1981 up at Bellagio...

[Ian]

I am, obviously, a big BB fan.  But I think you have to point out that some of the friction was caused by the fact that there was a lot of frustration within the group about the increasing oldies only nature of the shows....Carl eventually surrendered to the inevitable...but I think he was fighting that in the late 70's-early 80s.  Mike seems to have found peace with the group becoming an oldies act much sooner than Carl.  I think as a musician it is hard to play the same stuff over and over again and make it fresh....Also it seems that once Carl straightened out his life, he kept his distance from his brothers. Since he was not close to Mike at that period of time-this left him kind of isolated...The fact that all the BBs were kind of in their own separate heads and didn't really connect except onstage anymore-can't have helped...In a way 1981 was the end of the original BBs-when Carl returned in May 1982 it was oldies all the way from then on...

[MBE]

^ That's a really good post. I'd add that, while you said "[Carl] should not have tolerated sub par performances," neither should have anyone else who had an ear to hear them. Mike also--for all his many faults--was working his ass off to do a good show in the way that he knew how (for better or for worse). I think that by the "Brian is Back" campaign, there was just layer upon layer of strangeness that complicated the picture. It is, of course, a big part of why so many people find the story interesting. But from an actual, personal perspective, it is sad ... even pathetic. I find some of those clips from shows in the late 70s hard to watch, with Brian obviously sick. And yet, Dennis's obvious affection for his brother is beautiful to me. And even (the "villain") Mike has moments on film from those shows when I can't help but think all he is interested in is seeing whether Brian is OK. What a weird time it must have been to be among them: jealously, greed, love, hatred, anger, frustration, hope, optimism, pessimism ... not pretty.

I agree with what you have to say completely. Ian I also agree about 1980 being the end in some ways. Just looking at the 1981 recording sessions or lack thereof show a band who gave up. I may place the true end of them as a real group back to the 1977 breakup. They never all came together after that.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian probably was experiencing some boredom, but why didn't he do something about it? Like singing! I saw a number of concerts during that period 1978-1982, and Brian barely opened his mouth. He sang one or two leads, and contributed hardly any background vocals.  Even on some versions of "Sloop John B", Brian sang the opening part, but Carl picked up the "Poor cook he caught the fits" part. Either Brian was too bored to sing, or he couldn't keep up with the pace. Brian used to sit at Bruce's electric piano to play "Help Me Rhonda", showing no emotion, sitting there like Sparks' Ron Mael. Then, he would scurry back behind his piano. Brian also didn't utter a syllable; a simple "thank you" would've gone a long way. And, Brian was usually the first one off the stage, sometimes while "Fun Fun Fun" was still playing. If he was bored by being relegated to the piano, he certainly could've found other ways to contribute.

In my opinion, Carl probably HAD to take Brian off of the bass. First, I doubt that Brian strongly objected to it; I don't think he cared too much about anything at that time. And second, there is no way Brian would've been able (stamina and concentration-wise) to play the bass on twenty-something songs every show. Especially with Dennis being as eratic as he was on the drums. And thirdly, Carl, as much as anybody, wanted Brian to succeed. It must've killed him, but he had to do it for the betterment of the sound.

I think most of Brian's behavior in that 1981-82 period can be attributed to drugs. After being institutionalized in 1978 (date?), Brian appeared to be, and I hate to use this phrase, coming back. His TV appearances in 1980 showed a fairly relaxed, lucid, and humorous Brian. But, unfortunately, by 1981, he was sliding back. I will say that I don't think his 1981 vocals were as bad as some are making them out to be. His voice was not raspy, and he appeared at least to be trying to "sing", holding his notes longer....

[the captain]

I don't disagree with you. As I said, while I can in a way understand what might have helped lead to Brian's continued downfall, I can also absolutely understand the other band members trying to minimize his potential for damage to nightly shows. Also, ditto on the 1981 shows. Yeah, there are awful moments. But the '81 Long Beach "God Only Knows" shows him singing pretty well, a note or two notwithstanding. That's better than plenty of shows before and after.

[Jay]

I must say that I find this one of the more interesting threads on this message board. Ok, I have a question about Brian from this period. Who's descision was it for Brian to sing during this period? I know that he would probably have been the obvious choice for God Only Knows or Don't Worry Baby. His voice is probably the closest to Carl's. But the group HAD to have known deep down that Brian just couldn't handle it like he used to. Why did they continue to let him sing? I wonder what Brian thought about it? Was he the one who wanted to sing? Why would he still try something like Don't Worry Baby? There is a moment during that song from the Long Beach footage, where the camera is on Bruce, and he's OBVOUSLY upset about what he's seeing and hearing. Why didn't he or Al try to "rescue" Brian by taking over the lead?

[variable2]

a great artifact from the time discussed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBo5bMAu_gc

[shelter]

My favourite moment on the Knebworth show is when Al leans over to Brian and you see him mouth something like, "How're you doing? Are you okay?".

I know this has been discussed here before, but does anyone have any idea what exactly happened at the end of "Surfer Girl"? You can see Carl, looking irritated, trying to walk up to Mike... Dennis sees this and holds him back... And then you can see Al shaking Dennis's hand like he's saying "Good job".

[carl r]

Carl always had an idea of what sounded good, perhaps as instinctive on stage as Brian was in the studio.

My impression is that with Carl in the band there was always a musical base to the group.

Damn shame that he's missed the general resurgence in the BB back catalogue of the last 10 years.

Who knows if he could have been a part of this? I'm not saying he should have left the touring band, but he would have had far more creative opportunities as a solo performer or with Brian/Al.

My feeling is that there would have been a movement to "rescue" him at some point, whether or not he realised that he needed rescuing from the guaranteed payouts at county shows and the like.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm not saying he (Carl) should have left the touring band, but he would have had far more creative opportunities as a solo performer or with Brian/Al.

Remember, Carl had his chance for "more creative opportunities as a solo performer" in the early 1980's. I believe his words were, and I'm paraphrasing "I want to step away from the restrictions of The Beach Boys and do some things with a harder edge, a rockier edge." Or something to that effect. He did "Carl Wilson" and "Youngblood".

If Carl would've lived, he would've had the opportunity to continue his solo endeavors on the side. Hell, everybody else did! Even though they had/have problems getting them released. I don't think Carl would've left The Beach Boys to join Brian because of $$$$$$. That was always the driving factor that kept the individual beached boys coming back to The Beach Boys. Actually, if Carl had lived, it wouldn't surprised me if Brian went back to the Beach Boys....

[jmc]

 I don't think Carl would've left The Beach Boys to join Brian because of $$$$$$. That was always the driving factor that kept the individual beached boys coming back to The Beach Boys. Actually, if Carl had lived, it wouldn't surprised me if Brian went back to the Beach Boys....

Hmmm......I have always wondered though, if Carl had lived, and Al and Mike's relationship had turned sour enough for Al to leave, and Brian did his thing as he's done, (Al teams up with Brian for shows), would there be more $$$$$ seeing Brian, Al, and Carl or Mike, Bruce and Carl?  Of course that would really hinge on whether or not Al left, which is unlikely.  He probably would have put up with Mike as long as Carl was in the band.  But if he didn't, I think things would have gotten interesting.  If Carl did join Al and Brian, who would have the better right to the name "The Beach Boys"?  Three original members (including two Wilson's) or one original member and a 60's add on?  Perhaps a judge would have given the name and rights to Brian, Carl, and Al??

All BIG 'what ifs', but interesting to ponder.

[Aegir]

That would be really annoying if there was one group of Brian, Carl & Al and another of Mike & Bruce. The former would probably get the name, but I don't think it'd ever be split up that way. Mike, Bruce, Carl and Al would all be in the same band... I don't know what would've happened with Dave's resurgence if both Carl and Al were still in the band, though.

I'm pretty sure Al was kicked out of the Beach Boys as opposed to leaving, though, but if Carl were still alive, Mike wouldn't've had the authority to do so.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm pretty sure Al was kicked out of the Beach Boys as opposed to fired...

There's a difference ? 

[TdHabib]

It's interesting to compare the 1977 live Brian to the 1981 live Brian:
I'm using my basis from the concert at Largo I have on DVD....
-Brian audibly plays piano on some of the songs (especially "Airplane," which he comes in early on), and his parts are definitely fitting with the key and tempo of the songs.
-He also plays a high boogie woogie phrase in between most of the songs, and it's cool; Al even remarks before "In My Room," "yeah Brian, play that boogie woogie." He also stops before most of the songs start, literally right before the intro of "California Girls," as if it was leading to it.
-Also, he sings with lots of feeling; his vocals aren't particularly good but he looks like he's enjoying himself. He gives a huge smile and stands up with his arms up after Mike introduces him. Right before the encore, he goes to center stage, gets a microphone, tells the rest of the band to hold it, and introduces Mike Love.

The 1977 Brian was a hugely inconsistant one, but a fascinating one and probably the last time he was the real Brian for a long time (at least seven years I'd estimate). He made a terrific album that was scrapped, Adult/Child, and there's stories I've heard about him being animated and sounding good in concert in '77.

The 1981 Brian was stiff and just a train-wreck on stage. Although I haven't heard the 1981 studio material and enjoy "Stevie," his songs were probably very poor as was his voice (I can't stand "Night Blooming Jasmine," the vocal at least). 1981 and 1982 were the worst years ever for Brian.

[Aegir]

I'm pretty sure Al was kicked out of the Beach Boys as opposed to fired...

There's a difference ? 

I meant kicked out as opposed to leaving.

[MBE]

It's interesting to compare the 1977 live Brian to the 1981 live Brian:
I'm using my basis from the concert at Largo I have on DVD....
-Brian audibly plays piano on some of the songs (especially "Airplane," which he comes in early on), and his parts are definitely fitting with the key and tempo of the songs.
-He also plays a high boogie woogie phrase in between most of the songs, and it's cool; Al even remarks before "In My Room," "yeah Brian, play that boogie woogie." He also stops before most of the songs start, literally right before the intro of "California Girls," as if it was leading to it.
-Also, he sings with lots of feeling; his vocals aren't particularly good but he looks like he's enjoying himself. He gives a huge smile and stands up with his arms up after Mike introduces him. Right before the encore, he goes to center stage, gets a microphone, tells the rest of the band to hold it, and introduces Mike Love.

The 1977 Brian was a hugely inconsistant one, but a fascinating one and probably the last time he was the real Brian for a long time (at least seven years I'd estimate). He made a terrific album that was scrapped, Adult/Child, and there's stories I've heard about him being animated and sounding good in concert in '77.

The 1981 Brian was stiff and just a train-wreck on stage. Although I haven't heard the 1981 studio material and enjoy "Stevie," his songs were probably very poor as was his voice (I can't stand "Night Blooming Jasmine," the vocal at least). 1981 and 1982 were the worst years ever for Brian.

Actually I think his voice on Night Blooming Jasmine was pretty good. The cocaine tape is rough but also have him singing with a lot of feeling. He's much smoother today and in many ways better, but his expressiveness was more or less lost after Landy came back. That said on stage Brian was at his worst to me in 1981-82. Especially vocally. One track that is really bad is from 1978 and called I'm Begging You Please. I never heard him ever sing that bad.

[Jay]

You know, I really wish that Brian would play "Oh Lord" at his current shows. I know that he can't hit any real high notes, but I bet his "mature" voice of today would go really well with the song.

[TdHabib]

It's interesting to compare the 1977 live Brian to the 1981 live Brian:
I'm using my basis from the concert at Largo I have on DVD....
-Brian audibly plays piano on some of the songs (especially "Airplane," which he comes in early on), and his parts are definitely fitting with the key and tempo of the songs.
-He also plays a high boogie woogie phrase in between most of the songs, and it's cool; Al even remarks before "In My Room," "yeah Brian, play that boogie woogie." He also stops before most of the songs start, literally right before the intro of "California Girls," as if it was leading to it.
-Also, he sings with lots of feeling; his vocals aren't particularly good but he looks like he's enjoying himself. He gives a huge smile and stands up with his arms up after Mike introduces him. Right before the encore, he goes to center stage, gets a microphone, tells the rest of the band to hold it, and introduces Mike Love.

The 1977 Brian was a hugely inconsistant one, but a fascinating one and probably the last time he was the real Brian for a long time (at least seven years I'd estimate). He made a terrific album that was scrapped, Adult/Child, and there's stories I've heard about him being animated and sounding good in concert in '77.

The 1981 Brian was stiff and just a train-wreck on stage. Although I haven't heard the 1981 studio material and enjoy "Stevie," his songs were probably very poor as was his voice (I can't stand "Night Blooming Jasmine," the vocal at least). 1981 and 1982 were the worst years ever for Brian.

Actually I think his voice on Night Blooming Jasmine was pretty good. The cocaine tape is rough but also have him singing with a lot of feeling. He's much smoother today and in many ways better, but his expressiveness was more or less lost after Landy came back. That said on stage Brian was at his worst to me in 1981-82. Especially vocally. One track that is really bad is from 1978 and called I'm Begging You Please. I never heard him ever sing that bad.

Our roads split about "Jasmine" and the Landy era, but I'm right with you on "I'm Begging You Please," a decent song ruined by the vocal.

[Jay]

I thought that I'm Begging You Please was much earlier than 1978? For some reason, I seem to remember somebody saying that the date for it was 1975.

[Andrew G. Doe]

So did I... until someone who knows much better than I told me different. Originally it was part of the Love You demos tape that did the collectors rounds in the early 80s, so i guess people assumed.

[Jay]

Originally it was part of the Love You demos tape that did the collectors rounds in the early 80s, so i guess people assumed.

That's actually the first time I heard it. It was the last song on a bootleg of a bunch of Love You demos.

[Jay]

Going back a little bit to my question about Brian's voice...who had him sing Don't Worry Baby, and a few other songs? Did the group have him do it? Or did Brian himself want to sing? I'm just wondering why nobody tried to stop him at some point during the 1981 tour. Al never had a GREAT falsetto, but he could pull off Don't Worry Baby if he tried hard enough. He did it in 1971-74(?), so why didn't he take over the lead during the 1981-82 tour?

[Jay]

I have another question for Andrew, or Ian. During the research for the 1981 entry on Andrew's site, was there any information unearthed about the infamous "cocaine tapes"? Were any studio sheets(I forget what they're called) found?