New US singles box-set

[Andreas]

I thought the Fun, Fun, Fun single had a longer fadeout.

Yes the album version fades out incredibly early compared to the single one.

No, the difference is merely one second. The mono LP mix is 2:16 long, the single mix 2:17.

You are probably confusing this with the stereo LP mix which fades out several seconds earlier.

[audiodrome]

Consider this - why would Brian decided to (almost imperceptably) remix one track on an LP when he could just strip the single master into the tape ?  "CG" was recorded during the album sessions, released a week after the LP. I know this is The Beach Boys we're talking about here, but even so, makes no sense.

I suppose that it's possible that Brian (or someone else) took the single mix and copied it to another reel while shortening the fade. To me, it seems likely that there is a "single" version and an "LP" version in the vaults. The Japanese singles box set and Greatest Hits Vol. 1 both have the 2:47 version, which is the version that was originally released on 45. The version on the US Singles Collection is identical to the version on Summer Days (and Summer Nights), so regardless of whether the mix is different or not ( I think it is), technically there is a single version and an LP version.

[Dr. Tim]

Well from what Alan Boyd reports and the discussion here it sounds like the most likely scenario was CG was mastered and faded for 45 at the longer length, but when the copy of the original mix tape was made and the song inserted into the LP master reel,  it was re-EQ'd and faded somewhat more quickly.  That stuff happens.  I guess the EQs and fades to the tracks on the LP tape reels were set and then applied on the fly while the mother disc for each side was being cut?  Is that your understanding Josh and Alan?

Another good example of this (besides the bazillion Beatles record anomalies chronicled elsewhere in the world and the stereo vs. mono arguments on everything 60s-related)  is the recent reissue of Cream's "Disraeli Gears" with mono and stereo mixes.  For some reason the mono mixes are a couple of seconds longer.

[Andreas]

Well from what Alan Boyd reports and the discussion here it sounds like the most likely scenario was CG was mastered and faded for 45 at the longer length, but when the copy of the original mix tape was made and the song inserted into the LP master reel,  it was re-EQ'd and faded somewhat more quickly. 

Can you please give a link to where Alan Boyd discusses this?

[Rocker]

Hope you don't mind if I change the topic just for a moment, but does anyone else like to hear the whole '65 Chicago (iirc) concert from which "409" and "Shut down" are now available? A complete '65-concert with Brian... would be a great release and probably even sell some units

[Dr. Tim]

Andreas:  Alan Boyd's report is reply # 29 in this thread, here is the quote:

"The singles masters held by EMI are generally stored on compiled reels called "phono reels."  In many cases, when a single was later included on an album, that master would have been pulled from the phono reel to the master album reel, and replaced by a "dub" copy (and this is usually indicated on the documentation found with the phono reel).   The original mix tapes are flat, unmastered, and often will have a long fade.  The phono reel logs generally have fairly precise mastering and EQ notes indicating how the sound, the speed, the fade, etc was to be adjusted during mastering.  The album reels will also have their own mastering notes and instructions, but they're often quite different because they were handled by different technicians."

[mjd180]

Hope you don't mind if I change the topic just for a moment, but does anyone else like to hear the whole '65 Chicago (iirc) concert from which "409" and "Shut down" are now available? A complete '65-concert with Brian... would be a great release and probably even sell some units

Dude. Just make your own thread. This has nothing to do with what we're discussing...

[Aegir]

Shows how much you know. 409 live in Chicago is on the first disc in this collection.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Shows how much you know. Shut Down live in Chicago is on the first disc in this collection.

Shows how much you know - there's no live version of "Shut Down" on the whole set, nor was it ever the B side of "Surfin' Safari".

Try "409".

[Aegir]

You know, I should've double-checked. I kept on going back and forth between 409 and Shut Down, trying to remember which one was in the set... it makes so much sense now... 

[Alex]

Plus they used the LP mix of California Girls! That kind of ruins the whole idea of a SINGLES box set, doncha think? That being said, I like the box set. I think the little picture sleeves with the mini 45s look really nice! Also, buying this set relieves some of the guilt I feel for selling all of my Beach Boys picture sleeves a few years back. 

No matter what mix is used it is still the SAME SONG! So why not use the best sounding mix available, be it the stereo mix from Sounds of Summer or another mix, instead of a muddy, crappy-sounding mono mix from the 60s?

[Alan Boyd]

I got a hold of the 1999 "Greatest Hits Vol 1" CD the other day.

"California Girls" on that compilation clocks in at 2:38, one second more than the track on the singles set.  It's the same mix, mastered a little differently.  The fade is almost identical.

[audiodrome]

No matter what mix is used it is still the SAME SONG! So why not use the best sounding mix available, be it the stereo mix from Sounds of Summer or another mix, instead of a muddy, crappy-sounding mono mix from the 60s?

But the whole idea of the US Singles Collection was to give us the US single versions, not the best sounding mixes available!

[HeyJude]

Plus they used the LP mix of California Girls! That kind of ruins the whole idea of a SINGLES box set, doncha think? That being said, I like the box set. I think the little picture sleeves with the mini 45s look really nice! Also, buying this set relieves some of the guilt I feel for selling all of my Beach Boys picture sleeves a few years back. 

No matter what mix is used it is still the SAME SONG! So why not use the best sounding mix available, be it the stereo mix from Sounds of Summer or another mix, instead of a muddy, crappy-sounding mono mix from the 60s?

Aside from the packaging angle, the whole point of a "US Singles Collection" (as opposed to just a general compilation like "Sounds of Summer") is to present the original single mixes, regardless of whether some feel they are "crappy sounding" or "muddy" or whatever. The point is not to just use the "best sounding mix available" (even assuming we could all agree which mix is the "best sounding", which of course we surely all cannot).

In any event, this new set features both mono and stereo mixes where applicable and possible. So if one is inclined to prefer the vintage stereo mixes or latter-day stereo remixes, those are there on the set as well.

[HeyJude]

I got a hold of the 1999 "Greatest Hits Vol 1" CD the other day.

"California Girls" on that compilation clocks in at 2:38, one second more than the track on the singles set.  It's the same mix, mastered a little differently.  The fade is almost identical.

Do we have a definitive timing on the version included on the old Japanese singles collection, as well as a timing on the original mono vinyl 45? Comparing the version on the Japanese singles collection with the version on the new US Singles Collection, I would say that, conservatively, the version on the Japanese singles collections runs 6 or 7 seconds longer. I've read comments from folks who say that the Japanese singles collection matches what is heard on the original US vinyl 45, but I don't have one at my disposal right now to compare.

For whatever reason, somebody on another board says their copy of the 1999 Greatest Hits Vol. 1 has the longer fade, with "California Girls" running 2:45. Is it possible some 1995 masterings of GH1 were used in 1999 pressings or packagings or something? I don't have all of the different copies at my disposal (and certainly not alternate pressings if they exist!) to compare right now.

[Beach Head]

I got a hold of the 1999 "Greatest Hits Vol 1" CD the other day.

"California Girls" on that compilation clocks in at 2:38, one second more than the track on the singles set.  It's the same mix, mastered a little differently.  The fade is almost identical.

Hmmm...

My copy of the 1999 Greatest Hits Vol. 1 CD has "California Girls" clocking in at 2:45, with the music actually fading completely out at 2:43.

My copy of the 1995 20 Good Vibrations: The Greatest Hits CD has "California Girls" clocking in at 2:38, with the music fading out at 2:35.

Alan, is it possible that you got hold of the wrong issue of the set?  The easiest way to tell the difference is by the last four songs.  The 1999 CD ends with: Wouldn't It Be Nice/God Only Knows/Good Vibrations/Kokomo.  The 1995 CD ends with: 409/God Only Knows/Catch a Wave/Kokomo.

[Beach Head]

Do we have a definitive timing on the version included on the old Japanese singles collection, as well as a timing on the original mono vinyl 45?

"California Girls" on the 3-CD Japanese Single Collection clocks in at 2:48, with the music fading out at 2:44 -- identical (for all practical purposes) to the version on the 1999 Greatest Hits Vol. 1 CD.

Unfortunately, the audio system to which my turntable is attached is out of commission at the moment (a blown amplifier), so I can't give you a timing on the original 45.

[Alan Boyd]

I must have gotten the earlier one, then...

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

If nothing else, this should illuminate the difficulty of figuring out what the "correct" version of a recording is for people that put out archival recordings.

[HeyJude]

If nothing else, this should illuminate the difficulty of figuring out what the "correct" version of a recording is for people that put out archival recordings.

I know what you mean, but on the other hand it could be simple in this case. I mean, if they got the longer version on "Greatest Hits Vol. 1" in 1999, then it presumably is not some sort of obscure tape hiding away somewhere. I suppose the easiest way to at least get some information would be to just find an original stock mono 45 single. Even if the debatable mix difference is set aside, one could at least check the length on it (the length it actually plays at as opposed to what is listed on the label, since those two things could at least conceivably be different).

For what it's worth, while I don't have an original 45 single at my disposal (I think I might have it packed away somewhere among a bunch of thrashed old Capitol swirl 45's I inherited at some point), I checked around on Ebay and the like and found what appears to be an original 45, and the picture of it shows the same running time as what is reproduced on the "US Singles Collection" CD label, 2:37. But I suppose an original 45 would have to be played to check what it actually runs to and at what point it fades out, and what the possible mix difference might be.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'll dig out my 45 and time it at some point.

[Andreas]

The length on the actual single could be shorter than the length on the single master.

One case that always surprises me is the song Good Vibrations which lasts a couple of seconds longer on the DCC Endless Summer CD than anywhere else (3:42 instead of 3:35). According to Steve Hoffman, he used the single master. What version is used on the US singles box-set?

[Andrew G. Doe]

The length on the actual single could be shorter than the length on the single master.

One case that always surprises me is the song Good Vibrations which lasts a couple of seconds longer on the DCC Endless Summer CD than anywhere else (3:42 instead of 3:35). According to Steve Hoffman, he used the single master. What version is used on the US singles box-set?

If the song lasts 3.42, then it's self-evidently NOT the single master as released in 1966. Brian would have mixed the multi-tracks down to a mono master, but the fade is done during the actual mastering process, as I understand. For example, the version of (I think) "Surfin' Safari" on the box set is the 45 master, but it's not faded out.

[Andreas]

If the song lasts 3.42, then it's self-evidently NOT the single master as released in 1966. Brian would have mixed the multi-tracks down to a mono master, but the fade is done during the actual mastering process, as I understand. For example, the version of (I think) "Surfin' Safari" on the box set is the 45 master, but it's not faded out.

I think there is some confusion of terminology. The single master is the product of the mono mixdown. What was released was the single, which was presumably faded during the mastering process. However, why are all other CD releases 3:35 long if they use the same master? Because the fade of the single was simulated?

[GoodVibrations33]

FWIW, I just timed the 45 single that I have of California Girls. It's the 5464 and it does list 2:37 as the running time, but it clocked in at 2:42 when I timed it. It was played on a fairly recent turntable so the speed at which it was played isn't a problem.

Hope this helps.