a SMiLE question or 3

[bossaroo]

1) was the original track of "I'm In Great Shape" (sax, bass & piano) connected to  "I Wanna Be Around"?

2) is there a name for the section that closes the cantina version of H&V found on the GV boxset? this same section closes the "H&V sections" track on the same disc. it features pizzicatto strings, harmonica and Brian's vocals.

3) at one point, didn't Brian say that "Surf's Up" would close the album?



thanks.
now let me think of a few more

[Jason]

In order -

No.

No, but it was once thought to be Barnyard, until the actual Barnyard came out. It's since referred to as "false Barnyard".

Yes. Brian always contradicts himself. For all we know, he probably wanted H&V to close the LP.

You're welcome.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yes. Brian always contradicts himself. For all we know, he probably wanted H&V to close the LP.

You're welcome.

I like "Heroes And Villains" as a closer, especially with "false Barnyard" tacked on to the end. The lyrics to "H & V" are in past tense, and it makes a nice review for the album, fading off into the sunset.

And, "You're Welcome" is the perfect opening track. "You're welcome to come...to Plymouth Rock...on the voyage...on the trip...the SMiLE trip".... 

[Jason]

Wow, an offhand remark of mine got a response like that....seriously though, it makes sense having H&V at the end, but this WAS 1966-67. I don't think Brian had any intention of a "concept album". Even BWPS, that sounds like a concept album.

BRIAN DOES NOT MAKE PROGRESSIVE ROCK! (this yelling is performed with love and mercy)

Sheesh, if Brian heard Rick Wankerman (koff) he'd probably have an episode, assume the fetal position in the shower, and wait for the poisonous gas to come out of the shower head (old BW story from the 70s, in some of the books). That Moog wankery would throw the poor man for a loop!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Wow, an offhand remark of mine got a response like that....seriously though, it makes sense having H&V at the end, but this WAS 1966-67. I don't think Brian had any intention of a "concept album". Even BWPS, that sounds like a concept album.

Yeah, I don't think "Heroes And Villains" has ever been mentioned as a closer, except on assorted fan mixes. But the lyrics, "I've BEEN in this town so long" and "taken for lost and GONE" and "fell in love YEARS AGO" and "but she's STILL dancing" and "my children WERE raised" and "they started slow LONG AGO" and on and on...

But, I guess it could also be a guy who is telling his story by LOOKING BACK FIRST. I love trying to figure out SMiLE, because you can do whatever you want, and no matter what configuration you use, it always comes out sounding good.

[Jason]

It makes sense, but only to us. I doubt that Brian would have done Smile as a concept LP. BWPS, sorry...that ain't Brian who assembled that (sorry, Darian, Melinda, and Leaf).

[Mahalo]

I love trying to figure out SMiLE, because you can do whatever you want, and no matter what configuration you use, it always comes out sounding good.

Agreed.

It makes sense, but only to us. I doubt that Brian would have done Smile as a concept LP.

I think SMiLE! was as much a concept as Pet Sounds, whatever that means.

BWPS, sorry...that ain't Brian who assembled that (sorry, Darian, Melinda, and Leaf).

...the only difference that seperates BWPS from any other fan mix is that BWPS had the final go ahead from Brian Wilson...that may not be the same Brian Wilson of 1967, but it's still Brian Wilson. Or is it Brian Ledbetter, I get confused....

[peerke]

I think SMiLE! was as much a concept as Pet Sounds, whatever that means.

Or Sgt. Pepper's for that matter.

[Jason]

I don't even think Brian considered Pet Sounds a concept either, despite what Melinda tells him to, I mean, despite what Brian says now. Pet Sounds and Smile were pop albums in 1966-67. Nothing more, nothing less.

[buddhahat]

How come everyone's so convinced that Brian had nothing to do with the sequencing of BWPS? Weren't he and Darian fairly emphatic that Brian was significantly involved in the sequencing? I find it hard to believe that Brian had absolutely NO input in the sequencing of BWPS, after all, he could remember the melody for Worms - I doubt this was a tune which he whistled on a regular basis in the preceding 38 years. It amazes me how little credit Brian now gets for BWPS, yet read any interview with Darian at the time and he seems fairly excited by the process of recreating Smile with BW and VDP, and Brian's engagement in the project.

Surf's Up as a closer makes a lot of sense to me. Plus doesn't Vosse put it there in that 1968 interview he does? Interestingly in the same interview (if I remember correctly) Vosse places SU at the end, followed by Our Prayer, which means that Our Prayer at one point was potentially the closer to the album, which in honesty makes more sense for me, than it being an intro followed by H&V as it appears in BWPS.

Siegel also describes BW playing the acetates at a party, and that Our Prayer was the last acetate he played. The way Siegel describes the music gives the impression that Our Prayer was a perfect closer to the Smile music.

I know Brian can be clearly heard during the OP session saying it's the intro to the album, but I think it's highly likely that he changed his mind. I prefer it at the end myself. As Sherrif John Stone points out, pretty much any Smile track can go anywhere and no one can argue with you!

[buddhahat]

1) was the original track of "I'm In Great Shape" (sax, bass & piano) connected to  "I Wanna Be Around"?

Priore, in his infamous (well, here anyway) post BWPS book puts up a good case for I Wanna Be Around following Fire. Apparently Carol Kaye remembers it being this way when she played at the sessions, plus the times of the pieces add up (to something - can't remember what, but it's convincing) but more importantly put I Wanna Be Around after Fire and it just sounds perfect - better than any other marriage of Smile tracks imo. The pieces definitely suit each other better than Fire and the Water chant to my ears - the way the last few bass drums (the sound of faling timbers?) drift into the mellow lounge music of IWBA is very groovy, less obvious than 'water putting out the fire' and totally the sort of thing BW would have done at the time. IMO!!

[pmugghc]

I' would have liked "You're Welcome" as the opening track.  I've read somewhere it was just meant to be a little warm-up for the live performances.  But I just love it. That's my 2nd disappointment with BWPS, the other being the exclusion of the fade tag to Vegetables that's on the box set.

[Amanda Hart]

Priore, in his infamous (well, here anyway) post BWPS book puts up a good case for I Wanna Be Around following Fire. Apparently Carol Kaye remembers it being this way when she played at the sessions, plus the times of the pieces add up (to something - can't remember what, but it's convincing) but more importantly put I Wanna Be Around after Fire and it just sounds perfect - better than any other marriage of Smile tracks imo. The pieces definitely suit each other better than Fire and the Water chant to my ears - the way the last few bass drums (the sound of faling timbers?) drift into the mellow lounge music of IWBA is very groovy, less obvious than 'water putting out the fire' and totally the sort of thing BW would have done at the time. IMO!!

I totally agree, Fire into I Wanna Be Around is the best order.  They do fit really nicely together and I always thought of it as rebuilding after the fire to finish the elements.

[buddhahat]

Priore, in his infamous (well, here anyway) post BWPS book puts up a good case for I Wanna Be Around following Fire. Apparently Carol Kaye remembers it being this way when she played at the sessions, plus the times of the pieces add up (to something - can't remember what, but it's convincing) but more importantly put I Wanna Be Around after Fire and it just sounds perfect - better than any other marriage of Smile tracks imo. The pieces definitely suit each other better than Fire and the Water chant to my ears - the way the last few bass drums (the sound of faling timbers?) drift into the mellow lounge music of IWBA is very groovy, less obvious than 'water putting out the fire' and totally the sort of thing BW would have done at the time. IMO!!

I totally agree, Fire into I Wanna Be Around is the best order.  They do fit really nicely together and I always thought of it as rebuilding after the fire to finish the elements.

Yeah the rebuilding idea is great. Damn, Smile is so great I'm going to think of some of my own Smile questions and put them in here!!

1st up: How an earth would H&V intro (or the whistley bit before Fire on BWPS) have been the intro to H&V?! If you just stick it before H&V it sounds really odd. Maybe BW might have put the flutter horn between the intro and H&V to smooth the transition?

I was listening to some early takes of it, and it started off with a really sinister organ line - reminded me of pantomime villain music, which made me think aha!! Maybe it was originally created to suggest the villains in H&V? It's the first time I've thought that it might actually belong. The only other H&V music which sounds similar is the version of Western theme that has whistles and similar effects on it.

As far as I know, isn't its association with Fire a misconception created by David Leaf?

[bossaroo]

just so I'm clear here.....

the sequencing of "Great Shape" into "I Wanna Be Around" never happened until BWPS?

[Roger Ryan]

just so I'm clear here.....

the sequencing of "Great Shape" into "I Wanna Be Around" never happened until BWPS?

Actual "sequencing"? Then no, not until BWPS. However, I believe there is some tape documentation that suggested at some point in '66 that the two tracks were related (which is probably why they showed up together on BWPS).

[brianc]

That asssumption was based on a mis-labelled AFM sheet, which put "Friday Night"/"I'm in Great Shape" as the tracks cut that day, while the corresponding tape box was for "Friday Night"/"I Wanna Be Around."

[Bicyclerider]

We assume it's mislabelled, but who knows - possibly FN/IWBA was considered by Brian as a section of I'm in Great Shape back then.  I thought the label was "Friday Night (I'm in great Shape)" - the parentheses indicating FN was part of the larger Shape track?

Vosse did say that Surf's Up was talked about as the end of the album, with a coda that was a "chorale" vocals only piece that when described sounds like Prayer but was not identical to Prayer, because at the time of the interview 20/20 was out and Vosse had heard it (he comments on Cabinessence being released and how it was originally planned to be different on Smile) - so he would have mentioned that the track Prayer would have closed the album.  To me it seems he's describing a reprise to Prayer or something similar.  I've been putting the final "Amen" of the Lord's Prayer at the end of my Smile mix to duplicate what he's talking about, but I just thought of something.  There's a Brian mix of the Smile Prayer that has the next to last vocal section edited out.  Could he have done that to place that section at the end?

[Bicyclerider]

Oh, and I forgot - there is a name for the fade section of the cantina version of Heroes besides "false Barnyard" - when it was rerecorded on Feb 28, 1967 it was titled "Fade to Heroes and Villains."

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian, not Darian, but Brian, had the chance to set the record straight (no pun intended) when he put "I'm In Great Shape" - "I Wanna Be Around" - "Workshop" in that running order on BWPS. That sequencing is something one would remember from the 1966-67 project. We're not talking about a song construction, melody, and/or lyrics. If you believe that Brian had major input into BWPS (which I don't BTW), then you have to think this is the way it was meant to be.

[buddhahat]

We assume it's mislabelled, but who knows - possibly FN/IWBA was considered by Brian as a section of I'm in Great Shape back then.  I thought the label was "Friday Night (I'm in great Shape)" - the parentheses indicating FN was part of the larger Shape track?

Vosse did say that Surf's Up was talked about as the end of the album, with a coda that was a "chorale" vocals only piece that when described sounds like Prayer but was not identical to Prayer, because at the time of the interview 20/20 was out and Vosse had heard it (he comments on Cabinessence being released and how it was originally planned to be different on Smile) - so he would have mentioned that the track Prayer would have closed the album.  To me it seems he's describing a reprise to Prayer or something similar.  I've been putting the final "Amen" of the Lord's Prayer at the end of my Smile mix to duplicate what he's talking about, but I just thought of something.  There's a Brian mix of the Smile Prayer that has the next to last vocal section edited out.  Could he have done that to place that section at the end?

That's a really good point that Our Prayer was actually on 20/20 at the time, and that Vosse surely would have called it Our Prayer in the article - I hadn't thought of that.
Maybe as you suggest Brian planned a reprise of Our Prayer to close the album. Also (I'm sure others have suggested this), maybe the coda to Surf's Up would have been a chorale thing similar to Our Prayer - it certainly has a similar descending notes thing to Our Prayer, and the way he sings the wordless aahhs on the demo, it almost could be a reprise of Our Prayer - of course the coda to the 72 version kind of undermines that theory, if you believe that's how Brian intended it in 66, but of course Vosse hadn't heard the 72 version at this point so he could have been describing the actual coda to Surf's Up.

That Vosse article just makes you wish the interviewer had pressed him a bit more at the time. Like: "Wow, a two part a and b side H&V! Can you remember exactly what sections were in parts 1 and 2?!" Actually, didn't Vosse turn up and answer loads of questions on the old Smile shop about this article? Did anyone ask him if he could remember what bits the long H&V had in it? Is that thread still archived anywhere?

[PhilCohen]

Obviously,if released on vinyl in 1966 or 1967, Smile's running order would have had to be different,edited & shorter,due to the time constraints of vinyl(a vinyl L.P. can hold 22 minutes per side before the volume level  must be compromised), but I'm sure,given the mediocre quality of Capitol's pressings in the 1960's,and the limited quality of the typical teenager's phonographs in those days,that Capitol would have been reluctant(a fear of skipping) to go much past 18 minutes per side. The two sides of a vinyl record would have precluded the 3 movement concept that Brian Wilson used on BWPS. Perhaps the running order advised by Domenic Priore in the 2nd edition of "Look Listen Vibrate Smile" is closer to what a 1960's "Smile" would have been like.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Perhaps the running order advised by Domenic Priore in the 2nd edition of "Look Listen Vibrate Smile" is closer to what a 1960's "Smile" would have been like.

If anybody has time, would they kindly post Domenic's order. Thanks....

[?]

Perhaps the running order advised by Domenic Priore in the 2nd edition of "Look Listen Vibrate Smile" is closer to what a 1960's "Smile" would have been like.

If anybody has time, would they kindly post Domenic's order. Thanks....

SIDE ONE: Heroes And Villians/Do You Dig Worms/You Are My Sunshine/Wonderful/Child Is Father To The Man/ Our Prayer/Cabinessence
SIDE TWO: Good Vibrations/ (The Elements)-Vegetables-Wind Chimes-Mrs. O'Leary's Cow-Cool Cool Water/Surf's Up

[sic]

One of the vinyl bootlegs uses this same track list on the first LP.  So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Jason]

On an old, old, OLD fan mix I made years back (2002 or so), I ended with TOMP/YAMS, with the "false Barnyard" fade. It sort of gave the album a sense of closure. The lineup was this:

Our Prayer/You're Welcome
Tones
Do You Like Worms?
Heroes and Villains Themes (the sections mix on the box set from the Bicycle Rider theme to right before the "false Barnyard" tag)
All Day
Look
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man
I'm In Great Shape
Cabinessence
The Elements: Vega-Tables
                       Holidays
                       Wind Chimes
                       Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
                       I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night
                       I Love To Say Da Da
Good Vibrations
Surf's Up
Heroes and Villains
Barnyard
The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (with "false Barnyard" tag)