'Til I Die, Big Sur mark 1, Lady: drum machine.

[Mooger Fooger]

Why hatch an investigation when the investigation comes to you?

Very interesting.

Well, you know that the investigation you send out returns to you.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Why hatch an investigation when the investigation comes to you?

Very interesting.

Well, you know that the investigation you send out returns to you.

Yes...and almost exactly 6 years later, it comes back once more.

[Jay]

Now find one on eBay!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maestro-Rhythm-King-MRK-2-Funky-Analog-Drum-Machine-/270894643159?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f129437d7 

[Stephen W. Desper]

Before I hatch an investigation, does everybody agree that there's some kind of "electronic" beat going on the listed productions?

COMMENT:  We usually laid down a "click track" on the Multi-track first. Several reasons for this, (1) Dennis was not known for his steady rhythm, that is consistent enough for recording – stage OK, studio work demanded more clock-like performance. So everyone agreed to use a click track as a guide, even Dennis. This was not usually mixed into the final mix, but headphone leakage does accumulate as you stack tracks. This may be what you hear on some songs. However (2) a few songs were recorded around the time that Dennis managed to damage his hand by getting mad on the road over something and pushed his fist through a window. Some glass went through his hand and wrist. This meant his playing was almost next to none while it healed. The Rhythm King supplied rudimentary drum sound during this period. It should also be noted that (3) not all songs were recorded with the drums recorded first. So the click track was played in headphones as a rhythm guide only for any experimental vocal arranging or just working out the song. Sometimes this experimental time got so involved that no one wanted to scrap it and start again, but rather wanted to just keep building on what had been done. So the click track remained, but not used as part of the song, just headphone leakage. ~swd

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Stephen,

I think one example of where the Rhythm King was used as a click track and then mixed out is H.E.L.P.  When I was working with Alan, I heard a few early roughs with that characteristic analog drum machine sound left up.  It doesn't really work on that song, but on Lady and Til I Die it certainly does.

One question that I still have, even six years after I originally started this thread, is about the drums on "All I Wanna Do" which sound very mechanical, but not like the rhythm king.  Again, when I was working with Alan, I had access to the old track sheets and console tape notations, and I think there was a "Drums R" and a "Drums L" on two of the original 8-track tracks.  So I guess it is some sort of acoustic "drumming" but still, it sounds so precise and unchanging it's almost like a loop.

[hypehat]

Another instance of that would be the first drumbeat in Do It Again (the more organic drum sound that comes in on the second line sidetracks from it) - that's just processed drums, right? But it's dead on the beat and the processing sounds so electronic.... in 1968!

[Alan Smith]

Another instance of that would be the first drumbeat in Do It Again (the more organic drum sound that comes in on the second line sidetracks from it) - that's just processed drums, right? But it's dead on the beat and the processing sounds so electronic.... in 1968!

Totally amazing!!!  The Timothy White book (Nearest Faraway Place) says "Brian...devised a distinctive production signature by running a series of press rolls on a snare drum thorugh a tape-delay system, achieving a sexy metallic buzz that was sandwiched with a clap track to make the single seem to detonate" - KaBOOM!

[Stephen W. Desper]

Another instance of that would be the first drumbeat in Do It Again (the more organic drum sound that comes in on the second line sidetracks from it) - that's just processed drums, right? But it's dead on the beat and the processing sounds so electronic.... in 1968!

Totally amazing!!!  The Timothy White book (Nearest Faraway Place) says "Brian...devised a distinctive production signature by running a series of press rolls on a snare drum thorugh a tape-delay system, achieving a sexy metallic buzz that was sandwiched with a clap track to make the single seem to detonate" - KaBOOM!

COMMENT:  I really hate it when authors just make up stuff to fulfill some fantasy they envision about history. The Timothy White book is just plain wrong in every way on this.  First of all I just posted, that for many songs we recorded a click track that was used by everyone, including the drummer, to keep the beat on-clock. So of course it is a steady beat.

A second beef I have is that many of you fans would do yourselves a world of service if you would take an evening or two and go back read some of the early posts by myself and others. If you would, the answers to some of these repetitious questions would be answered before they came to mind.

I have answered this before, but in the interest of correctness, I will do it again!

The Do It Again basic tracking was done and some of the vocals were beginning to be added. About mid-afternoon everyone decided to take a lunch break. In their absence, I got out the new machine I had ordered from The Netherlands, made by Norelco for Ambisonic delay. It has one record and eight adjustable playback heads, plus a little mixer. Photos are posted in the archives. I mostly used it for concert work, but in this case I thought a series of virgin delays of a few milliseconds each, in succession, would make for an interesting and compelling drum sound. I set it up and made the effect, recording it onto the multi-track. When everyone came back from eating, I played it for them. They liked it a lot and thereafter it was part of the song. 

(1) I’m sorry, but I will take the credit due me, not the “distinctive production signature of Brian’s devising” the White book claims. In fact, it was that effect that sealed my contract for engineering with the Beach Boys.
(2) There was no clap track. More made up bullshit.
(3) The White book quote you cite, makes it sound as if the drums were played “to the effect.” This was not the case. Just the reverse is true. The effect was “played to the drums.”
(4) Don’t believe all this junk you read from authors quoting knowledge through second or third party sources. Most of the time it is just documented conjecture. Supposition is not fact. You do know that most of these Beach Boy books are written on contract, that is, the author is put under contract by a book publisher to write on a certain subject the publisher believes will sell some books. The author then interviews a lot of people and tries to put it all together. The White book is a typical example of making up stuff just to fill the page. By the way, they get paid by the number of words used. ~swd

[Alan Smith]

Totally amazing!!!  The Timothy White book (Nearest Faraway Place) says "Brian...devised a distinctive production signature by running a series of press rolls on a snare drum thorugh a tape-delay system, achieving a sexy metallic buzz that was sandwiched with a clap track to make the single seem to detonate" - KaBOOM!

COMMENT:  I really hate it when authors just make up stuff to fulfill some fantasy they envision about history. The Timothy White book is just plain wrong in every way on this.  First of all I just posted, that for many songs we recorded a click track that was used by everyone, including the drummer, to keep the beat on-clock. So of course it is a steady beat.

A second beef I have is that many of you fans would do yourselves a world of service if you would take an evening or two and go back read some of the early posts by myself and others. If you would, the answers to some of these repetitious questions would be answered before they came to mind.

I have answered this before, but in the interest of correctness, I will do it again!

The Do It Again basic tracking was done and some of the vocals were beginning to be added. About mid-afternoon everyone decided to take a lunch break. In their absence, I got out the new machine I had ordered from The Netherlands, made by Norelco for Ambisonic delay. It has one record and eight adjustable playback heads, plus a little mixer. Photos are posted in the archives. I mostly used it for concert work, but in this case I thought a series of virgin delays of a few milliseconds each, in succession, would make for an interesting and compelling drum sound. I set it up and made the effect, recording it onto the multi-track. When everyone came back from eating, I played it for them. They liked it a lot and thereafter it was part of the song. 

(1) I’m sorry, but I will take the credit due me, not the “distinctive production signature of Brian’s devising” the White book claims. In fact, it was that effect that sealed my contract for engineering with the Beach Boys.
(2) There was no clap track. More made up bullsh*t.
(3) The White book quote you cite, makes it sound as if the drums were played “to the effect.” This was not the case. Just the reverse is true. The effect was “played to the drums.”
(4) Don’t believe all this junk you read from authors quoting knowledge through second or third party sources. Most of the time it is just documented conjecture. Supposition is not fact. You do know that most of these Beach Boy books are written on contract, that is, the author is put under contract by a book publisher to write on a certain subject the publisher believes will sell some books. The author then interviews a lot of people and tries to put it all together. The White book is a typical example of making up stuff just to fill the page. By the way, they get paid by the number of words used. ~swd

My apologies, Mr Desper - you are absolutely correct about my inexcuseable lack of on-site research, despite recent advice from the older residents; sorry to make your beef list.

But, also, thank you for the precise timeline and the advice re the approach of some authors - A

[Custom Machine]

The Do It Again basic tracking was done and some of the vocals were beginning to be added. About mid-afternoon everyone decided to take a lunch break. In their absence, I got out the new machine I had ordered from The Netherlands, made by Norelco for Ambisonic delay. It has one record and eight adjustable playback heads, plus a little mixer. Photos are posted in the archives. I mostly used it for concert work, but in this case I thought a series of virgin delays of a few milliseconds each, in succession, would make for an interesting and compelling drum sound. I set it up and made the effect, recording it onto the multi-track. When everyone came back from eating, I played it for them. They liked it a lot and thereafter it was part of the song. 

(1) I’m sorry, but I will take the credit due me, not the “distinctive production signature of Brian’s devising” the White book claims. In fact, it was that effect that sealed my contract for engineering with the Beach Boys. ...

And thank you, Stephen, for devising one of the coolest sounding percussive song intros in the history of recorded music.

[Mahalo]

What Custom Machine said...   

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Stephen, I, and most people on here know that the DIA drum sound was down to you, so don't worry. For anyone with more than a passing interest in the technical side of the Beach Boys recording career, the Steve Desper thread is required reading.

BTW, how do you feel about it being sampled for the new recording? It is such a distinctive and defining part of the original song.

[hypehat]

Thanks Stephen - I have been known to read your thread from time to time, but was chiming in on 'amazing electronic-sounding drums in BB's albums'! Custom Machine is right, that beat kicks so much ass.

[Autotune]

Stephen, I, and most people on here know that the DIA drum sound was down to you, so don't worry. For anyone with more than a passing interest in the technical side of the Beach Boys recording career, the Steve Desper thread is required reading.

BTW, how do you feel about it being sampled for the new recording? It is such a distinctive and defining part of the original song.

Was it sampled? Has that been confirmed?

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen, I, and most people on here know that the DIA drum sound was down to you, so don't worry. For anyone with more than a passing interest in the technical side of the Beach Boys recording career, the Steve Desper thread is required reading.

BTW, how do you feel about it being sampled for the new recording? It is such a distinctive and defining part of the original song.

Was it sampled? Has that been confirmed?

COMMENT:  I don't know if it has been sampled or not. Whatever, the drum sound is the intellectual property of The Beach Boys, so it is their feeling about a drum sample of DIA that you should be asking.

As you may know I also engineered for Frank Zappa. And as you may also know, he testified before Congress on this subject and was influential for some of the laws concerning sampling. For the most part I agree with with Frank's statements.   ~swd

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Stephen, I, and most people on here know that the DIA drum sound was down to you, so don't worry. For anyone with more than a passing interest in the technical side of the Beach Boys recording career, the Steve Desper thread is required reading.

BTW, how do you feel about it being sampled for the new recording? It is such a distinctive and defining part of the original song.

Was it sampled? Has that been confirmed?

COMMENT:  I don't know if it has been sampled or not. Whatever, the drum sound is the intellectual property of The Beach Boys, so it is their feeling about a drum sample of DIA that you should be asking.

As you may know I also engineered for Frank Zappa. And as you may also know, he testified before Congress on this subject and was influential for some of the laws concerning sampling. For the most part I agree with with Frank's statements.   ~swd

I should have clarified, I meant more does it make you feel good / proud that they recognised the intro as the signature sound of the song? So much so that they felt they had to use or recreate it again.....or should that read do it again.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen, I, and most people on here know that the DIA drum sound was down to you, so don't worry. For anyone with more than a passing interest in the technical side of the Beach Boys recording career, the Steve Desper thread is required reading.

BTW, how do you feel about it being sampled for the new recording? It is such a distinctive and defining part of the original song.

Was it sampled? Has that been confirmed?

COMMENT:  I don't know if it has been sampled or not. Whatever, the drum sound is the intellectual property of The Beach Boys, so it is their feeling about a drum sample of DIA that you should be asking.

As you may know I also engineered for Frank Zappa. And as you may also know, he testified before Congress on this subject and was influential for some of the laws concerning sampling. For the most part I agree with with Frank's statements.   ~swd

I should have clarified, I meant more does it make you feel good / proud that they recognised the intro as the signature sound of the song? So much so that they felt they had to use or recreate it again.....or should that read do it again.

COMMENT:   The drum effect has long since become a sonic signature for the intro of this song. My pride was forty years ago; the day the Beach Boys liked the effect and included it as part and parcel of the song. I’m not up on all that has gone on recently, but I assume the effect is still used in any redo of the song. The Do It Again I recorded was with six Beach Boys, all active in the recording. The digital age was years away. That to me is the real Do It Again. There's a personal involvement, you know.

Today such effects are just a push button away. But back in the analog days, it took 150 pounds of equipment, ten patches, and several I/O module positions of the console to realize this effect. I will say that I was disappointed to NOT hear it at a recent Brian concert I attended since it is so easy to do in digital. Oh well…

Story Time.

Just as I surprised the Beach Boys with this effect that day in the studio when they returned from lunch, on the road I did the same thing. I remember that I had spent some time behind the scenes working out how I would add this sound to the mix during concert performances or live!. We only did a couple of performances of Do It Again without the effect. After I had worked it out, I decided to try it -- unannounced. I was ready on the downbeat of the song one night and really pushed the level up in the hall and through the stage monitors. Dennis heard it right away and played the effect for all he could with a big smile on his face  , adding a little extra flair to the drum sticks. I remember Carl looking right at the console and pointing to me and giving me a big thumbs up signal . From then on I knew I had their approval. Within a few performances, I worked out my moves, Dennis worked it out so that he would play the correct snare and tom beats, to mimic the record  . And, Michael would always give the same introduction. This was my cue that Do It Again was up next. The intro gave me about 60 seconds to make physical patch changes and re-adjust half-a-dozen knobs on the console -- adjusted midway. I could "tune-it-up" wtih in two beats. This is live; 25,000 to 45,000 in the audience, live. If I needed more time I would buzz the stage manager on our intercom who would give Mike the high-sign to ad-lib. And we pulled it off night after night.

I say that I needed a little extra time to make all the adjustments and re-patching during a live concert because I also used the delay machine to give Carl or Alan a double sound to their singing. I don't believe any other traveling band used this technique, but to me it was a "must" to any Beach Boy performance. It's so much a part of their sound. It’s amazing how much a delay added to a voice, in a live setting, will thicken the vocal sound and give it that dual blend sound, which for the Beach Boys singing group is very much a part of their records. (And, by the way, I learned that a longer delay was required in very live or reverberant halls, but if you extended the double time-delay length, you could overcome the blending of the voice from the natural reverberation of the hall, and still get the thicker sound) So for adding the double or live over-dub sound to Carl or Alan, it required that the heads be physically moved along the tape run path. But for Do It Again, the heads had to be re-adjusted, seven more patches added and all the balancing be done before the song started. Moving the heads on the Norelco was a pain because you had to use a little Alan-wrench to make the adjustment. This was sometimes a little nerving when the lights were low, or I might drop the dam tool or Michael was running out of commentary on stage. But we did manage to pull it off to do it again, and again, and again.

So apart from the idea that we (the singers and the engineer) were performing the song and its intro signature to concert goers just like the record, what this actually did was to boost the energy on stage. The performance may be a little off, but then came Do It Again. As soon as that Buzzzz, buzz, buzz, Buzzzz sound came on, it was ON. The stage energy was up and the vocals were back on track. What a great song! 

Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

[D409]

Thanks for sharing that insight with us, Stephen, very enlightening !

[guitarfool2002]

I just wanted to say this has turned into a terrific thread, I love this kind of discussion. And it's great to see some of the info posted again, as a reminder of some of the great info posted in other threads from the past.

Stephen, I think another poster may have been asking what you thought of samples like this one called "Remember", from the band Air...featuring your drum sounds sampled as well as some really nice Vocoder work...like a combination of the BB's and E.L.O. with some Revolver guitars thrown in the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4QVSXY6cRw

One question I had was about John Guerin...he is on the AFM contract for Do It Again having played drums and percussion, I was wondering if you recall what role he played if any in addition to Dennis' drum part.

[Stephen W. Desper]

I just wanted to say this has turned into a terrific thread, I love this kind of discussion. And it's great to see some of the info posted again, as a reminder of some of the great info posted in other threads from the past.

Stephen, I think another poster may have been asking what you thought of samples like this one called "Remember", from the band Air...featuring your drum sounds sampled as well as some really nice Vocoder work...like a combination of the BB's and E.L.O. with some Revolver guitars thrown in the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4QVSXY6cRw

One question I had was about John Guerin...he is on the AFM contract for Do It Again having played drums and percussion, I was wondering if you recall what role he played if any in addition to Dennis' drum part.

COMMENT: About "Remember" clip. I just finished listening to it. The drum effect is not too hard to make, so it could be original. But let's assume it's a sample. Well . . . it is an interesting use of the effect. For me it's continuous use for 95% of the song gets annoying. Enough is enough! I think the Beach Boy's use of this effect is much more pleasing, musical, and tasteful. So all I can say is that since the producers of this sampled, original, compositon thought is best to use it throughout their song, they should send me the nice McIntosh controller/amplifier, which I had to look at from beginning to end. ?? What was that all about ??  ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

I just wanted to say this has turned into a terrific thread, I love this kind of discussion. And it's great to see some of the info posted again, as a reminder of some of the great info posted in other threads from the past.

Stephen, I think another poster may have been asking what you thought of samples like this one called "Remember", from the band Air...featuring your drum sounds sampled as well as some really nice Vocoder work...like a combination of the BB's and E.L.O. with some Revolver guitars thrown in the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4QVSXY6cRw

One question I had was about John Guerin...he is on the AFM contract for Do It Again having played drums and percussion, I was wondering if you recall what role he played if any in addition to Dennis' drum part.

COMMENT:   Don't recall the name John Guerin. Could have recorded a drum scratch track or sweetened Dennis' drums, or played the tambourine. I'll check my session logs when time permits. Was this during the time Dennis hurt his hand and could not hold a stick?   ~swd

[guitarfool2002]

I just wanted to say this has turned into a terrific thread, I love this kind of discussion. And it's great to see some of the info posted again, as a reminder of some of the great info posted in other threads from the past.

Stephen, I think another poster may have been asking what you thought of samples like this one called "Remember", from the band Air...featuring your drum sounds sampled as well as some really nice Vocoder work...like a combination of the BB's and E.L.O. with some Revolver guitars thrown in the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4QVSXY6cRw

One question I had was about John Guerin...he is on the AFM contract for Do It Again having played drums and percussion, I was wondering if you recall what role he played if any in addition to Dennis' drum part.

COMMENT:   Don't recall the name John Guerin. Could have recorded a drum scratch track or sweetened Dennis' drums, or played the tambourine. I'll check my session logs when time permits. Was this during the time Dennis hurt his hand and could not hold a stick?   ~swd

One book lists the session where Guerin played as June 12, 1968 at Brian's home studio, but that same book/source says they did not know how the drum sound on Do It Again was achieved, so the facts are obviously shaky. The AFM contract (c-man has apparently seen it, I have not) lists Guerin as playing drums, woodblock, and tambourine, but I haven't seen the date listed on that specific contract.

If the June 12, 1968 date is correct with John Guerin, that would be just over a month after he recorded the song he may be best known for, the theme to Hawaii Five-0 ( I assumed that was Hal Blaine for years...). I was curious how he got called in to Brian's house, as he was doing other sessions around LA but I don't know if he had done any Beach Boys work before Do It Again.

About the video with the McIntosh, that was the "cleanest" version of the song I could find on YouTube on short notice! I don't understand the video either, but it would sure be nice to have that McIntosh.

[Jay]

Mr. Desper, thanks for that cool story. It must have been awsome to see Carl point at you and give the thumbs up sign. I wonder, how did you feel about the group doing Do It Again without that effect, and just a simple drum beat? I've actually only heard a live version with that sound effect once, in footage from a show at the Olympia in 1969.

[orange22]

Stephen, great story on rigging up the effect live. Thank you for sharing!