need some more years to have a clearer view.

[Jonathan Blum]

Why do you think "the mystique of Smile is gone"?

I don't -- Dancing Bear was the one who wrote "Gone is the mystique around Brian AND Smile."  Me, I think it's got plenty of mystique -- not so much in the how-could-you-possibly-fit-these-pieces-together end of things compared to the old days when that was the topic in the close quarters of BB/BW fandom, but as an awe-inspiring album.  And that mystique's spread to people who didn't really notice it before.

You wrote "Smile-as-redemption-story is a whole different myth". A myth?

Yeah -- myth not in the falsehood sense, but in the story-which-gives-meaning-to-the-pattern-of-life-and-the-world sense.  An archetypal tale.  See also "the California Myth", which hardly claims that the California experience didn't actually happen to the people who were living through it.  :-)

(Sorry, I was talking like a Pretentious Writer Type there, I think...)

And, finally, you wrote, "he climbed the mountain that defeated him all those years ago". Mountain? Defeated him? There are a lot of people who consider Brian's music - after Smile - including Smiley Smile, to be among his best ever. Have you ever listened to Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, parts of Surf's Up and Carl & The Passions?

Sure -- there's loads of brilliant stuff in those years.  For the record, I groove on "Wild Honey" more than "Friends", think that "This Whole World" is probably one of the most sublime two minutes of music in the whole era of sound recordings, find almost every one Brian's contributions from around Sunflower through Holland delightful, am congenitally incapable of getting "Games Two Can Play" out of my head, and even have a real soft spot for "A Day In The Life Of A Tree".  But I think it's hard to deny that abandoning "Smile" was a crippling blow to Brian's confidence, and that that was both exacerbated by and contributed to his failing mental health.  "Smile" cast a huge shadow over him, and his finally coming to grips with it -- yes, with Darian's help and plenty of support -- is one of those life-redefining moments.

I mean hey, I've seen him on the Sydney Opera House stage, singing the coda to "Surf's Up" and genuinely beaming -- who would ever have imagined that even ten years ago?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[lance]

BWPS is great.

Brian Wilson is still talented, if damaged.

Accept it.

[Dancing Bear]

Why do you think "the mystique of Smile is gone"?

I don't -- Dancing Bear was the one who wrote "Gone is the mystique around Brian AND Smile."  Me, I think it's got plenty of mystique -- not so much in the how-could-you-possibly-fit-these-pieces-together end of things compared to the old days when that was the topic in the close quarters of BB/BW fandom, but as an awe-inspiring album.  And that mystique's spread to people who didn't really notice it before.

I How I see it: Smile is all about what it could have been. I think 40% of it - the stuff in the boots, anyway -  sounds unfinished and doesn't really rock my world. Now, the myth: Brian knew how to put those snippets together, and it all would make sense, with vocal melodies on top of instrumental tracks, edited together, if only he had had the time and/or will to finish the thing. Then, Smile 2004 and BWPS. Brian is back on board, he's supposed to remember how it was supposed to go, back then. But did he ever know? What if there was never a plot?

[The Heartical Don]

HD, I think a lot of us know that views of Brian can be extremely colored by sympathy/empathy for him and by the hope that he's still that great genius from the 60s. But I take issue with a couple of your points:

--I think BW 88 is a fantastic album, even 20 years after its release. Is it perfect? No. But that it is as good as it is, under the circumstances, is what deserves the praise.
-- I don't think your viewpoint is as extreme as SJS's viewpoint. I think a refusal to see anything positive in BW's current state is as bad as, if not worse than, a refusal to see anything negative.

Most of the apologists tend to be newer fans. Among people who have been at this for at least a couple of years, most are in the middle and are able to see that the situation is a lot more nuanced than some of the press would have us believe. (Good and evil sells magazines.) I suppose if your expectations or beliefs have been let down one too many times, you develop a very jaundiced view of the whole thing, but I think there are positive aspects to Brian's current output and state of mind that need to be acknowledged. I think some insiders end up overstating the negative in an attempt to cloud the rose-colored glasses of newer fans. I'm not going to apologize for loving TLOS (or even the X-Mas album) or thinking Brian was having a good time in the Black Cab or even thinking at Melinda basically has Brian's best interests at heart. Or for thinking that Mike is a bastard with some good qualities but limited talents rather than a misunderstood and neglected lyrical genius. The arguments in support of my opinions are legitimate. The truth is that no one will ever know what the truth is. It's too complicated for there to be one truth.
 

Hi Amy, thanks for your contribution to what in my eyes is an outstanding discussion. I've become hugely interested in the psychological/psychiatric side of things related to perception, opinion and judgment, esp. in the arts.
When commenting on SJS's posts I knew that he and I differ on crucial topics. That's not bad at all. But I tried to step in his shoes for a couple of moments, and also tried to see why we differ. I am 49 now, and became a fan in 1974, when I was 15. I'd say that the view of things for someone who began to like their sound in general with 'Kokomo' is different, out of necessity. I still can claim that I 'grew up with the band', albeit partially at best. They can't. (SJS, this is a general remark, not about you.)
For me, tracing back the various steps for bands like The Small Faces, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, Hendrix' Experience, Led Zeppelin, and countless others is extremely difficult, because I never was a fan proper. So when recently a co-worker at the Lab gave me a DVD of Led Zep in their prime, I watched it once, out of courtesy, and found it overlong, bland, dodgy sounding, and past its sell-by-date. Sounds harsh, but that's what I felt. Yet I value the taste of my colleage in general.
It cost me a long time to find admiration for 'Forever Changes', for the reasons listed above. I could not see what others obviously had seen in it for ages. But now I can say I like the strange tension that Arthur Lee created between seductive string and horn arrangements and charming melodies on the one hand, and some eerie, hidden menace in the lyrics and the vocal performance. Art, that's what it is.
One cannot relive (parts of) one's life, luckily so. But one of the periods (for more than one reason) that I would like to 'feel' again is 1988. To immerse myself in that solo LP, and feel the exuberant joy throughout the whole album. Now I can't do that anymore. 'Walkin' The Line', 'Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight', 'Let Your Hair Grow Long', heck, even 'Little Children' sound like very strained efforts to me. But I'm a fool for 'Love And Mercy', 'Melt Away', 'One For The Boys', and 'Rio Grande', make no mistake.

It's great to read all your replies here, folks. May the debate continue...

[absinthe_boy]

(I did slip a reference into "The Year Of Intelligent Tigers", though, where there's a mention that they're performing "Smile" at a music festival a few centuries from now.  "Whose reconstruction?"  "Hunt and Lane, I think..."  I wrote that bit in 2000, and it just goes to show how bad science fiction is at predicting the future!)

Yes, I read that book a couple of years ago and had a good chuckle at that part of the story.

It also goes to show...people were expected to "get" the SMiLE reference in the novel...so it and Brian are a part of popular culture.

I remember thinking "Hmm, just a few years after the book was written...and its already out of date! No need for a reconstruction now, Brian's done it!"

I still sometimes step back and think.......Yeah...Brian Wilson completed SMiLE...

[absinthe_boy]

Nor did I... and they didn't chart - the official UK album chart only recognises the top 100. Check out the UK LP chart book - they're not in it.

From wikipedia

"The UK Albums Chart is a list of albums ranked by sales in the United Kingdom. It is formulated by The Official UK Charts Company and a Top 200 published in ChartsPlus (only the Top 100 is counted in data sources)."

[Andrew G. Doe]

(only the Top 100 is counted in data sources)."

Just like I said. On the website, in the media, in the official album chart books, you'll only see the Top 100. What's so difficult to comprehend about this ? It's like saying "Marcella" was a #110 hit in the US Hot 100.

BTW, to hit the heights of #199 in the UK means the sales were probably about 199 too.

[Wilson Love]

Mike was the collab for the stuff that sold, but Van Dyke, Asher, hell even Murray and now Scott Bennett (you can argue that one) co-wrote the high-end art that put Brian among the Gods.

He ought to realise there's more to entertainment than making real good bread.

Yeah, so much garbage written by Brian and Mike, like "Warmth Of The Sun" and "Good Vibrations".
Yep, they were nobodies in '65 with Mike being the main collaborator.
Get a grip, it sold because the material was great.
Without Mike, Brian never even gets to the point of  making the "high-end art".
I love the way people try to re-write history and downplay Mikes' importance in the groups' sound and material.
I'd take '65 Brian/Beach Boys material over anything else. And I love the many phases of the group and Brians' solo material.

[b00ts]

Hey, buddy - you make some good points - Mike Love clearly had a knack for commerciality for a period there in the 60's, and for another quick hit in the late 80s -
I like his voice, I like a lot of the songs he has written and co-written, and I think he is an OK guy (although eccentric in his own way.)

I'm not just saying this because you are Mike Love - I really feel it - in fact, Mr. Love, I met you backstage at Westbury Music Fair in 1999! You guys put on a great show.

Ok - first question, Mike Love - what kind of audio interface were you using when you recorded the first-ever pro tools album, Summer In Paradise, on a Macintosh Quadra? One input at a time, I would imagine, right?

So, everybody, welcome Mr. Mike Love (who may have been attempting anonymity) to the board! Sure beats the hell out of David Mark's dogsitter, right?

b00ts

[joe_blow]

[
[/quote]

Orange Crate Art is not a Brian Wilson solo album....it's a Van Dyke Parks album on which Brian sings...you know that!


[/quote]

Does that mean Elvis Presley only sang on other people's records?

[Rocker]

Does that mean Elvis Presley only sang on other people's records?

Got to step in here as I think this is a very irritating comment as Presley produced his own stuff. No offense to the poster, just the message !

[The Shift]

Mike was the collab for the stuff that sold, but Van Dyke, Asher, hell even Murray and now Scott Bennett (you can argue that one) co-wrote the high-end art that put Brian among the Gods.
He ought to realise there's more to entertainment than making real good bread.

Yeah, so much garbage written by Brian and Mike, like "Warmth Of The Sun" and "Good Vibrations".
Yep, they were nobodies in '65 with Mike being the main collaborator.
Get a grip, it sold because the material was great.
Without Mike, Brian never even gets to the point of  making the "high-end art".
I love the way people try to re-write history and downplay Mikes' importance in the groups' sound and material.
I'd take '65 Brian/Beach Boys material over anything else. And I love the many phases of the group and Brians' solo material.

Sorry but I didn't say that Mike's lyrical contribution was garbage, nor was I trying to play down the importance of his contribution to the BBs' legacy, to Brian's development and maturation, and indeed to rock & pop history.
I was trying to imply that the material Brian wrote with Mike was commercial gold but what he collaborated on with the likes of VDP and Asher was ambrosia.
Some people will take BBs' 65 material over the superior stuff that was to come; if that wasn't the case the BBs would never have had the commercial success which served as a spring board for Brian to aspire to greater things. If it wasn't for those 45rpm-buying masses, he wouldn't have been able to move on to more mature projects like Pet Sounds and Smile.
You stay stuck in 1965 buddy - those of us who've evolved on to 1966/67 would like to peer back over our shoulders, say "Hi" and "Thanks"!

 

[John]

Wow, that was a pretty arrogant and lame post.

[The Shift]

It wasn't meant to read arrogant, just daft. hence the " " and not " ".   
 

[John]

Aha. My apologies then.

[joe_blow]

Does that mean Elvis Presley only sang on other people's records?

Got to step in here as I think this is a very irritating comment as Presley produced his own stuff. No offense to the poster, just the message !

Good point...then perhaps if OCA is NOT a BW solo album because all he did was the vocals, how many albums could that be said of with "solo" albums out there?

[carl r]

Yep, some people I know like his voice but find Brian and Carl's voice really annoying.
To borrow from a friend on the Blueboard, here's a little poem:

He's like a coiled-up cobra ready to strike
The voice in his head says "go tell 'em, Mike,
Who rocks the party, who wrote the song,
Hippy f****t scum should know they're wrong.
Oh, and peace on Earth. Merry Christmas, Everyone.

I like his voice, I like a lot of the songs he has written and co-written, and I think he is an OK guy (although eccentric in his own way.)

[Dancing Bear]

Does that mean Elvis Presley only sang on other people's records?

Got to step in here as I think this is a very irritating comment as Presley produced his own stuff. No offense to the poster, just the message !

Good point...then perhaps if OCA is NOT a BW solo album because all he did was the vocals, how many albums could that be said of with "solo" albums out there?

Ok. case in point: The Richard Harris albums that were written, arranged and produced by Jimmy Webb. Who's saying they're Jimmy Webb albums?

I guess the problem here is what's expected from an artist. We expect Brian to write, arrange and produce at least some of the albums he's been part of.

[Wilson Love]

Mike was the collab for the stuff that sold, but Van Dyke, Asher, hell even Murray and now Scott Bennett (you can argue that one) co-wrote the high-end art that put Brian among the Gods.
He ought to realise there's more to entertainment than making real good bread.

Yeah, so much garbage written by Brian and Mike, like "Warmth Of The Sun" and "Good Vibrations".
Yep, they were nobodies in '65 with Mike being the main collaborator.
Get a grip, it sold because the material was great.
Without Mike, Brian never even gets to the point of  making the "high-end art".
I love the way people try to re-write history and downplay Mikes' importance in the groups' sound and material.
I'd take '65 Brian/Beach Boys material over anything else. And I love the many phases of the group and Brians' solo material.

Sorry but I didn't say that Mike's lyrical contribution was garbage, nor was I trying to play down the importance of his contribution to the BBs' legacy, to Brian's development and maturation, and indeed to rock & pop history.
I was trying to imply that the material Brian wrote with Mike was commercial gold but what he collaborated on with the likes of VDP and Asher was ambrosia.
Some people will take BBs' 65 material over the superior stuff that was to come; if that wasn't the case the BBs would never have had the commercial success which served as a spring board for Brian to aspire to greater things. If it wasn't for those 45rpm-buying masses, he wouldn't have been able to move on to more mature projects like Pet Sounds and Smile.
You stay stuck in 1965 buddy - those of us who've evolved on to 1966/67 would like to peer back over our shoulders, say "Hi" and "Thanks"!

 

Well, evolved enlightened one, you speak as if  Beach Boys' successful (sales-wise) records are somehow inferior. Why? Because they sold more and appealed to more people? Bollocks
You may prefer "Smiley Smile" to "Summer Days" but that certainly doesn't make it superior to my ears.
To suggest that a preference to any particular phase of BBs music is being "stuck" is ludicrous. It all dates back decades, so what's your point? Beside, all great music is timeless.
While (as i've already stated), I enjoy all BB music, after '66 almost nothing hits me with the same"wow" effect that the earlier recordings did.