Brian and psychedelic rock

[carl r]

I'm interested what people think about how things evolved in the late 60s and 70s.

I see the original "smile" as a psychedelic rock album with perhaps baroque and early prog-rock elements.

We know that Brian didn't overtly pursue this further, despite hints on later work. Other people did, though, and took things in various directions.

Was this because of Brian's disposition? By his nature, would he have been able to create heavier rock along the lines of Hawkwind, Gong, or King Crimson ?

Songs like "Mess Of Help" and even "Sweet Mountain" perhaps show where he was heading in this regard.

On the other hand, were the band itself and the people surrounding them the main obstacle to Brian becoming a real 70s rocker?

[Smilin Ed H]

Baroque perhaps; heavy, no.  However, I don't BW was/is ever able to let go of that gentle, lighter, idiosyncratic touch.  It's part pf the man.

[Sheriff John Stone]

On the other hand, were the band itself and the people surrounding them the main obstacle to Brian becoming a real 70s rocker?

In what way(s)?

[carl r]

On the other hand, were the band itself and the people surrounding them the main obstacle to Brian becoming a real 70s rocker?

In what way(s)?

I don't want to be derogatory or judgemental, but much as I rate Al, Bruce and Mike's singing ability, they belong/ed more to the stripy shirt era. Which as we know was hugely successful, and loads of great music was made.

I'm just thinking of an imaginary album that could have combined tracks like "mess of help" "marcella" "fairy tale" "day in the life of a tree" "till i die" with more out-there and harder-edged instrumentation. And if this could have been Brian's "Dark Side of the Moon" !

In no way am I saying the other Beach Boys were writing bad music at this point, just that much of it had a different ethic.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yes, I also would've loved to see more Brian songs from that area. He was only contributing about two or three songs per album.

But, I'll ask again, specifically, IN WHAT WAY(S) was the group an obstacle to Brian becoming a "real 70's rocker"?

[The Shift]

Was the band an obstacle, or the fans?

After all, it was the fans who bought vast quantities of "greatest Hits"-style packages at the time and thereby dictated the direction the band would take.

If they'd ignored the repackages and bought Holland and C&TP-ST and Surf's Up by the million, then the BBs would have had a commercial incentive for following that creative, progressive path.

If you're a shop keeper and you sell ten times as many red pens as blue pens, you're gonna stock more red pens.

The other band members weren't necessarily pushing that stripey shirt tripe un til after the "best Of"s sold in huge quantities. Cal Saga, which I love, Trader, Forever, Only With You, Funky Pretty, All This Is That, Long Promised Road, River Song, Take  A Load, Feel Flows...

The band had the potential, the talent and the ability to be that progressive band without any Brian involvement, if they so chose.

But then the fans bought Endless Summer, Spirit of America and 20 Golden Greats, and the band responded to that demand.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think with "At My Window", "My Solution", "A Day In The Life Of A Tree", "Til I Die", "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone", "The Fairy Tale", "The TM Song", "Lazy Lizzie", "Shortenin' Bread", and several more - Brian DID pretty much record whatever he wanted.

Yes, the lyrics were debated/changed, but, ultimately, the songs got recorded. And many got released. Do you think the guys WANTED these types of songs? Probably not. But Brian did 'em anyway.

[pixletwin]

Brian didn't have the "hard rocker" in him. Ever. He may have gone closer to a Pink Floyd asthetic (ie rock oepras and concept albums) but I can't see him as being a psychedelic hard rocker.

Dennis on the other hand had the potential, I believe.

[Smilin Ed H]

I'm not sure if this should be seen as desirable and whether it's better or not it depends on your taste. And the old canard that prog/psych/heavy rock is somehow more adult or mature is a load of b-a-l-l-s. I'd take early 60s Beatles or Beach Boys over swirling keyboards and romantic B.S. about elves and trolls (or even elvis and trolls, although that might make it more interesting in a sorta National Enquirer groove) any day.

"I have no idea what's going on with this heavy metal stuff. I can't understand the theater of alienation. I don't think it should be done in song or reinforced musically." -Van Dyke Parks

[Aegir]

Carl certainly had the voice for hard rock.

[phirnis]

While both might last close to 30 minutes, I'd take the average sixties Beach Boys record over Rick Wakeman doing a stunning solo any day.

To my ears, 'Til I Die is not even close to seventies rock. Like so many great Brian Wilson recordings it's sophisticated in a way that seems just a lot more sympathetic and not half as braggy to me than what was fashionable at the time.

[Dr. Tim]

To the extent the BB were psychedelic it was just the way records like Smiley Smile or Friends turned out,  not a conscious choice to be heavy or atmospheric like Pink Floyd's "Ummagumma" or "Satanic Majesties".   I remember a number of reviews of Smiley Smile calling it VERY psychedelic, which was how it sounded to me - very hippy and trippy - until I learned the whole story of how it came to be.

One clue as to Brian's taste on "heavy" sounds is the liner notes to the Surf's Up CD reissue, in which he says he STILL dislikes "Student Demonstration Time" with its sirens, Moogs, bullhorn, and fuzzbox-direct guitars -- and the BB never went to that well again.

[Dancing Bear]

On the other hand, were the band itself and the people surrounding them the main obstacle to Brian becoming a real 70s rocker?

No. They were an obstacle to Brian completely retiring in the 70s.

[Mahalo]

I played the Pet Sounds instrumentals 2 days ago for someone who didn't know the name of the band, and they thought it was psychadelic...I don't hear it...made me sad to hear them say that...kind of diminishes the actual quality of the songs and recordings to label it psychadelic...IMO...

[brianc]

When I first heard "Pet Sounds," I have to admit, it sounded slightly psychedelic to me. Maybe it just felt a little closer to folk-rock, with a thick sound and lyrics that didn't sound like ANYTHING I previously associated with the Beach Boys. I'd heard the singles before, but the first time I heard "Pet Sounds" was in college, and it sounded really different and cool.

[Aegir]

When I first heard Pet Sounds, I described it as "spacey".

[pixletwin]

Weird. I always thought Pet Sounds had a lot more in common with Burt Bacharach than Syd Barrett. 

[Dancing Bear]

Weird. I always thought Pet Sounds had a lot more in common with Burt Bacharach than Syd Barrett. 

Exactly. When I first grabbed a copy of PS, I expected a psychedelic-by-the-book opus, with harpsichords, fuzz guitars, dreamy vocals.....

And the first thing I heard was an accordion. 

[carl r]

Very hard to totally define the Beach Boys, they seem to be many different things to different people 

Musically it's not a huge jump from "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" to "Interstellar Overdrive" but the BBs were/are considered on one side of a cultural divide for whatever reason.

It's certainly true that after '67 Brian wanted to move on in a direction which might have led him to a heavier sound, but it's also true that he wasn't your stereotypical lairy rocker either.

I guess if you spiked Beethoven you'd get psyched-out Beethoven music, not Dave Brock.

[roll plymouth rock]

Don't forget Brian wanted to follow up Smile with a record of water sounds and a comedy album. Avant garde and trippy, yes....rocking out, not so much. Lei'd in Hawaii is another example, super mellow. I don't think Brian was one of those guys who was heavy into tripping people out through epic synth prog jams. Yeah, Smile comes close to this weirdness and was influential on some prog/rock bands (think pink floyd's vocal stuff or elo), but i can't see a really progressive rock album coming from Brian. I think he was probably more occupied with figuring out how to get the kick sound from Be My Baby and other more 'classic' rock & roll things to take a journey off into the void of extended synths solos ala Wakeman.

[brianc]

His sound was too concise for jamming. The spaciness was experimentation within the style he helped invent, master and which he felt most comfortable producing.

[sockittome]

His sound was too concise for jamming. The spaciness was experimentation within the style he helped invent, master and which he felt most comfortable producing.

With this in mind, I would compare SMiLE-era Brian with Moody Blues rather than Pink Floyd.   

[Mahalo]

I compare SMiLE! with nothing....there is nothing to compare it to. Period...


......except New Kids on the Block....

[roll plymouth rock]

I compare SMiLE! with nothing....there is nothing to compare it to. Period...


......except New Kids on the Block....

I think there are some things it is similar to. Like The Millennium - Begin, Van Dyke Parks - Song Cycle or Jan & Dean - Carnival of Sound as well as lots of various 45s that came out of L.A. at that time. Each of them unique in their own way of course, but on the same wavelength in terms of vibes IMO

[Mahalo]

Vibes I agree.... but that is very vague....


All I suggest is that songs like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Wonderful, Wind Chimes, etc, are so genius, so far beyond anything that the music is incomparable...but as far as vibes are concerned, I agree.

Brian Wilson is Brian Wilson....B.D.W.....I find no comparisons...maybe (probably) I'm just giddy....