How legit are the lawsuit songwriting credits?

[BJL]

Hi all!
I've been looking around for this information and i havn't been able to find much conclusive, so i was just wondering how legitimate people feel like the lawsuit awarded songwriting credits are?

My personal hunch tends to be, maybe Mike wrote some words for California Girls and All Summer Long and what not, but the Today album i've always sort of seen as a really personal Brian Wilson record, and it's hard for me to believe that Mike Love had a hand in all those songs.  Also, Brian did in 65 gave Love the songwriting credit on Please Let Me Wonder and Carl on Dance Dance Dance, so why wouldn't Love have gotten credit for other songs he wrote?  I don't know if there are any conclusive answers for any of this, but i'm sort of wondering what the prevailing wisdom is. 

Also, the lawsuit where the Landy co-writes were thrown out--specifically on the 1988 solo album, ignoring what the credits say, who actually wrote the words to those songs?  Was Brian really working alone?   

Thanks a bunch! 

Bj

[Surfer Joe]

Uh-oh.

[mikeyj]

My personal hunch tends to be, maybe Mike wrote some words for California Girls and All Summer Long and what not, but the Today album i've always sort of seen as a really personal Brian Wilson record, and it's hard for me to believe that Mike Love had a hand in all those songs.  Also, Brian did in 65 gave Love the songwriting credit on Please Let Me Wonder and Carl on Dance Dance Dance, so why wouldn't Love have gotten credit for other songs he wrote?  I don't know if there are any conclusive answers for any of this, but i'm sort of wondering what the prevailing wisdom is. 

This is obviously a tricky subject that a lot of people have differing views on. Obviously nobody knows the real answer but my guess is that some of the songs he wrote a lot of - one of the more common beliefs is that he wrote most of if not all of California Girls - and some he just contributed a line or two (eg: Wouldn't It Be Nice). I agree that the Today! album does seem a lot like Brian's feelings but it could well be like Pet Sounds and Tony Asher. I mean Tony has said that he and Brian used to get in the right mood (talking about relationships and all of life's problems etc..) before writing and perhaps it is the same with Brian+Mike. Maybe Mike was writing through Brian if you know what I mean?

I do find it a little strange that it took Mike so long to sue for co-writing those songs especially after Gary Usher and Roger Christian had died. I know others (such as Sheriff John Stone) have made the point that Mike just wanted to work with Brian still and hence didn't sue until he finally thought "well I'm probably never going to get to work with him now". And that is a fair point but still after 30+ years after some of those songs were written it makes me think just how much Mike really remembers about what he wrote etc.. And the perfect example is Mike claiming he co-wrote Don't Worry Baby in that recent article that was discussed on this board a few days back. Mike didn't even sue for that back in 1992, and okay, sure he is even older now than back then, but even still DWB was credited to "B. Wilson/R. Christian/M. Love" on that NASCAR album. And when Mike comes out and starts suing Brian for all of these other ridiculous reasons (in my opinion, the songwriting lawsuit is the only reasonable reason to sue Brian) it makes me question him even further. I mean what else besides money could have motivated Mike to sue Brian so many times?

Also, the lawsuit where the Landy co-writes were thrown out--specifically on the 1988 solo album, ignoring what the credits say, who actually wrote the words to those songs?  Was Brian really working alone?   

In my opinion a lot of those Landy co-writes were written by Landy (the lyrics of course) but after what he did to Brian, I don't think he deserves credit for anything on that album. The same goes for Never Learn Not To Love. Stuff Manson, he doesn't deserve credit for that one either.

[MBE]

I feel that they are legit. Brian said they were himself! That said I think every other Mike Love suit was unnecessary (except his divorces of course). Yet I do feel for Mike here about how Murry and David Leaf tried to write him out of history. No wonder he is defensive of his work.

[mikeyj]

I feel that they are legit. Brian said they were himself!

Well that aint saying much. As we all know Brian says a lot of bullmerda and as I argued with Mike and it's even moreso with Brian, how much does he REALLY remember?

Yet I do feel for Mike here about how Murry and David Leaf tried to write him out of history. No wonder he is defensive of his work.

I too feel sorry for Mike and it's probably most likely that Mike did have some hand in all of the songs he sued for, but I still will never be convinced either way just because there is enough evidence for me to feel suspicious about his claims. In regards to Leaf, I feel like he has done more bad than good. But that's just my opinion.

I know people say "it was Murry's fault that Mike didn't get credit". Where did that come from? I just don't remember hearing a good reason on why it's Murry's fault?

[Surfer Joe]

Murry ran the publishing.

[lance]

I think he had a hand in those. On some of them, I think he wrote most of the lyrics. On others I think he contributed a line or two ; on others, I think he might have just added a vocal hook or come up with his own bass vocal; on others, he likely edited Brian's words--or told them they were crap--in order to make them sound a little more articulate/less weird/more commercial.


I guess from all I've read I think he deserves equal credit on many of them. On others, I think that he probably gets/got more credit than he deserves. ONe thing's for sure.

If everybody started suing for some of the contrubutions he is said to have made(a line on a song?) I think just about every songwriter in the world would have got sued. You know, just because I come up with the first line in an otherwise complete song doesn't make me  a songwriter, or a giddy-up giddy up here and there doesn't mean I should get songwriter credit. A lot of those things I think should be considered "arrangement".

Nevertheless I think he had a hand in the ones he sued for.

They say that the original lyrics of "Don't Worry Baby" were about a soldier going to war. Maybe Brian wrote most of those, Mike helped out with them--then they were rewritten by Christian to be a less heavy car song. IN which case, I would argue that Love's co-writing credit might be legit if they helped shape the initial melody(to which different lyrics were later added.)

It's all speculation, anyway.

ONe thing's for sure.(In my mind, anyway.) It was obviously not a partnership like Lennon-McCartney(and I think that Love is trying to rewrite history a bit to make it that way.). It was dominated by Wilson, talent-wise. Some of those Wilson-Love songs SCREAM Wilson to me, lyrically.

[MBE]

Mike made it clear that Murry was who he held most responsible. He claimed Murry and Brian told him they would take care of the situation. I think Mike was under the impression that he was being paid if not getting label credit. I assume that's why he waited so long. I think what also led him to sue at the time was Brian winning 10 million dollars from A&M off his own Sea Of Tunes lawsuit in 1991 and not giving him a share of it. Mike said at that point his lawyers told him that he had never been paid, and as people like Leaf went out of their way to make Mike look unimportant I think it was inevitable. History was distorted, I remember David questioning why Brian wrote with Mike at all in the late sixties and seventies since they did so little in the 62-66 period.

As far as Brian, he always gave Mike a lot of credit. You can go clear back to 1976 for him saying that he wrote most with Mike Love. Interviews in the mid sixties also made it clear that Mike wrote most of the lyrics. I even remember Dennis stating that in a 1977 interview. So it's not just people like Terry Melcher and Bruce sticking up for Mike after the suit, all evidence suggests he did write these songs. Only some of Brian's other co-writers dispute the claim, and I think that may be because Mike didn't liked being usurped and could be prickly about people coming in thus some bad blood?

I again think Mike got suit happy (and so did Brian ie Joe Thomas) but his place in the Beach Boys history has now been largely restored and rightfully so. One last thing Don't Run Away is proof enough to me that Mike was fully capable of writing the songs on Today.

[shelter]

Based on the image I have of Mike Love as a person, my guess would be that he probably did contribute something to all of these songs, but in some cases probably not enough for a (for most people's standards) reasonable co-writing credit. I presume that Mike's the kind of guy who sees himself as a co-writer when he adds a finishing touch to a song that's already 95% finished, while most others would probably just see that as helping out.

[John]

I can see Mike's point. Nobody ever mentions Wilson-Love in the same breath as Jagger-Richards, let alone Lennon-McCartney. It's always just Brian. Pet Sounds and SMiLE aside, Mike kinda deserves that, being a (nearly) equal part in the equation.

[mikeyj]

I can see Mike's point. Nobody ever mentions Wilson-Love in the same breath as Jagger-Richards, let alone Lennon-McCartney. It's always just Brian. Pet Sounds and SMiLE aside, Mike kinda deserves that, being a (nearly) equal part in the equation.

But then again nobody ever (well rarely anyway) mentions The Beach Boys in the same breath as The Rolling Stones or The Beatles. I just wish Mike instead of constantly saying in interviews "I co-wrote Good Vibrations and Kokomo etc.." I just wish he would talk about some of the other Beach Boys music in order to perhaps further promote the band as more than just a fun in the sun type band. Honestly if I hear a musician talk about a song that I have never heard of it is more likely to interest me than if Mick Jagger says "I wrote Satisfaction".

[TdHabib]

I do agree that Mike deserves most of them, but there's a few that always stuck out:
Gaines mentioned that Brian himself wrote the lyrics to "Let Him Run Wld", about Murry's extramarital affairs, yet Mike gets the credit?
"In The Back of My Mind" just doesn't sound like a Mike lyric to me.
And, of course, he had no business with "Wouldn't it Be Nice" aside from five words. It's like somebody getting credit for a count-off!

But I'm happy that Mike didn't sue for "The Little Girl I Once Knew," that's one of the definitive, pure BW songs...

[Andrew G. Doe]

The same goes for Never Learn Not To Love. Stuff Manson, he doesn't deserve credit for that one either.

So it would be OK for me to cover, say, "I'm Beggin' You Please", change the lyric a little and not give Brian any credit ?  Manson wrote "Cease To Exist", and Dennis adapted it into "NLNTL". He may not be a model citizen, but Manson deserves to be credited.

[mikeyj]

So it would be OK for me to cover, say, "I'm Beggin' You Please", change the lyric a little and not give Brian any credit ?  Manson wrote "Cease To Exist", and Dennis adapted it into "NLNTL". He may not be a model citizen, but Manson deserves to be credited.

Obviously Manson does have credit now. Clearly everyone has their views but let me put it this way, Manson was reponsible for the murder of several people (I'm guessing about 6 or something but even one is tragic) so to be honest I couldn't care less if Manson wrote every Beatles song and wasn't credited. When it comes down to it, a persons life is more important than a stupid songwriting credit. Yes Manson wrote it but I don't care that he wasn't credited considering what he did to those people. Murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc.. are the lowest scum of this earth and I'm sorry but I just don't care that Manson wasn't credited. I feel sorry for a guy like Stephen Kalinich who wrote All I Want To Do but wasn't given credit at the time.

[Dancing Bear]

Manson isn't credited but everyone knows the Beach Boys recorded one of his songs. Sad but true: this association helps more than hurts the band's street cred in the eyes of the rock audience.

[elnombre]

I can see Mike's point. Nobody ever mentions Wilson-Love in the same breath as Jagger-Richards, let alone Lennon-McCartney. It's always just Brian. Pet Sounds and SMiLE aside, Mike kinda deserves that, being a (nearly) equal part in the equation.

But then again nobody ever (well rarely anyway) mentions The Beach Boys in the same breath as The Rolling Stones or The Beatles. I just wish Mike instead of constantly saying in interviews "I co-wrote Good Vibrations and Kokomo etc.." I just wish he would talk about some of the other Beach Boys music in order to perhaps further promote the band as more than just a fun in the sun type band. Honestly if I hear a musician talk about a song that I have never heard of it is more likely to interest me than if Mick Jagger says "I wrote Satisfaction".

I just wish he would talk about some of the other Beach Boys music in order to perhaps further promote the band as more than just a fun in the sun type band.

Seemingly that side of the band is all he's interested in these days. I just wish he'd make a stronger statement as to his songwriting abilities by writing some decent new songs and putting them out instead of trying to reiterate his former glories. Instead he puts out sh*t like 'Santa's Going to fucking Kokomo' and wonders why he doesn't get props.

[John]

I can see Mike's point. Nobody ever mentions Wilson-Love in the same breath as Jagger-Richards, let alone Lennon-McCartney. It's always just Brian. Pet Sounds and SMiLE aside, Mike kinda deserves that, being a (nearly) equal part in the equation.

But then again nobody ever (well rarely anyway) mentions The Beach Boys in the same breath as The Rolling Stones or The Beatles.

I'm not sure about that. In the music magazines like MOJO it's more likely they'll put the Beach Boys alongside the Beatles than they'll put the Stones with the Fab Four.

[Ian]

In his Goldmine interview with Ken Sharp (1992)-Mike talked at length about his contributions.  In his defense-he did not say that he wrote all the words to those songs-he spells out how much he wrote of a number of songs in that interview-on some it was a word or two, in others a middle eight and for some it was all the lyrics...Check it out-I believe it is online at  http://www.geocities.com/thelittlepad/mikelove.html For example-Mike states that the only line he wrote on Help Me Rhonda was "Since you put me down I've been out doing in my head"-implication is that Brian wrote the rest. Similarly-He stated that on their other number one-I Get Around he only wrote "round round get around" -so he wrote the hook and Brian wrote the rest.

[Dancing Bear]

Similarly-He stated that on their other number one-I Get Around he only wrote "round round get around" -so he wrote the hook and Brian wrote the rest.

Actually: "In "I Get Around," Brian had "I get around from town to town, I'm a real cool head, I'm making real good bread." I wrote the verses through, and the "round round get around" part."

[Andrew G. Doe]

So it would be OK for me to cover, say, "I'm Beggin' You Please", change the lyric a little and not give Brian any credit ?  Manson wrote "Cease To Exist", and Dennis adapted it into "NLNTL". He may not be a model citizen, but Manson deserves to be credited.

Obviously Manson does have credit now. Clearly everyone has their views but let me put it this way, Manson was reponsible for the murder of several people (I'm guessing about 6 or something but even one is tragic) so to be honest I couldn't care less if Manson wrote every Beatles song and wasn't credited. When it comes down to it, a persons life is more important than a stupid songwriting credit. Yes Manson wrote it but I don't care that he wasn't credited considering what he did to those people. Murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc.. are the lowest scum of this earth and I'm sorry but I just don't care that Manson wasn't credited. I feel sorry for a guy like Stephen Kalinich who wrote All I Want To Do but wasn't given credit at the time.

By which reasoning, Phil Spector's entire output should now be buried in a deep pit and never mentioned again.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I just wish he would talk about some of the other Beach Boys music in order to perhaps further promote the band as more than just a fun in the sun type band.

Seemingly that side of the band is all he's interested in these days.

Have you seen some of The Beach Boys' recent setlists?

[Aegir]

"These days" is anti-Mike Love code for the live period right after Al left the band and all they did was car medleys and long rambling 20 minute Be True To Your Schools and unnecessary Jan and Dean covers.

All of which they still do in the shows... but in recent years, those songs have been supplemented with Forever, Let Him Run Wild, Ballad of Ole Betsy, Sail On Sailor, Everyone's in Love With You, Feel Flows (once), and even new Mike Love material such as Cool Head Warm Heart, Pisces Brothers, and Mike Love Not War.

[the captain]

So it would be OK for me to cover, say, "I'm Beggin' You Please", change the lyric a little and not give Brian any credit ?  Manson wrote "Cease To Exist", and Dennis adapted it into "NLNTL". He may not be a model citizen, but Manson deserves to be credited.

Obviously Manson does have credit now. Clearly everyone has their views but let me put it this way, Manson was reponsible for the murder of several people (I'm guessing about 6 or something but even one is tragic) so to be honest I couldn't care less if Manson wrote every Beatles song and wasn't credited. When it comes down to it, a persons life is more important than a stupid songwriting credit. Yes Manson wrote it but I don't care that he wasn't credited considering what he did to those people. Murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc.. are the lowest scum of this earth and I'm sorry but I just don't care that Manson wasn't credited. I feel sorry for a guy like Stephen Kalinich who wrote All I Want To Do but wasn't given credit at the time.

By which reasoning, Phil Spector's entire output should now be buried in a deep pit and never mentioned again.

I've got to agree with Andrew here. It isn't about whether people like Manson--I doubt much of anyone does. Giving him credit for songwriting doesn't mean the same thing as liking him or even liking his songwriting. It just means being factually accurate: if Manson is the writer, it should be said that Manson is the writer. Kobe Bryant is still suspected of having committed a rape several years ago. If in tonight's game against the Celtics he scores 45 points, the scorekeeper ought to list his name before that "45," in the box score, not next to Sasha Vujacic's out of some kind of disgust for alleged rapists.

[elnombre]

The fact that someone being a murderer/rapist is a terrible, unforgivable thing doesn't make not crediting someone for their work a good thing.

[Ptolemaios]

Off-topic: I believe the music of Mozart is more important than the lives of six people if it comes to that. There are over six BILLION people in the world but history knows only one mozart + couple others who are in the same league. So yes, I think somebody should get credit if they wrote something, no matter if they have done a serious crime.