BW's contributions to music

[NightHider]

So what exactly were they, specifically?  I am not music educated, but I am familiar when I hear a complex arrangement .  Wilson was ahead of the mall and probably still is. 

Okay, "Chuck Berry and harmony"  we know.  using the studio as an instrument we know.  But was BW the first to double track?   Would you credit him with the ' way-progressive' pop direction music took?  What is it that he specifically is credited with contributing to music with besides great tunes?

I hear his influence in bands ranging from The Cars(Magic) to Van Halen background vocals opn anything (undoubtedly inspired by Wilson).  Tilt of the hat to Carl on DLR's California Girls!!



 

[Jason]

But was BW the first to double track?   

No.

Would you credit him with the ' way-progressive' pop direction music took?

No.

What is it that he specifically is credited with contributing to music with besides great tunes?

The idea of the aging, washed-up rock star.

[NightHider]

Jason - Damn, dude....

[brianc]

Brian created the music of a time and place, as much as Hoagy Carmichael, Cole Porter, Duke Ellington or George Gershwin.

[Amy B.]

He combined other people's ideas and made something new out of them by constantly pushing the envelope.

Musically, he was so talented and creative that he created a standard by which derivative bands are judged (and by which he too is now judged), and he set the bar high. He also put a lot of himself into his music, and since his personality is so singular, that intangible element is hard to duplicate.

[oldsurferdude]

But was BW the first to double track?   

No.

Would you credit him with the ' way-progressive' pop direction music took?

No.

What is it that he specifically is credited with contributing to music with besides great tunes?

The idea of the aging, washed-up rock star.

...sounds like Mr. Positivity to a tee.

[Jason]

Heh, I was just kidding with that remark.

Seriously, I think Brian contributed a feeling to music that really has not been seen since his glory days. Those classic tunes are not just music, they're a way of life for many of us. He created the California Dream. Who else can lay claim to something like that? No-one.

[the captain]

I think it's important to keep Brian's contributions in perspective. He didn't invent anything that comes to my mind, anyway. He wrote really great pop songs, often that were more sophisticated in their arrangements than a lot of other pop songs. But you hear things like how his chordal arrangements were "advanced" and how he used non-root notes in the bass parts ... none of that is remotely innovative. There isn't anything particularly difficult about making extended chords, or singing them, once you're used to it. And inversions in the bass are as old as western harmony (i.e., 500+ years). Brian Wilson wrote really great pop songs. But he didn't change the way music works or anything. That's just hype.

[Shady]

I think it's important to keep Brian's contributions in perspective. He didn't invent anything that comes to my mind, anyway. He wrote really good pop songs, often that were more sophisticated in their arrangements than a lot of other pop songs. But you hear things like how his chordal arrangements were "advanced" and how he used non-root notes in the bass parts ... none of that is remotely innovative. There isn't anything particularly difficult about making extended chords, or singing them, once you're used to it. And inversions in the bass are as old as western harmony (i.e., 500+ years). Brian Wilson wrote really great pop songs. But he didn't change the way music works or anything. That's just hype.

'Really great Pop Songs'

Everyone has opinions, but that is quite simply a understatement.

If anything he created a new breed of pop songs.

[brianc]

I agree. I think that undervalues how unique his sound is. In the film "Helvetica," there is a female talking head, and she talks about a group of people in her design firm who made a bet that they could duplicate the opening lines of "I Get Around." They were all really great singers, and did that kind of thing on the side. They got it note for note perfect, and yet, somehow, it didn't deliver for those in the office. She meant no offense to those guys... only tried to insinuate that the Beach Boys had a sound that was unique to the Beach Boys. No matter how many bands are derivative of that sound... and no matter what musical trends Brian's songs reference... his never sounds derivative in and of itself.

I thought what Amy B. wrote was incredible. The thing about Brian's singular personality... it makes that music comes alive... pop, rock, hokey, slice-of-life, high-art, whatever. It is all so uniquely Brian, you don't know where the person ends and the entertainer begins.

[oldsurferdude]

I think it's important to keep Brian's contributions in perspective. He didn't invent anything that comes to my mind, anyway. He wrote really good pop songs, often that were more sophisticated in their arrangements than a lot of other pop songs. But you hear things like how his chordal arrangements were "advanced" and how he used non-root notes in the bass parts ... none of that is remotely innovative. There isn't anything particularly difficult about making extended chords, or singing them, once you're used to it. And inversions in the bass are as old as western harmony (i.e., 500+ years). Brian Wilson wrote really great pop songs. But he didn't change the way music works or anything. That's just hype.

Um, I think we have to look at GV and its unique structure before we slap on a lable that merely says "really great pop songs". While no one has " changed the way music works" (and just what exactly is that?) , GV did most certainly change the way pop songs were put together and ultimately had everyone listening in a somewhat different manner.

[the captain]

'Really great Pop Songs'

Everyone has opinions, but that is quite simply a understatement.

Or maybe you devalue "really great," because it's no small compliment. I knew my answer wasn't going to be popular (wrong board for that), but I stand behind it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I am not sure, NightHider, if you are differentiating between contributions and influences. I'm going to stick to Brian's contributions:

1. Like Luther said, contributing great popular music/rock and roll songs from the mid-1960's, rivaling the British Invasion, and centering around the California values of cars, girls, and surfing.

2. Contributing one of the greatest albums of the rock era, Pet Sounds, which was one of the first concept albums (musically), but will be more recognized for the consistent, outstanding quality of all of the songs on the album.

3. A minor footnote will be the Smile Era. Even though the music was not heard by the masses, it WAS legendary for many years in the music field, and influenced enough artists/musicians who tried to emulate some of the music in the ensuing years.

Unfortunately, after 1967, Brian contributed very little to the music world, that would be considered outstanding or "great",  that is worth mentioning outside of a Brian Wilson diehard's world.

[Shady]

'Really great Pop Songs'

Everyone has opinions, but that is quite simply a understatement.

Or maybe you devalue "really great," because it's no small compliment. I knew my answer wasn't going to be popular (wrong board for that), but I stand behind it.

You should, it is your view after all.

But to me, Brian made much more than just 'really great pop songs'

He changed the whole spectrum, and how it's approached.

[MBE]

I am not sure, NightHider, if you are differentiating between contributions and influences. I'm going to stick to Brian's contributions:

1. Like Luther said, contributing great popular music/rock and roll songs from the mid-1960's, rivaling the British Invasion, and centering around the California values of cars, girls, and surfing.

2. Contributing one of the greatest albums of the rock era, Pet Sounds, which was one of the first concept albums (musically), but will be more recognized for the consistent, outstanding quality of all of the songs on the album.

3. A minor footnote will be the Smile Era. Even though the music was not heard by the masses, it WAS legendary for many years in the music field, and influenced enough artists/musicians who tried to emulate some of the music in the ensuing years.

Unfortunately, after 1967, Brian contributed very little to the music world, that would be considered outstanding or "great",  that is worth mentioning outside of a Brian Wilson diehard's world.

Well I agree with you almost 100 percent. One thing I would change though is to say that Brian post Smile did influence a lot of people. Wild Honey was one of the first of the rock and roll back to the roots albums. Friends had him incorporate jazz, Sunflower was sonically one of the best albums ever released, and though I don't care for it myself, Love You had the synth and DIY mentality that some have cited to be very ear opening. Perhaps these recordings have not reached a mass audience, but as far as influencing the music world, I think they have.

Usually the first to try a musical technique isn't necessarily the one to perfect it and make it palatable. So I would credit Brian with being innovative with many things. Intictate layered harmnony, modular production and a willingness to try non traditional instrumentation, clarity of sound pictures, and perhaps most importantly being one of the first rock artists to express themselves so personally. Unlike Lennon circa 1970 he didn't do it subjectively, he made you feel like someone understood exactly what you were going through.

[the captain]

Well I agree with you almost 100 percent. One thing I would change though is to say that Brian post Smile did influence a lot of people. Wild Honey was one of the first of the rock and roll back to the roots albums. Friends had him incorporate jazz, Sunflower was sonically one of the best albums ever released, and though I don't care for it myself, Love You had the synth and DIY mentality that some have cited to be very ear opening. Perhaps these recordings have not reached a mass audience, but as far as influencing the music world, I think they have.

This is purely me being argumentative, but: 1) Just because Wild Honey was among the first back-to-roots albums doesn't mean it influenced others to follow. I've never heard of anyone saying it inspired them to drop the B.S. and return to playing rock. 2) A bossa nova beat on one track is hardly incorporating jazz. 3) Sunflower was sonically great, but how did it influence anyone? It was a flop. 4) Love You had synth ... but again, did it have fans? NOW these things have people going back and examining them, but it's hard to say that they had much influence at the time.

[Shady]

I'm not saying people need to bend down and kiss Brian's feet for his music, but I don't understand why people on a BB message board would argue against something like Brian's impact on music.

Just saying!

[the captain]

I'm not saying people need to bend down and kiss Brian's feet for his music, but I don't understand why people on a BB message board would argue against something like Brian's impact on music.

Just saying!

I don't think anyone is.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Nobody's arguing, nobody's being negative. This is just good conversation. Trying to analyze. Offering opinions.

MBE, I put in that "disclaimer" about Brian's contributions outside of a BW/BB diehard's world to basically address albums like Friends and Sunflower. And The Beach Boys Love You to some extent. I love those albums, but, again, I'm part of that 1% who even knows/cares/appreciates those records. Unfortunately. But Brian will not be remembered for contributing those albums.

Again, I don't want to address "influences", that's a different animal, although I don't think Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, and Love You influenced many. Some, but not many.

[Bicyclerider]

1. Brian's sense of harmony and use of complex vocal arrangements in rock songs was innovative and unparalleled, even today.  Yeah, he originally got it from the lightweight pop/jazz of the Four Freshmen, but applied it to a new musical direction and IMO far surpassed what the Four Freshmen were doing.

2. Brian's chord changes were different and at times startling in a rock/pop song, but yet always seem to fit the song perfectly.

3. Brian bettered Phil Spector at creating an orchestral wall of sound with Pet Sounds, complex arrangements that were small symphonies with innovative use of different instruments that had not been used in rock (bass harmonica - with a solo no less, theremin or ribbon controller or whatever that was, three basses playing at once, layered multiple percussion instruments).  His use of orchestrated instrumentals was innovative - can't think of many rock groups doing that in 65-66.  A rock four piece instrumental, yes, but not like what Brian was doing.

4. Brian developed new ways of writing songs like a symphony with multiple movements with different tempos and vastly different arrangements - Good Vibrations - and tried to extend this method to Smile (and then Smiley Smile)but of course we all know what happened to that.  With Smile he continued to experiment with song structure, at times completely abandoning the verse/chorus/bridge structure.  This was getting into avant garde territory and Brian was the innovator - the Beatles to a much lesser extent (their songs were still fairly conventional in structure, with a few exceptions like Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day in the Life).

5.  After Smile Brian continued to innovate with songs incorporating bossa nova beats, waltz time songs, songs that reflected the simple joys of daily life (Busy Doin' Nothin, I Went to Sleep, I'd Love Just Once to See You, Mama Says, Friends) rather than being about drugs/mind expansion/revolution/romantic love - many years before Lennon did the same with his final album.

6. His enthusiastic adoption of synthesizer and especially syn bass was innovative in the Love You era.

After that, you get some occasional great songs, but most of the musical innovation was done.  Something doesn't have to be influential (i.e. copied by someone) to be innovative, of course.  The question of influence is a whole nother thread.

[Aegir]

Brian's music influences the Beatles, who in turn influenced every other band on the planet.

[the captain]

Brian's music influences the Beatles, who in turn influenced every other band on the planet.

But--and again, this is just argument--that's bad logic. I mean, Miles Davis also praised Ahmad Jamal as an influence. Miles influenced the world. Are we to say Ahmad Jamal influenced the world? (I do think Brian had a big influence on pop musicians. I'm not arguing that, just the logic.)

[MBE]

Well I agree with you almost 100 percent. One thing I would change though is to say that Brian post Smile did influence a lot of people. Wild Honey was one of the first of the rock and roll back to the roots albums. Friends had him incorporate jazz, Sunflower was sonically one of the best albums ever released, and though I don't care for it myself, Love You had the synth and DIY mentality that some have cited to be very ear opening. Perhaps these recordings have not reached a mass audience, but as far as influencing the music world, I think they have.

This is purely me being argumentative, but: 1) Just because Wild Honey was among the first back-to-roots albums doesn't mean it influenced others to follow. I've never heard of anyone saying it inspired them to drop the B.S. and return to playing rock. 2) A bossa nova beat on one track is hardly incorporating jazz. 3) Sunflower was sonically great, but how did it influence anyone? It was a flop. 4) Love You had synth ... but again, did it have fans? NOW these things have people going back and examining them, but it's hard to say that they had much influence at the time.

I do stand by my words (and also think that there is a jazzy undertone to Friends as a whole) but for the sake of argument let's assume you are right and I am wrong. The fact that these records have held up, and now more well renowned then many popular items of the day says something. The continuing influence is not to be overlooked.  

[MBE]

Nobody's arguing, nobody's being negative. This is just good conversation. Trying to analyze. Offering opinions.

MBE, I put in that "disclaimer" about Brian's contributions outside of a BW/BB diehard's world to basically address albums like Friends and Sunflower. And The Beach Boys Love You to some extent. I love those albums, but, again, I'm part of that 1% who even knows/cares/appreciates those records. Unfortunately. But Brian will not be remembered for contributing those albums.

Again, I don't want to address "influences", that's a different animal, although I don't think Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, and Love You influenced many. Some, but not many.

The only thing we differ on is that I feel those records made a greater impact then you do. No they aren't everyday items but many historians of sixties music (most notably the young musicians who keep drawing from them) are outside of the tight fan base. People astute enough to dig Smile usually will know of the albums that contained bits of it. One last thing we cannot forget that in parts of the world songs like Heroes, Do It Again, Darlin, and Break Away were huge hits. LP's like Surf's Up and Wild Honey sold decently here and overseas pretty strongly. The Warmth Of The Sun comp, and The Beach Boys In Concert live album also exposed these songs to many. Endless Harmony and AAB also exposed many to the fact that Brian's talent didn't just end with Smile.

[lance]

Nothing like Good Vibrations had been done before in th 500+ years of music.

 As much as it might pain some to admit, Brian(along with a few others) truly DID innovate by fully realizing the potential of the recording-studio-as-instrument. Some pioneering attempts had begun before that, but he and a few others(Phil Spector, the Beatles) truly did innovate in that respect.

As far as innovations to ROCK/POPULAR music, he obviously innovated a lot--in the broader context of all music, however, I suppose his contributions were minimal.

Now, in the grand history of 500 years+of Western music: what contributions to MUSIC did Mozart make? Or Beethoven? How were things changed?

I suppose contributing to music and influencing what comes after are, in fact, and despite what other people here seem to think, very similar things.