When did Dennis lose his voice?

[Steve Mayo]

I remember a TV appearance the Boys made in '81, when Carl was out of the group. It began with the group introducing themselves.

"Mike Love, Santa Barbara, California!"
"Al Jardine from Big Sur, California!"
"Bruce Johnston, Pacific Palisades, California!"
"DENNIS! FROM VENICE!"

Imagine the last line but in the most horrible bark you can think of. That's how Dennis sounded in 1981.

Then the bit in American Band from '83 in Costa Mesa where Dennis can barely breathe while he's talking, so all he can let out is a huff of words. That's the worst.

I saw that one too!  They did the worst version ever of "Be True To Your School!"  I thought Dennis said "Dennis the menace."  Just goes to show you couldn't really understand what he was saying at that point...

I'd give my arm to be able to see a copy of that show. 

i have that show on vhs tape. i can make copies if anyone is interested. it sucks.....
just pm me.....

[Jon Stebbins]

One thing everybody needs to get on board with is that were NO absolutes with Dennis. He was clean, he was addicted, he was healthy, he was burnt, he loved and hated Karen...and loved and hated Murry, and he had more than a little bit of talent that wasn't being featured as early as it could have been. Enigmatic...oh yeah.

MBE is right, there was a "chic" Hollywood heroin crowd that Karen ran with that absolutely looked down on cocaine users. She was embarrassed to recount that whole period to me, but she did, and admitted her drug etiquette thing was totally stupid. I was pretty stupid when I was 25 too, I can relate. But yeah there was a brief period '74 -'75 when Dennis went "clean"...less booze, more exercise and sleep. Lots of time recording his songs. Then Brother became more of a party place as things unraveled.

It is no fantasy that Dennis loved Karen, in fact its a joke to think otherwise...listen to those songs. He also knew she was poison, and probably more screwed up inside than him...that's saying something. Dennis poisoned himself in many ways, Karen was one poison that actually had some positive side effects. But to say there is no way it could have been this...or something couldn't be true because of that...is a tunnel vision view from a highly biased perspective. Dennis loved to compartmentalize his relationships. He told different people different things about different people. But when you take it all in...The truth is his thing with Karen was good, bad and everything in between.

It cracks me up to read Dada's post...expressing the conventional view...that Brian must have been behind the scenes pulling the strings because Dennis music was so good, it couldn't have been because Dennis was that good. How could Dennis have gone from nothing to stuff so good? Well, did you ever consider that maybe one of the reasons Brian's stuff was so good is that he had a significant amount of help and influence from his brothers? I know, I know, there is no way that idea is going to gain traction in this world. But I don't know why that point of view is never even considered. I think Brian was truly inspired by Dennis and guided by Carl much of the time. But that's just me. Also, Dennis was working on his own music much earlier than '68. Its just that no one was listening. There is evidence that Dennis was developing his own music as early as '65, seriously writing songs in '66, and recording in '67. So it seems natural that his stuff released in '68 would be relatively mature. Brian certainly influenced Dennis, and helped him quite a bit, Carl helped him more, influenced him less. But Brian and Dennis had one important  thing in common... they had the same giant river of artistic and spiritual ideas flowing from another realm and straight into their heads. What came out of them was different, Brian found a way to shape and craft that flow into something beautiful that everyone could relate to. Dennis just flung it out there, sometimes it was really sad, and scary, and sometimes it didn't make sense, or it was only bits of thoughts and sparks of ideas, he wasn't that concerned with making it palatable to the average person, he was more concerned with it being real, truthful, reflective of the absolute core of inspiration. There is a lot of Brian in Dennis' music, but it has much more to do with Brian being his brother, and his musical hero, than with Brian physically helping Dennis make music.

I hope all of you are having a great holiday season...Thanks for a wonderful year!

[MBE]

Well said Jon. I am glad I remembered what we had discussed accurately.

From 1961 until perhaps 1977 or so, the Beach Boys were a real group. Brian was one of a kind, but I feel they all had unique talent to one degree or another. If pressed I would say that Dennis was the only one to match or come close to Brian, but Carl, Al, Dave, Mike, Ricky, and Blondie, every one of them had something special going for them. There are always going to be people who have the Brian and five a-holes view, but I think the last ten years has seen a big reversal of that for people who study the facts and not the hyperbole. A lot of that is thanks to Jon really as the full roles David and Dennis played in the group was unknown until he published his books.

[TdHabib]

One thing everybody needs to get on board with is that were NO absolutes with Dennis. He was clean, he was addicted, he was healthy, he was burnt, he loved and hated Karen...and loved and hated Murry, and he had more than a little bit of talent that wasn't being featured as early as it could have been. Enigmatic...oh yeah.

MBE is right, there was a "chic" Hollywood heroin crowd that Karen ran with that absolutely looked down on cocaine users. She was embarrassed to recount that whole period to me, but she did, and admitted her drug etiquette thing was totally stupid. I was pretty stupid when I was 25 too, I can relate. But yeah there was a brief period '74 -'75 when Dennis went "clean"...less booze, more exercise and sleep. Lots of time recording his songs. Then Brother became more of a party place as things unraveled.

It is no fantasy that Dennis loved Karen, in fact its a joke to think otherwise...listen to those songs. He also knew she was poison, and probably more screwed up inside than him...that's saying something. Dennis poisoned himself in many ways, Karen was one poison that actually had some positive side effects. But to say there is no way it could have been this...or something couldn't be true because of that...is a tunnel vision view from a highly biased perspective. Dennis loved to compartmentalize his relationships. He told different people different things about different people. But when you take it all in...The truth is his thing with Karen was good, bad and everything in between.

It cracks me up to read Dada's post...expressing the conventional view...that Brian must have been behind the scenes pulling the strings because Dennis music was so good, it couldn't have been because Dennis was that good. How could Dennis have gone from nothing to stuff so good? Well, did you ever consider that maybe one of the reasons Brian's stuff was so good is that he had a significant amount of help and influence from his brothers? I know, I know, there is no way that idea is going to gain traction in this world. But I don't know why that point of view is never even considered. I think Brian was truly inspired by Dennis and guided by Carl much of the time. But that's just me. Also, Dennis was working on his own music much earlier than '68. Its just that no one was listening. There is evidence that Dennis was developing his own music as early as '65, seriously writing songs in '66, and recording in '67. So it seems natural that his stuff released in '68 would be relatively mature. Brian certainly influenced Dennis, and helped him quite a bit, Carl helped him more, influenced him less. But Brian and Dennis had one important  thing in common... they had the same giant river of artistic and spiritual ideas flowing from another realm and straight into their heads. What came out of them was different, Brian found a way to shape and craft that flow into something beautiful that everyone could relate to. Dennis just flung it out there, sometimes it was really sad, and scary, and sometimes it didn't make sense, or it was only bits of thoughts and sparks of ideas, he wasn't that concerned with making it palatable to the average person, he was more concerned with it being real, truthful, reflective of the absolute core of inspiration. There is a lot of Brian in Dennis' music, but it has much more to do with Brian being his brother, and his musical hero, than with Brian physically helping Dennis make music.

I hope all of you are having a great holiday season...Thanks for a wonderful year!

Thanks for the terrific post Jon. I still wonder, have you or anybody you know heard "Labor Day"? I can't even imagine what it sounds like.

[Mr. Cohen]

It cracks me up to read Dada's post...expressing the conventional view...

Go ahead and laugh, but the proof is in the pudding, brother. First of all, Dennis and Carl were on the road constantly without Brian during the period ('65-'68) that Dennis began to blossom as a songwriter. Brian was writing largely without the possibility of Dennis being around and vice versa. Sure, they still spent time together, but it's not like Carl and Dennis were heavily involved in Brian's songwriting during this time. Carl was only an occasional presence during the sessions and Dennis was around even less, so how much could they really have learned? Enough that they could practically replicate Brian's sound on some of their first tries, completely without Brian?

Also, we have the fact that Brian was often dismissive of Dennis's musical ability. Brian putting down his brother in somewhat careless ways is documented both on tape from sessions and even in some interviews. Dennis was shy about his music and hesitant to share it with people at times,  from what we've heard. Were the two really that musically involved with each other during the songwriting process, also taking into consideration the above paragraph?

Then, we have Dennis's output on Friends. "Little Bird" borrows from "Child is Father of the Man" and has a fairly simplistic rhythmic basis,  while "Be Still" is simpler still. Then, all of a sudden, we have "Celebrate the News", with its epic psychedelic production. Now, maybe Dennis & Carl did it all on their own, it's possible, but I just don't think it's the most logical conclusion. I think that Dennis came up with the actual song on his own, but Brian helped put some of the finishing touches on it in the studio. There's no way for me to prove it, but that's my hunch. Now, by "Sunflower" I think Dennis & Carl did most of the work for their songs on their own. However, we have to remember that Brian was still a regular visitor to the studio at this point and he wrote a fair share of the music still. He had to have some input.  It just makes sense.

[Shady]

It cracks me up to read Dada's post...expressing the conventional view...

Go ahead and laugh, but the proof is in the pudding, brother. First of all, Dennis and Carl were on the road constantly without Brian during the period ('65-'68) that Dennis began to blossom as a songwriter. Brian was writing largely without the possibility of Dennis being around and vice versa. Sure, they still spent time together, but it's not like Carl and Dennis were heavily involved in Brian's songwriting during this time. Carl was only an occasional presence during the sessions and Dennis was around even less, so how much could they really have learned? Enough that they could practically replicate Brian's sound on some of their first tries, completely without Brian?

Also, we have the fact that Brian was often dismissive of Dennis's musical ability. Brian putting down his brother in somewhat careless ways is documented both on tape from sessions and even in some interviews. Dennis was shy about his music and hesitant to share it with people at times,  from what we've heard. Were the two really that musically involved with each other during the songwriting process, also taking into consideration the above paragraph?

Then, we have Dennis's output on Friends. "Little Bird" borrows from "Child is Father of the Man" and has a fairly simplistic rhythmic basis,  while "Be Still" is simpler still. Then, all of a sudden, we have "Celebrate the News", with its epic psychedelic production. Now, maybe Dennis & Carl did it all on their own, it's possible, but I just don't think it's the most logical conclusion. I think that Dennis came up with the actual song on his own, but Brian helped put some of the finishing touches on it in the studio. There's no way for me to prove it, but that's my hunch. Now, by "Sunflower" I think Dennis & Carl did most of the work for their songs on their own. However, we have to remember that Brian was still a regular visitor to the studio at this point and he wrote a fair share of the music still. He had to have some input.  It just makes sense.

What can you hear in the session tapes of Brian putting down Dennis.

Any quotes you can share?

[MBE]

I talked to Brian about Dennis and had nothing but huge praise for his talents. I agree Brian was involved with playing or singing on many of Dennis' songs from the time, but they were still Dennis' babies. The Beach Boys worked very well as a group during most of the sixties, just like Dennis' voice added a lot to tracks like Girls On The Beach, Brian's voice added a lot to Forever etc. Still Girls On The Beach is a very Brian song and Forever is a very Dennis song. Dennis couldn't help but be inspired by Brian, but I say that of the original five Beach Boys (not counting Dave, Ricky, Bruce, or Blondie) Dennis was the only one to truly find his own voice.

[TdHabib]

I recall an interview, I have it on my hard drive but don't quite have the time right now to check which one, with Brian where the interviewer asked him what his favorite Dennis song was; and after saying "Little Bird" and "Forever" Brian added "and the one where he sang 'we'll never make the headlines of the evening news'" referring to "You and I" from POB. Quite a deep cut, and shows that Brian not only has heard and appreciated that LP, but he appreciated Dennis' work as well.

I'll post in a few days which interview that was..

[Aegir]

You have to look at it this way - even if the rest of the band wasn't really writing songs at first, they were recording them and performing them and therefore hearing Brian's songs all the time. Celebrate the News is clearly inspired by Good Vibrations, which Dennis played organ on, meaning he was at the tracking sessions and the vocal sessions and probably heard Brian playing it on piano before they started recording and additionally Denny heard the song every night when he played it in concert, and it heard it at rehearsal when the band was going over the different parts. And that's just one song. Now imagine that with EVERY Beach Boys song, or even just the ones they played in concert. How many times do you think Dennis heard Wouldn't It Be Nice in the studio as they were recording it? How many times do you think the band rehearsed it?

Now imagine people like Carl, Al, and Bruce, who are playing melodic instruments, who played those chord changes every night, so much so that Brian-music became second nature to them. Or Carl and Dennis, who lived with Brian for 20+ years and heard every song he wrote and were taught piano by the same set of parents. Even Mike learned things, even if he didn't play an instrument, he sang the harmony parts, and he was immersed in the music of Brian Wilson just as long as Brian was - longer perhaps, because Brian didn't hear California Girls every night like Mike did.

I guess this is just a long winded way of saying that when you're in a band with someone, that person is one of your main influences whether you like it or not.

[Dancing Bear]

In my opinion, if you take the "Child is Father etc" off Little Bird, it's still a very good song. I'd like to know if it was Brian's or Dennis' idea, but one's dead and the other probably doesn't remember. About Brian helping Dennis.... It's possible, but Brian doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who'd offer to help anyone. He's always been in his little world. Now, if someone asks for it.... But can you picture Dennis doing it? He was probably anxious to get out of big brother's shadow.

[TdHabib]

False alarm-post replaced after better knowledge arrived...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Oh God, just thought of another variable to this equation: Dennis' tag to "It's OK," that's so much fun. Now he is a bit raspy, but it's actually kinda clear and concentrated, I'm almost certain it's at least doubled tracked. That's October...

Errrrr... no it's not, actually - Brian cut the basic track in late October 1974, but the vocals weren't added until the 15 Big Ones sessions in 1976 (Badman says June 26th, which would be a good trick as the album had been assembled & mastered on May 18th !!).

[c-man]

Oh God, just thought of another variable to this equation: Dennis' tag to "It's OK," that's so much fun. Now he is a bit raspy, but it's actually kinda clear and concentrated, I'm almost certain it's at least doubled tracked. That's October...

Errrrr... no it's not, actually - Brian cut the basic track in late October 1974, but the vocals weren't added until the 15 Big Ones sessions in 1976 (Badman says June 26th, which would be a good trick as the album had been assembled & mastered on May 18th !!).

I have to think Badman's date must refer to preparation of that track for the single release...they sped it up by 1% or 2%, so maybe that's what they did on that day, instead of actual "recording".

[Andrew G. Doe]

Oh God, just thought of another variable to this equation: Dennis' tag to "It's OK," that's so much fun. Now he is a bit raspy, but it's actually kinda clear and concentrated, I'm almost certain it's at least doubled tracked. That's October...

Errrrr... no it's not, actually - Brian cut the basic track in late October 1974, but the vocals weren't added until the 15 Big Ones sessions in 1976 (Badman says June 26th, which would be a good trick as the album had been assembled & mastered on May 18th !!).

I have to think Badman's date must refer to preparation of that track for the single release...they sped it up by 1% or 2%, so maybe that's what they did on that day, instead of actual "recording".

Dammit... why didn't I think of that ?

[adamghost]

Dennis' sudden blooming never seemed surprising to me.  In the music world, you will from time to time run into, for lack of a better word, these savant-like people who are just born creative.  I don't mean they're in any way stupid, I mean that they're naturally talented in the idea realm from the word go, without any real technical ability.  Dennis seems like one of those people and as he acquired technical ability (which he seems to have made a concerted effort to around '66), he could channel that creativity and get it on tape.  The seeming suddenness of his development probably stems from him getting those tools together.  Once you can play the piano, you can arrange just about anything, and it's also a stepping stone to being able to play nearly any other instrument.

To put it another way:  when I'm touring I'll get CDs given me by "baby bands" all the time.  Usually they all fall into some predictably categories, and generally pretty mediocre, but now and then you'll get someone who can't really play or sing but everything they do has a certain spark to it.  They're just tapped into something, even if they don't know how to translate it.

The idea that Dennis couldn't cut it in the studio without his brothers' help is nonsense, although I'm sure he got plenty of it and was happy to have it.  We have the story of Dennis coming in to a Rick Henn session around '69 (someone else would know the date) and coming up with some very inventive production and arrangement ideas on the song, for example.

Dennis had unusual talent, but for an "untrained" musician to blossom like that isn't that uncommon.  You just don't hear of them as much because usually people like that never get good enough technically to break through to the mainstream...but it happens all the time.   When folks like that do acquired the skills they need to get their music to the masses...look out.  Those are often our greatest artists.

[c-man]

Well said, Adam. 

[Chris Brown]

Well said, Adam. 

I'll second that.   

[Fall Breaks]

Imagine the last line but in the most horrible bark you can think of. That's how Dennis sounded in 1981.

Strangely, his voice doesn't seem that catastrophic during the Cocaine Sessions. He can be heard after Brian's enthusiastic rambling following "I Feel So Fine" saying something like, "yeah, nice piano". That was late 1981, wasn't it?

[Dove Nested Towers]

I heard an amusing anecdote once which I don't remember in exact detail but the gist was
that someone ran into Dennis unexpectedly at a bar in the late '70s and asked him what he
had been up to. "BEEN DRUMMIN'!" he answered in a manic, intoxicated fashion.

Poor guy. At least he lived large. R.I.P.

[mikeyj]

The idea that Dennis couldn't cut it in the studio without his brothers' help is nonsense, although I'm sure he got plenty of it and was happy to have it.  We have the story of Dennis coming in to a Rick Henn session around '69 (someone else would know the date) and coming up with some very inventive production and arrangement ideas on the song, for example.

Dennis had unusual talent, but for an "untrained" musician to blossom like that isn't that uncommon.  You just don't hear of them as much because usually people like that never get good enough technically to break through to the mainstream...but it happens all the time.   When folks like that do acquired the skills they need to get their music to the masses...look out.  Those are often our greatest artists.

Don't you get it Adam? Dennis was the no-talent drummer... as Brian said he's not even a drummer he's just "a clubber"... now Brian on the other hand, he had no influences or no help from anybody... he was just born like that... it was just a God-given gift...

But seriously, it amazes me how people can think that Dennis couldn't have done this or that... why not? As Jon has pointed out, he didn't just go from NOTHING to "Little Bird" etc.. he had been learning the piano from his mum at an early age and later with Bruce in 66 (right?), he had been writing and recording stuff beforehand and no doubt he had watched Brian at work in the studio producing... there's a Carol Kaye quote (I think it was her anyway) in I think the Real Beach Boy book saying that Dennis would sometimes just come in for 15 minutes or so and watch what Brian was doing... and I am of the opinion that he was a quick learner... not saying he went from nothing to Brian's level at producing overnight, but he no doubt was observing what Brian was doing. And of course he also saw Brian produce plenty of vocal sessions as he was there himself!! But I'm with you 100% Adam, some people just have this thing where they are born creative... I remember one of my friends once saying that every good musician/songwriter etc.. MUST have been trained and have studied music, he just couldn't accept that there are people who had very little training who turn out to be really gifted composers/musicians etc...

I'm not saying Dennis had NO help on Little Bird or any of his songs/productions... who knows, maybe Brian or someone else wrote/arranged/produced/sung/played EVERYTHING and we just don't know it ... but it's funny how some people can think that someone like Brian can do ANYTHING and yet they think that other people can't do anything... "oh no, he couldn't have written those lyrics" or something like that.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I guess, officially, we lost Dennis' voice, twenty-five years ago today....

[MBE]

How sad......