Ideas for a Smile boxset - BWPS + Beach Boys vocals?!! (hypothetical, of course)

[buddhahat]

If, and it's obviously a big if at this point in time, a Smile boxset were to be compiled for release, I think the compilers would have a tough job thinking of a way of putting all the smile sessions together that would appeal to both hardcore and the more casual Beach Boys fan. I think there's the fundamental problem of the incompleteness of Smile to get around for one thing. It's not as if you can have one disc devoted to the finished album as happened with the Pet Sounds box. And also do you ignore BWPS, which is, whether you like it or not, part of the Smile story now?

Personally I think it would be brilliant if the other Beach Boys were cajoled into putting their vocals over BWPS. Basically Mike, Bruce, Al would replace some of the BW leads, and maybe do the backing vox too, or just some of the key backing vox. I know this is an idea that may horrify certain fans (Sheriff John Stone springs to mind!) but just hear me out. Primarily it would be the kind of 'big deal' that the hype machine could really get behind in marketing a Smile box: The last piece of the puzzle, Smile is now truly finished, etc. etc. Secondly, it would be the closest thing we're ever going to get to a 'new' Beach Boys album, and the genius of it is that they don't even have to work with each other, hell Brian wouldn't even have to do anything as you could just keep some of his existing leads, which I'm sure would suit him no end. Thirdly it would be a good way of reconciling the original Smile project with BWPS, and maybe would appeal more to those in the 'Brian camp' than a purely Beach Boys oriented release.

Of course this is pure fantasy land as there are many obstacles I imagine. Firstly BWPS is on a different label as the original sessions, so this probably renders the whole idea unworkable.

Secondly how eager would Mike, Bruce and Al be to add their vocals to BWPS? As a matter of pride I suspect this idea would appeal to none of them, but then Mike did moan that he was disappointed Brian hadn't involved his old band-mates in BWPS so you never know.

Anyway this is my totally unfeasible concept for a Smile box: All the original 66/67 sessions arranged much the same way they did with the PS box, and then a disc with the alleged 'finished' album i.e. BWPS with official Beach Boys vocals (hell, even get Blondie Chaplin to do a lead!). You could then have a booklet telling the entire Smile story from 1966 right to present day. Personally I think it would be an odd omission from a Smile box if BWPS were missing.

I suspect this is going to be one of those threads that bombs without a trace but I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on the prospect of Beach Boys re-recording vocals for BWPS. Would you be interested to hear it or just appalled by the whole idea? Alternatively what's the best way to present Smile material for a boxset release? Do you acknowledge BWPS or just stick to the 60s sessions? Would you include Smiley Smile sessions? Perhaps as the 'finished album', instead of BWPS you could have a new stereo mix of Smiley Smile instead!

[mikeyj]

And also do you ignore BWPS, which is, whether you like it or not, part of the Smile story now?

In my opinion you have to ignore BWPS if they were to compile a SMiLE box set. They are two different things. SMiLE was a Beach Boys project and since we already have BWPS in a completed form, why would we want more BWPS? I mean the reason (at least for me) that I like to hear the SMiLE sessions is that a lot of it we don't have. And even some of the "complete" versions aren't exactly finished. If SMiLE had come out originally in 1967, I wouldn't be so hungry for a sessions box set. Would it be nice? Sure. Would it be fascinating? Sure. But just like the Pet Sounds Sessions box set I would still rather listen to the album most of the time but obviously we don't have that Beach Boys SMiLE album now do we? So the next best thing for me has to be a Beach Boys SMiLE sessions box set.

Personally I think it would be brilliant if the other Beach Boys were cajoled into putting their vocals over BWPS. Basically Mike, Bruce, Al would replace some of the BW leads, and maybe do the backing vox too, or just some of the key backing vox. I know this is an idea that may horrify certain fans (Sheriff John Stone springs to mind!) but just hear me out. Primarily it would be the kind of 'big deal' that the hype machine could really get behind in marketing a Smile box: The last piece of the puzzle, Smile is now truly finished, etc. etc. Secondly, it would be the closest thing we're ever going to get to a 'new' Beach Boys album, and the genius of it is that they don't even have to work with each other, hell Brian wouldn't even have to do anything as you could just keep some of his existing leads, which I'm sure would suit him no end. Thirdly it would be a good way of reconciling the original Smile project with BWPS, and maybe would appeal more to those in the 'Brian camp' than a purely Beach Boys oriented release.

Sorry to disagree again but I don't think this is a good idea either. Firstly, I highly doubt that the people who were involved with BWPS would want this. That's just like saying "hey Brian's camp, we really think Brian's lead vocals weren't adequate enough so were just going to get Al, Bruce and Mike to redo them." And secondly as I say, BWPS - to me at least - is a different project. Same/similar material but a different project. And unfortunately it's just not the same without Carl and Denny. As someone has pointed out before, it was amazing just how few Mike lead vocals there were on SMiLE and Bruce+Al didn't get any leads either. I just think the SMiLE sessions box set should be presented as what was completed or using the best and most 'complete' takes of unfinished songs. That's why I liked the POB/Bambu release. It respected the work and didn't just say "hey sorry Denny, but we're just going to add some guitar solos on your songs." Obviously there was the Taylor track but that was presented as a bonus and the original track was also on there as its own stand alone track.

Also, what are you going to do for backing tracks? Are you going to include the original Beach Boys tracks and just substitute the BWPS tracks into any incomplete parts? That would be pretty jarring I would think. Or maybe keep the BWPS tracks? But doesn't that just defeat the purpose of a SMiLE sessions box set?

Would you be interested to hear it or just appalled by the whole idea? Alternatively what's the best way to present Smile material for a boxset release? Do you acknowledge BWPS or just stick to the 60s sessions? Would you include Smiley Smile sessions? Perhaps as the 'finished album', instead of BWPS you could have a new stereo mix of Smiley Smile instead!

As is pretty clear I would be pretty disappointed if that was how it was done as I just want it to be presented as 'the most complete versions/takes of each song/track. And then have the most interesting sessions, backing tracks and a cappella mixes where possible. I like the idea of a Smiley Smile stereo mix but that should have it's own release. I think a SMiLE box set should, purely and simply, stick to the SMiLE sessions by The Beach Boys.

Of course every fan is different but I just wouldn't like this idea. I think if something like this were to be released, then it could have it's own separate release. Brian, Mike, Al and Bruce present BWPS. Of course I wouldn't be too crash hot on that idea either but I would rather that than have it mashed in with all the original SMiLE stuff.

[The Shift]

Not convinced by the idea either -  it wouldn't be a solution, it'd be yet another version.  Why not get the Wrecking Crew to re-record some of their parts too?

[buddhahat]

Haha it is a crackpot idea and I didn't envisage a flood of optimistic responses. From a purist p.o.v. it is, for the reasons Mikey J listed, rather unappealing. However, personally I don't find the Smile sessions and BWPS to be totally mutually exclusive things. I agree that had they finished Smile in 67 it would have been a very different composition, but I strongly believe that BWPS as we have it now is the completed Smile, finished by the original composers (with help from Darian of course) and as such it is related to the original sessions. I might prefer the sound of the original productions but, as they amounted to no finished album then, by default they are (imo) sketches for the finished composition which is BWPS. Therefore if you were to have a box-set devoted to Smile, I don't think it's absurd that BWPS be represented in some way. Ideally, as the biggest moan about BWPS was the inferiority of the vocals compared to the originals, I think it'd be great if the remaining Beach Boys were to replace some of the parts, whilst keeping the BWPS backing tracks. I do concede however that this poses many problems in itself and aesthetically might be off-putting for many fans.

Ultimately I guess the most sensible way to present a 66/67 Smile release would be as "The Smile Sessions", but there is still the problem of how to sequence those sessions. Arranging them chronologically is probably the most logical solution but I doubt that would make for the most flowing sequence. Also the only Brian Wilson/beach Boy mixes of the complete songs, discounting Smiley Smile, are Good Vibrations, Cabinessence, Heroes & Villains (alt version), Surf's Up demo and Our Prayer . If it was to be an absolutely purist session only release, we'd lose a complete Wonderful, Worms, Vegatables and so on - all those songs would be fragmented. Of course the logical solution is to use the existing Mark Linnett mixes for the fragmented sessions but, post BWPS I think some of those Mark Linnett mixes become redundant. For example he did a great job in sequencing Vegetables for the Good Vibrations box. As there was no idea of how Brian intended to finish the song in 66/67 it was necessary for somebody to piece it together in a presentable form. But now we have the version of Vegetables on BWPS, Which is the truer version? If we're talking about composition, then surely the BWPS version of Vegetables is a truer Brian Wilson/VDP composition than the Mark Linnett mix on the GV boxset? My point is I don't think it is easy to say that BWPS has nothing to do with a Smile sessions release, if somebody is going to attempt to piece the original sessions together to create 'whole' versions of fragmented songs such as Worms. I say either present the sessions as sessions and keep songs such as Worms fragmented, or if you're going to attempt to piece the songs together, use the BWPS versions as a template, and if you're going to do that then why not use the whole of BWPS as a template, i.e present a 'finished' album using the original sessions arranged like BWPS (not sure if this is technically possible) or get the remaining Beach Boys to add their vocals to the existing recording of BWPS.

[pixletwin]

There is a certain member here who took much of the backing track of BWPS and added the original SMiLE vocals in most of the leads (ie young Brian singing Surf's Up over the BWPS backing track). Its absolutely brilliant.

[mikeyj]

However, personally I don't find the Smile sessions and BWPS to be totally mutually exclusive things. I agree that had they finished Smile in 67 it would have been a very different composition, but I strongly believe that BWPS as we have it now is the completed Smile, finished by the original composers (with help from Darian of course) and as such it is related to the original sessions.

That's all well and good if you think that as everyone is entitled to like what they want to like etc.. but why - if BWPS "now is the completed Smile" - would you need a version with Mike, Al and Bruce on vocals? I don't understand what you want? And if it IS the completed version (and after all it is tied together in one nice little album) then why does it NEED to be part of the SMiLE sessions box set? I could understand if you wanted outtakes of the sessions from BWPS included on the box set but they would hardly be interesting in my opinion. The whole reason the actual sessions were so interesting during the Pet Sounds era etc.. were that it is fun to hear Brian develop the songs and direct the musicians etc.. but with BWPS the songs were on the whole already worked out and a 23/24 year old Brian at the peak of his powers wasn't producing the sessions. And I'm guessing Darian/Brian/Van Dyke etc.. didn't develop the songs in the studio like Brian did in the 60's as I'm sure they did that beforehand at home or whatever.

I might prefer the sound of the original productions but, as they amounted to no finished album then, by default they are (imo) sketches for the finished composition which is BWPS. Therefore if you were to have a box-set devoted to Smile, I don't think it's absurd that BWPS be represented in some way.

Again I still don't see why BWPS needs to presented on a SMiLE sessions box set when you already have the completed work there for you? Think about this, if BWPS was not included, then we could potentially get more space for sessions, backing tracks etc...

Also the only Brian Wilson/beach Boy mixes of the complete songs, discounting Smiley Smile, are Good Vibrations, Cabinessence, Heroes & Villains (alt version), Surf's Up demo and Our Prayer . If it was to be an absolutely purist session only release, we'd lose a complete Wonderful, Worms, Vegatables and so on - all those songs would be fragmented. Of course the logical solution is to use the existing Mark Linnett mixes for the fragmented sessions but, post BWPS I think some of those Mark Linnett mixes become redundant. For example he did a great job in sequencing Vegetables for the Good Vibrations box. As there was no idea of how Brian intended to finish the song in 66/67 it was necessary for somebody to piece it together in a presentable form. But now we have the version of Vegetables on BWPS, Which is the truer version? If we're talking about composition, then surely the BWPS version of Vegetables is a truer Brian Wilson/VDP composition than the Mark Linnett mix on the GV boxset?

I agree that SMiLE is nowhere near completed. But I still think that where there is no finished version of a song then they should just present it in it's most finished form or Mark should compile a mix that he (and others) thinks is best. So I see no problem using the Good Vibes box set versions of Wonderful, Wind Chimes etc...

But to be totally honest whenever I hear people say "I want a SMiLE box set" I never think "wow, maybe then we could have a finished version!". I just don't see why there HAS to be a finished version on one of the discs. Pet Sounds, yes I understand that because the album WAS finished. SMiLE was never finished and I think that is the way it should remain. We are never going to get a finished Beach Boys version no matter how hard we try. SMiLE was so spur of the moment and Brian was in the peak of his powers so who knows what he was going to do next on SMiLE? Maybe there would've been another 5 songs written and Cabinessence and a few others would be dropped from the album lineup? My point being, we are never going to get SMiLE as it was intended back in 1967.

I say either present the sessions as sessions and keep songs such as Worms fragmented

Well yes as I have stated before I am of the opinion that we should just keep these songs fragmented. In the end I think the 'original' SMiLE was incomplete and should be left that way. It just wasn't meant to be.

And to be honest I like it that way and I think a lot of people do. That's the whole reason that people talk about SMiLE so much because there is so many "what ifs" and so many people seem to like doing their own SMiLE mixes and so I think that if they just put the best possible versions of songs/tracks on the box set, then people could compile their own SMiLE mixes like they always have, but with better sounding pieces to work with. I just don't see why some people say "now that BWPS has come out, we know what Brian was thinking and so we can compile a Beach Boys version based on that". That just doesn't make sense to me

[Aegir]

If it's a boxset we can Mike everyone happy. A bunch of discs of the 66/67 sessions, a disc of what Smile would sound like if it were completed in 1967, a disc of BWPS sessions, BWPS, BWPS live, a modern BBPS with Mike, Bruce, and Al on it, and then a live BBPS (with Mike's Good Vibrations lyrics), and throw in a "reunited Beach Boys perform their greatest hits" disc. I'd buy it in a second, no matter how much it cost. But then again, I'd buy a CD of Mike and Bruce singing the Milli Vanilli songbook.

[buddhahat]

If it's a boxset we can Mike everyone happy. A bunch of discs of the 66/67 sessions, a disc of what Smile would sound like if it were completed in 1967, a disc of BWPS sessions, BWPS, BWPS live, a modern BBPS with Mike, Bruce, and Al on it, and then a live BBPS (with Mike's Good Vibrations lyrics), and throw in a "reunited Beach Boys perform their greatest hits" disc. I'd buy it in a second, no matter how much it cost. But then again, I'd buy a CD of Mike and Bruce singing the Milli Vanilli songbook.

Haha that would be the all encompassing Smilebox. You left out the Durrie Parks acetates though, and Mike and Al's for that matter!

Seriously though I think this thread raises an interesting question (for me anyway).

I think most people agree that the most honest presentation of the Smile sessions (for a hypothetical 'Smile Box' release) would be in their pure fragmented state leaving incomplete songs such as Worms in fragments. I think it's more likely that the compilers of a sessions release would try to mix the incomplete songs into more playable versions, similar to the mixes Mark Linnett did for the GV box. These hypothetical mixes could either be done as:

1. The GV box ones i.e. trying to give an impression of what Brian was aiming to do in 66/67 ( i.e. GV Box versions of Worms, Vegetables), or as
2. Playable medleys of miscellaneous sections (GV Box: Heroes Sections) or
3. These mixes could use BWPS as a template. For example instead of Heroes Sections that incorporates Gee, Prelude to fade, we'd have the same sections of Heroes mixed to replicate the BWPS version of H&V.

So my question is: Which 'Smile Box' would you prefer? A pure fragmented sessions release, one that includes GV box style mixes that attempt to guess at what Brian was aiming for in 67, one that has BWPS style mixes of the original sessions, or maybe a mixture of GV box and BWPS style mixes? My point is whether you like BWPS or not, I think it has to be considered now if non-vintage, non BW mixes are being created for a Sessions release.

Personally, if it were possible, I'd love to hear the sessions mixed into a replica of the BWPS album, done as seamlessly as Linnett's GV Box mixes, but sadly (I think, I may be wrong), going on the boots I've heard, this just isn't possible. Maybe a mixture of BWPS style mixes and GV Box style ones would be best. A seamless BWPS style mix of H&V would be possible I think and would supercede Heroes Sections as a way of placing sections such as Gee and Prelude to Fade in a playable sequence, after all the BWPS H&V is a legitimate BW/VDP composition so why not do it this way!

[LostArt]

Nah, silly idea.  BWPS has nada to do with the '66-'67 sessions.  There obviously is no way to construct an album that wasn't finished.  If there is ever to be a SMiLE box of some sort, I'd say forget the 'whole album' thing.  The only way that a box set would sell big numbers is if the compilers were able to get stuff that we haven't heard before.  Bruce's Heroes and Villains acetate, Al's Do You Dig Worms acetate, and whatever Durrie Parks or anyone else has.  We've all heard the boots, and if there was a way to get some of that stuff sounding clearer (like Child or Old Master Painter), that would be very cool, too.

[Bean Bag]

I did some listening to BWPS this past weekend...and damn if they didn't do a great job on that.  Clearly, these are amazing compositions, so if performed faithfully to their creation -- which they were -- then it's going to be fantastic.

One thing that made a nice difference, was it was on in the background.  And man, I couldn't tell it wasn't original!!!  The illusion was complete.  I tend to be overly critical if listening via headphones....

Anyway.....back to the topic:

I don't think adding the "boys" to BWPS would be as interesting, as adding them directly to the original -- where needed....AND I think that something like this would be a fantastic idea.  It would never happen...I hear Mike wasn't to fond of SMiLE ( )

Either way -- a SMiLE box set has to happen!!

Instead, we get overpriced recycled hits/single compilations EVERY  F i C K I N G  summer!!!!

[mjd180]

Either way -- a SMiLE box set has to happen!!

Instead, we get overpriced recycled hits/single compilations EVERY  F i C K I N G  summer!!!!

I'm pretty sure this is simply a matter of WHEN, not IF. When Brian passes? When Mike passes? Or both...

[Bill Tobelman]

Should be presented as just sessions in chronological order; document the history. Take any outside input out of the equation.

Let those sessions be presented without compromise or explanation.

[Jason]

I'm pretty sure this is simply a matter of WHEN, not IF. When Brian passes? When Mike passes? Or both...

Ball's been in Brian's court since the mid-90s.

When the touring ends and Brian (Melinda) needs money, that'll be the first to come out. And maybe we'll get the Pearl Jam-esque treatment of Brian's live recordings.

[SG7]

Either way -- a SMiLE box set has to happen!!

Instead, we get overpriced recycled hits/single compilations EVERY  F i C K I N G  summer!!!!

I'm pretty sure this is simply a matter of WHEN, not IF. When Brian passes? When Mike passes? Or both...

Both. And their lawyers too 

[Aegir]

100 years from now, there will be a team of lawyers in the Brother Records boardroom still fighting the same fights for their departed employers. The lawyer for Mike's estate will still be suing everyone.