a SMiLE question or 3

[Sheriff John Stone]

Perhaps the running order advised by Domenic Priore in the 2nd edition of "Look Listen Vibrate Smile" is closer to what a 1960's "Smile" would have been like.

If anybody has time, would they kindly post Domenic's order. Thanks....

SIDE ONE: Heroes And Villians/Do You Dig Worms/You Are My Sunshine/Wonderful/Child Is Father To The Man/ Our Prayer/Cabinessence
SIDE TWO: Good Vibrations/ (The Elements)-Vegetables-Wind Chimes-Mrs. O'Leary's Cow-Cool Cool Water/Surf's Up

Thanks, AvanTodd....I gotta digest that list/sequence a little bit....

[buddhahat]

O the subject of Great Shape: a thought which occurred to me last night -

There's a Brian mix of various Heroes sections starting with Gee - I presume it's what he was doing for H&V part 2 - the b-side to the Heroes single (imo, but it's the most feasible assumption I think). It's very similar to Linnett's Heroes sections mix on the GV box, accept it misses the False Barnyard tag, and dum dum bit before the tag. Anyway, my point is you can hear that the swedish frog section has been physically chopped out of the mix. This always makes me wonder why he spliced it out, and the only logical conclusion was that he wanted to use Swedish Frog somewhere else, but where? Well if Great Shape, by the time of the hand written list given to Capitol, had become it's own track, then the Swedish Frog section with it's barnyard chant feel would be a perfect addition to the track. It might have started with Great shape as we know (eggs & grits etc.) running into Swedish Frog, and finishing with Barnyard as a fade. Barnyard following Swedish Frog works really well as it's very similar in tempo to the Heroes section that follows it in Mark Linnett's mix. This version of Great shape becomes a sort of Barnyard suite, with 3 definite barnyard themed pieces put together - maybe the Barnyard suite that Brian(?) described later on, was actually Great shape with various barnyard bits following it. I'm going to try this in my mix anyway!

[Bicyclerider]

Brian, not Darian, but Brian, had the chance to set the record straight (no pun intended) when he put "I'm In Great Shape" - "I Wanna Be Around" - "Workshop" in that running order on BWPS. That sequencing is something one would remember from the 1966-67 project. We're not talking about a song construction, melody, and/or lyrics. If you believe that Brian had major input into BWPS (which I don't BTW), then you have to think this is the way it was meant to be.



The problem with that is that all through the project Brian was quoted as saying this was not an attempt to "finish" Smile as it would have been finished in 1967 - instead it was the creation of a Smile suite of songs and fragments which was meant to be performed live, and only subsequently was recorded for release.  The most evident difference is the use of link tracks and songs going one into the other, which both Van dyke and Brian have said would not have been the case in 1967.  So the sequencing was something Brian and Van dykie and Darian cooked up for the modern release of smile, and is not necessarily related to any sequencing planned for 1967.

[c-man]

On the other hand, Brian has said numerous times that they only had to put together the third suite, which could imply that the order of the first two suites was more-or-less a given. 

[sockittome]

In Brian's piano runthrough of H&V for Van Dyke, he goes into I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard, as if it were all part of the same section.  Was this the original plan, or was Brian just drifting from one section to another?

[John]

I think he was drifting, because of his saying, "Well, we're still working" or something like that. It seems from that that you wouldn't really say that halfway through a song if that was the correct sequence.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian, not Darian, but Brian, had the chance to set the record straight (no pun intended) when he put "I'm In Great Shape" - "I Wanna Be Around" - "Workshop" in that running order on BWPS. That sequencing is something one would remember from the 1966-67 project. We're not talking about a song construction, melody, and/or lyrics. If you believe that Brian had major input into BWPS (which I don't BTW), then you have to think this is the way it was meant to be.



The problem with that is that all through the project Brian was quoted as saying this was not an attempt to "finish" Smile as it would have been finished in 1967 - instead it was the creation of a Smile suite of songs and fragments which was meant to be performed live, and only subsequently was recorded for release.  The most evident difference is the use of link tracks and songs going one into the other, which both Van dyke and Brian have said would not have been the case in 1967.  So the sequencing was something Brian and Van dykie and Darian cooked up for the modern release of smile, and is not necessarily related to any sequencing planned for 1967.

When I wrote "set the record straight", it applied to BOTH 1966-67 and BWPS. Either one. Brian could've gone back to a proposed/speculated sequence from 1966-67, if there was one, and said, "This is the way I planned it". Or, he could've "set the record straight" by sequencing it the way he did on BWPS - on the studio CD, not the concert setlist - which is how it will now stay forever.

Personally, and I'm not trying to start anything, I think Darian sequenced it, played it for Brian, and Brian said, "Yeah, sounds good..."

[Chris Brown]

In Brian's piano runthrough of H&V for Van Dyke, he goes into I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard, as if it were all part of the same section.  Was this the original plan, or was Brian just drifting from one section to another?

I believe that Great Shape and Barnyard were originally written as Heroes sections, but at some point Brian decided to turn them each into their own tracks.  But when he played that piano version, those 3 sections were all Heroes I'm pretty sure.

[Amy B.]

All this talk about Brian's intended sequence... I thought he didn't have an intended sequence in 1966-67, and that was one reason why he began to feel overwhelmed with the whole project. I thought the intended sequence was changing all the time, according to Brian's whim? I mean, Heroes and Villains alone has so many incarnations. Are we really to believe that 1966-67 Brian had a longstanding plan for anything regarding Smile's sequence?

[the captain]

Are we really to believe that 1966-67 Brian had a longstanding plan for anything regarding Smile's sequence?

I strongly believe the answer is no. I doubt he ever had an overriding plan, but more likely went through numerous options as moods or whims struck him. That's why I always disregard most of the "this is how he intended it" talk: I don't believe he had any single intent for it.

[Mahalo]

I strongly believe the answer is no. I doubt he ever had an overriding plan, but more likely went through numerous options as moods or whims struck him. That's why I always disregard most of the "this is how he intended it" talk: I don't believe he had any single intent for it.

......then again, never underestimate Brian, his decisions, and what was really going on in his head, in his world...something tells me that the man who wrote Cabinessence, Surf's Up, and the rests of 'em would've been very aware in his mind of the way the music was to be presented- not saying he did but I wouldn't be surprised.

As far as BWPS, the same thing goes. Holidays into Wind Chimes must've been an original idea. Brian may have had a bigger part in the sequencing than we are led to believe. Consider that Van Dyke worked with him too. His influence must not be overlooked.

Also the way Wonderful fades out on the box always led me to believe that there was meant to be more. Wonderful into Look is too natural a transition to have been put together by Darian. Granted, Darian may have discovered the connection but I feel it was intentional from the get- go.

You know, I just get the feeling that with BWPS we may not be giving Brian enough credit...maybe I'm wrong.

[the captain]

I'm not selling him short. I'm saying that an intelligent, musical man working with a lot of deliberately interchangeable parts was bound to play around with the possibilities, that's all.

[Amy B.]

Also the way Wonderful fades out on the box always led me to believe that there was meant to be more. Wonderful into Look is too natural a transition to have been put together by Darian. Granted, Darian may have discovered the connection but I feel it was intentional from the get- go.

You know, I just get the feeling that with BWPS we may not be giving Brian enough credit...maybe I'm wrong.

I agree that Brian had something to do with the sequencing of BWPS. .. unless all of these people consider Darian to be a liar! In the NPR interview that went with the presentation of the Carnegie Show, Darian talked about how Brian heard the chords of Wonderful and then the chords of Look (or Child) and said to Darian, "That goes next to that!"  I'm not saying Brian did it all-- clearly, you can tell that wasn't the case, even by watching David Leaf's doc.

Also, in another interview, Darian said he played the 60s recording of something from Smile to Brian, who said, "No. Let's not use that. Throw that away." And Darian said it wasn't used because of that, no questions asked. He tried to keep Brian in the loop, if not in charge, and when Brian was engaged, he listened to what Brian wanted.

[Mahalo]

I'm not selling him short. I'm saying that an intelligent, musical man working with a lot of deliberately interchangeable parts was bound to play around with the possibilities, that's all.

I understand and agree with you...it's just that when it comes down to BWPS I'm hoping Brian was more involved than we are inclined to believe so I try to stick up for him in this respect...probably rightfully so.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Also, in another interview, Darian said he played the 60s recording of something from Smile to Brian, who said, "No. Let's not use that. Throw that away." And Darian said it wasn't used because of that, no questions asked. He tried to keep Brian in the loop, if not in charge, and when Brian was engaged, he listened to what Brian wanted.

That is the one area where I think Brian had the most input (see, I do give him SOME credit), which is WHAT SONGS he seriously considered to be in the final 1966-67 album.

I actually have this mental picture of Brian laying on his couch, with Darian sitting there with his laptop, playing some mp3's for Brian, like "He Gives Speeches", "With Me Tonight", and "You're Welcome", and Brian responding with, "Yeah, that was gonna be on", or " No, no, we junked that". And, then Darian knew which songs to work on and which ones to not waste his time working on. I have to believe Brian would remember the basic question - is that a song that would've made the final cut, and which ones were just experiments that didn't "fit" the puzzle?

Of course, which has been pointed out, 1966-67 SMiLE was such a work in progress that it's difficult to pinpoint WHEN a song was in contention to be included, and when - and if -  it got cut.

[Bicyclerider]

In Brian's piano runthrough of H&V for Van Dyke, he goes into I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard, as if it were all part of the same section.  Was this the original plan, or was Brian just drifting from one section to another?

I believe that Great Shape and Barnyard were originally written as Heroes sections, but at some point Brian decided to turn them each into their own tracks.  But when he played that piano version, those 3 sections were all Heroes I'm pretty sure.

When you listen to the demo, he does go right into Shape from the the Heroes verses.  Then he says "here's another section" or something to that effect and goes into Barnyard, and says "we're still working."  From that I deduce that indeed Shape was to immediately follow the verses, and that Barnyard was another section, likely the fade, but they were still working on other sections/transitions that he didn't play or they hadn't written yet.  Cantina was not yet written for example.  Van Dyke in Priore's book mentions that Shape and Barnyard were part of Heroes from the beginning, and that Cantina came later (no doubt when Shape/Barnyard were excised and made into their own song).

[XY]

Talking about H&V sections, "My Only Sunshine"  allegedly was part of the very first H&V basic track, the session that was recorded in May 1966 and taped over.

In November, it wasn't part of H&V anymore, it was now in the middle of a 3 part-suite with "Old Master Painter" at the beginning and "False Barnyard" aka "Barnshine" as part 3.

The same "False Barnyard" became the last part of the "Heroes & Villains" cantina mix in January 1967 of course, just to be completely rerecorded in Feburary with the same arrangement. Confusing.

[sockittome]

I realize how pointless it is to speculate on how SMiLE would've been sequenced in '67, but it sure makes for some interesting discussion! 

[Sheriff John Stone]

I realize how pointless it is to speculate on how SMiLE would've been sequenced in '67, but it sure makes for some interesting discussion! 

It is interesting, and frustrating, in that we have to speculate instead of going right to the source. For as great as the SMiLE music is - arguably among the greatest music of the 20th century - I still find it hard to believe that there has never been a detailed, relaxed, informative, track-by-track, exlorative, in depth interview with Brian Wilson about the SMiLE songs. I mean, has it ever even been planned, even in its infancy stages? Even for historical purposes?

Brian has now lived 41 years since he created that music, 41 years....I just find it hard to believe....I mean, I think of other artists who have discussed their songs/music through the years - Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Ray Davies, even Bob Dylan (see Biograph) have opened up....and there wasn't as much mystique and questions about their songs....

[c-man]

Well, for a LONG time, Brian wouldn't talk about SMiLE at all to any great extent, because of the bad mojo he associated with it.  Things changed in the 2000s of course, but even in the heady SMiLE days of 2004, getting Brian to talk about ANYTHING in an in-depth manner is hit-and-miss.

[sockittome]

Yeah, but you gotta remember, we're talking about SMiLE here, a one of a kind project.  The other artists you mention had their challenges, but nothing like SMiLE.

And we're talking about Brian here.  He never seems to want to talk about SMiLE, and interviewers have tried to pry it out of him for years.  

[sockittome]

c-man, you beat me to it, but I think we pretty much said the same thing!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yeah, but you gotta remember, we're talking about SMiLE here, a one of a kind project.  The other artists you mention had their challenges, but nothing like SMiLE.

That's even more reason why I want it! It is a one of a kind project. There HASN'T been anything like SMiLE. It's a part of HISTORY. I'll even volunteer to do the interview. Melinda, are you out there?

[Bicyclerider]

Talking about H&V sections, "My Only Sunshine"  allegedly was part of the very first H&V basic track, the session that was recorded in May 1966 and taped over.

The interesting thing about this session is that it PREDATES Van Dyke's involvement, if you believe Brian and Van Dyke who date their meeting at Terry Melcher's when they decided to collaborate as July 1966.  So Brian did indeed have the title of the song, presumably the verse sections, and then a My Only Sunshine fade.  Which means he was already writing and thinking in "sections" that could be interchangeable with other songs in May 66, before Good Vibrations was close to being finished.

[buddhahat]

Doesn't Siegel talk about the moment Brian comes up with the YAMS bit in The Goodbye Surfing article? Surely this would date it way after May 66.

What's interesting about the article is that he describes this weird clarinet bit that Brian comes up with based on the bassline of Sunshine (or somesuch) and I couldn't work out which piece of music this was, but just recently it occurred to me that Siegel's most likely referring to the False Barnyard fade that was originally part of Sunshine. What's confusing though is that he describes Brian recording Barnyard and woodshop sounds over this piece - maybe False Barnyard did have such sound effects at one point.

Sherriff John Stone:
I don't believe that Brian just lazily okd Darian's sequence for BWPS, and nothing more. In the Priore book, Darian explains that Brian grouped the songs based on their sound, rather than thematically. He explains that the Americana and Life-cyle songs songs sort of gravitated towards each other as a result of this. In the process, Brian made some interesting decisions - one of which was to butt Look straight after Wonderful; apparently Brian's decision. I don't find it hard to believe that Brian was engaged enough to group like-sounding songs together and make musical decisions about which songs would follow which.

It seems that Darian probably would point out here and there what songs might have significant relationships and explains that he bought it to Brian's attention that Holidays had a link to Wind-Chimes in its tag. Brian says oh yeah and so they put those songs together. I guess Darian would just be speeding the process up in doing this, after all, something like that is failry siginificant, yet might be missed by someone who hasn't listened to Smile or Smiley Smile in 38 years. 

Therefor as I see it, yes Brian played a significant role in the sequencing. Ultimately I believe it was led By Brian's choices on which songs would they would keep, and which would be trashed, and also on which songs would be grouped together. But I also think this was probably aided by Darian with the occasional nudge here and there as to which songs had significant links to one another. Therefor I think Brian's role in this process was much more significant than many here give him credit for.