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Author Topic: TLOS "nods" to other songs  (Read 11103 times)
donald
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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2008, 06:36:11 AM »

I had this dream, singing with my brothers

Its finally here, that special season

Yeah. There is much here borrowed form other places.  But I love it.

Kind of reminds me of MIU and the MIU Christmas songs.

But I've been thinking of how many artists reference themselves or "borrow" from their earlier work.

Seems like anyone whos been around this many years is doing it.  Stones, James Taylor, Neil Young (talk about retreads) but I just keep eating it up.  I think people want to hear this sort of thing, they enjoy the familiar or a twist on a favorite riff.  Brings a smile.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2008, 10:21:32 AM »

The melodies of those two lines are actually somewhat different.

It's the descending chord patterns beneath them that are alike.

And it dates back further than Christmasy --

Those are the Love and Mercy chords. And the verses to Your Imagination.

The book about the music of Brian Wilson that came out a year or two ago is very spot on with this -- in the 80s, Brian started using a descending bass pattern in a lot of his songs. It's shared in all of the ones we mentioned. It seems to be a device he uses to get started on songs -- because few would argue that all of the songs we mentioned don't ultimately sound pretty different by the time you get to chorus and bridge.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 11:44:20 AM »

And I would like to retract some posts I made earlier --

"Morning Beat" is indeed "Walkin," from some 40 years ago. The tempo is different, the riff has been slightly altered, the vocal melody has been tweaked -- but damned if you can't sing one directly on top of the other. The bridge and chant sections of course are not included in "Walkin," but it's otherwise a definite re-use. Truly nothing ever goes to waste in the world of B. Wilson.
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donald
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 12:30:18 PM »

technical stuff aside....Christmassey sounds like southern california on those lines...

am I alone on this?  Do my ears deceive me?
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Wirestone
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 12:51:53 PM »

Donald -- Your ears do not deceive you. Those lines certainly sound similar -- not identical, but close enough to catch the ear. Some folks mentioned this over on the BW.com board too.

I'm going to take this opportunity to break down the new-old song ratio on TLOS.

Total songs (as in pieces that aren't linking tracks -- this excludes the narratives and CWTL).

11

Cover versions

1

(The title track, which has been re-arranged and abridged, according to BW.)

Total recycled songs

1

(This is "California Role," which was "Wondering What You're Up to Now" from the mid-80s. I don't think the original is in circulation, but I'll count it as a re-use.)

Total reworked songs

2

("Morning Beat" is a collage of "Walkin'" from the 60s, the chant from the 70s, and a new bridge and lyric approach. "Goin Home" takes the title line from the Paley sessions and merges that with riffs from "Proud Mary," "Rock and Roll Music" and a newly written bridge.)

Total new songs

7

The rest of them. Of those, two have strong nods to other songs -- "Live Let Live" to the title line of "Sail On Sailor" and "Southern California" to "Christmasy" and other "Love and Mercy" type tunes -- but are largely original.

This ratio, interestingly enough, is similar to "Imagination," where of 11 songs you had three covers of 60s material (one a cover of an unreleased tune, true) and 1 reworked collage of older fragments with new bits ("Happy Days.") On the bright side, though, the reworked material on TLOS has been far more creatively modified.

To make matters sweeter, we have a half-album's worth of tracks recorded during the same time. We have "Oh Mi Amor," "Message Man," and "Just Like Me and You" -- none of which (to my knowledge) are refashioned from past work. We have a rollicking, creative cover of "I'm Into Something Good." And we have the soundtrack version of "Live Let Live," which presents a much more expansive (if somewhat dryly recorded) version of the song.

I haven't been this excited about new BW work since the late 90s. And honestly, I think most of this stuff is better than the "Imagination" songs. (A lot of it is better than Paley stuff, too.)
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carl r
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2008, 01:36:24 PM »

I'm in agreement with you most of the way there. I wonder if in the future people will see Imagination as a "Sweet Insanity"-type deviation in a very erratic solo career whose highs deserve wider popular credit. Brian needed BWPS to get back on track. Any future retrospective, if it is comprehensive, will contain lots of very accomplished pop songs.

Having said that, I think only the very best of the new stuff (MAD,Live Let Live,Southern California) is as good as the Paley sessions, being a huge fan of most of those tracks. Were these released, the songs used in Imagination de-contaminated  and some of the vocals re-done, I think the result really would be the breakthrough. The new Pet Sounds. I really think they are that good.
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buddhahat
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2008, 01:37:42 PM »

I just skimmed a few posts in this thread so apologies if I'm repeating something or generally missing the point, but Brian has always recycled his own melodies. I started a topic a couple of years ago about what Smile Songs were related to other BB songs and it averaged that for every Smile song there were something like 3 or 4 other songs that borrowed from it. Some songs showed up in different manifestations within Smile or Smiley Smile, some like Wind Chimes had bits recycled only a year later (CWTL) and others such as Dada had offspring showing up decades after (Saturday Morning in the City). Personally I don't see any problem in the recycling that occurs in TLOS . It's obviously part of BW's writing technique (Marilyn says as much in one of the docs) and the fact a riff like Ow mama yama (or whatever it is) has been worked into a new song I see as a totally legitimate creative decision. I haven't heard the original version of California Role but I still don't see the problem with BW taking one of his own songs and reworking it. With GIOMH where a significant percentage of the material is recycled then that is clearly a problem, but imo it's a petty criticism of TLOS that the recycled elements somehow weaken it.

Anyway it's the details that make recycled songs entirely new. That "at 25" bridge transforms Going Home from just another BW soundalike into an entirely unique rock 'n' roll song.
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2008, 01:39:51 PM »

On a minor note, the call-and-response "until I found" part in "Midnight's Another Day" reminds me strongly of the "until I die" call-and-response in "Til I Die" right before the outro, when Brain cries it out in falsetto. To me, it's addressing that dark thought with a positive affirmation.
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Chris Brown
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2008, 01:50:14 PM »

On a minor note, the call-and-response "until I found" part in "Midnight's Another Day" reminds me strongly of the "until I die" call-and-response in "Til I Die" right before the outro, when Brain cries it out in falsetto. To me, it's addressing that dark thought with a positive affirmation.

Great catch, I wouldn't have thought of that!  "Midnight's Another Day" really does have a sort of yin/yang relationship with "Til I Die" when you think about it. 
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adamghost
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2008, 05:44:16 PM »

I've got one nobody's caught yet:  compare the first verse of "Good Kind of Love" to that of the unreleased "Our Team."  (Much better use!)
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the captain
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2008, 09:14:06 PM »

I've got one nobody's caught yet:  compare the first verse of "Good Kind of Love" to that of the unreleased "Our Team."  (Much better use!)
I love you, Adam, but if the notes V-I II III with an otherwise unrelated song are recycling ... I dunno.
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adamghost
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2008, 11:25:31 PM »

Oh come on man...not the chord progression alone (which isn't quite the same), but the scansion and the melody...

"We look like we know what we're doing...." compare that to the first line of "Good," whatever it is.

I got another one: 

"Live Let Live Not Die..."

"Roller Skating Child..."

By the way, I don't think any of these are egregious at all.  I don't believe there's any recycling on TLOS that's at all inappropriate or troubling.  It's just a fun exercise.  I've actually been tremendously affected by the record and if I had the time (I'm still on the road) I would write an essay about it.



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Wirestone
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2008, 11:30:19 PM »

At a certain point here, I think, we just get to how a particular songwriter likes to write his or her songs. I think in many of these cases, Brian was not consciously reviving some past phrasing or chord progression -- that's just how his songs come out. There are definitely times that it's conscious, though -- i.e., the callback to "Walkin'."
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adamghost
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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2008, 08:27:05 AM »

I totally agree.  I don't think there's that much conscious recycling going on.  As I said, there's nothing that strikes me as egregious.  Fun parlor game, though.

I have a question though that I'm curious about.  Maybe AGD knows.  There's a melodic part that repeats that goes "Roll...roll...rollin' round heaven all day."  I know that it refers back to the lyrics to "That Lucky Old Sun" but is this related to the 1974 BW/Kalinich tune "Rolling Up To Heaven" in any way?  I have never heard this unreleased track, but it got me wondering if that melodic fragment came from the earlier tune, given the lyrics were similar.  Or perhaps "Heaven" was originally inspired by "That Lucky Old Sun."  Anyone heard the '74 track?
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2008, 08:36:29 AM »

As far as I'm aware, "Rolling..." was an alternate title for "Ding Dang". But I'll ask Stevie.
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« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2008, 08:37:58 AM »

The early 70s 'Rollin up to Heaven' is that the one which is also called 'Hard times' and sounds a bit like Ding Dang, and htey also sing 'Alley oop' and 'Big tit' in it? If it is, I don't think it sounds much like it myself, Or is that called something else?
On a separate note I always thought Walkin' was an Al song that he got Brian to sing on? The verse melody of Walkin' is very much like Summertime Blues but at the end it has that morning beat bit.
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« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2008, 04:12:42 PM »

I know there's some melody and harmony ripped off from it, but does anybody else hear somebody actually saying "Rock, Roll, Rollin' on a riv-ver" in the background of "Goin' Home" near the end?  I think the harmony chant ends up there for a little while... which may mean that Brian actually did finally put "Proud Mary" on one of his albums, lol. 
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matt-zeus
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« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2008, 11:54:52 PM »

I know there's some melody and harmony ripped off from it, but does anybody else hear somebody actually saying "Rock, Roll, Rollin' on a riv-ver" in the background of "Goin' Home" near the end?  I think the harmony chant ends up there for a little while... which may mean that Brian actually did finally put "Proud Mary" on one of his albums, lol. 

Yes, hopefully he won't actually feel the need to work anymore on Proud Mary!
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