The end of Smile- Some big questions, any takers??

[MBE]

The main thing is to me is that Mike did do his job on Smile vocally and despite anything else he did do what he was told. It was done with an attitude at times, but he still did some excellent work. Listening to the session tapes, there was a great deal of group involvement and only rarely does the atmosphere seem negative. I think Mike made many bad decisions from 1974 on but it still doesn't take away from the talent he did have.

[the captain]

If you're comfortable judging the spiritual compasses of people that you don't know, 40 years after the fact, that's fine.  I'm not.  Am also not comfortable projecting my personal taste onto the spectrum of morality, which most people are all to ready to do.  The person whose music they like the best becomes the best person.  I think that's unfair.  And to me, it's much more interesting--fun even--to explore somebody who I don't necessarily think highly of and find reasons to like them.  And the more people I like, the less dislike I feel, and the less dislike I feel, the better I feel in general.

This is one of my favorite paragraphs on this board in a while. Since we're using words like "spiritual," can I say amen?

[Cam Mott]

To "H" : Hurrah for "H".

To MBE: ...and my recollection is the aural evidence of a negative atmosphere was from Brain toward Carl, in particular, or the group in general.  From Brian toward the group, back and to the left; not from group toward Brian. 

Not saying it wasn't necessarily justified or that is the whole story etc., just sayin'....

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

**Multiple sources have confirmed that whole thing was written by Brian.**

Those sources please.

My favorite source for that is Brian, who told Peter Reum that he wrote it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The one thing I would like to see, and haven't seen it written about in depth, is how was Mike Love acting as SMiLE progressed, and more specifically, in the spring of 1967?

I'm sure, and it has been documented in depth, that Mike was not happy early on, and protested to anyone who would listen. But, as has been pointed out, Mike did his job vocally and did it well.

I wonder if Mike continued to complain and protest, or if he eventually relented. While I know Mike never changed his opinion of SMiLE - he STILL doesn't like it - did he just let it go and not harrass Brian any further? I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary. I think that Mike "cooled his jets" somewhat because of his non-interference with the more "out there" Smiley Smile.

[the captain]

I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary.

On the first half, I think you're right and wrong. And in that, I mean that I don't think Mike specifically, deviously worked to prevent Smile's release--but I do think Brian's impression of Mike's reaction probably was instrumental in the album not being released.

On the second ... are you saying the Leaf-produced doc might not be 100% gospel? For shame! Next thing you know, you'll claim the staged bits weren't staged!

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary.

On the first half, I think you're right and wrong. And in that, I mean that I don't think Mike specifically, deviously worked to prevent Smile's release--but I do think Brian's impression of Mike's reaction probably was instrumental in the album not being released.

I think Brian weathered the "Mike Love criticism storm" quite well and when on to record the album, almost in it's entirety. With Mike. I mean, we have the proof, the music.

I think it went UNFINISHED because of several factors; I would put Mike's dissatisfaction lower on the list than most. And I don't think Mike's protesting led to Brian second guessing himself. I think other "substances" contributed to that.

[the captain]

But I wonder if Brian's reaction to Mike's second-guessing wasn't a part of what led to the "substances" of which you speak--in part. And don't misunderstand, I don't think it's something we can really explain (due to it being a 40-year-old mystery with key participants who either aren't speaking, are speaking for their own motivations or have no idea anymore) or that was even necessarily anywhere near as IMPORTANT as we make it now that it's some kind of great lost cause. All I'm saying is, when you're unstable, things like that can lead to more instability. The things don't even have to be real--Mike could have loved Smile (even though we know he didn't), but Brian could have just misunderstood. That's enough for someone struggling with the sorts of things Brian was struggling with at the time.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But I wonder if Brian's reaction to Mike's second-guessing wasn't a part of what led to the "substances" of which you speak--in part. And don't misunderstand, I don't think it's something we can really explain (due to it being a 40-year-old mystery with key participants who either aren't speaking, are speaking for their own motivations or have no idea anymore) or that was even necessarily anywhere near as IMPORTANT as we make it now that it's some kind of great lost cause. All I'm saying is, when you're unstable, things like that can lead to more instability. The things don't even have to be real--Mike could have loved Smile (even though we know he didn't), but Brian could have just misunderstood. That's enough for someone struggling with the sorts of things Brian was struggling with at the time.

Good points. Now I have to go work on my taxes...

[Mark H.]

I've never been accused of being a Mike Love fan....but consider the following:

1.  By this point Murry and to some extent Brian had cheated Mike out of royalties he was due.  

2.  Brian was using VDP which I'm sure was a painful insult to Mike.  Ironic given that Mike wrote the final lyrics to GV.

3.  Given #1 and #2 Mike keeps up his part in terms of leading the live band and singing on sessions.

Frankly Brian & Co. latter day accusations that Mike's lack of support killed Smile doesn't hold any water and is total BS.  Any ill feelings Mike held at this point were likely justified to some degree.

[Dancing Bear]

But I wonder if Brian's reaction to Mike's second-guessing wasn't a part of what led to the "substances" of which you speak--in part.

I know you're not stating it as a fact, but I think this is unfair. Debating Mike's role in Smile, ok. He DID protest about the crow line, after all. But whatever path Brian chose to take in his private life, whatever distance he chose to have from things more important  than pop albums, like his daughters, have nothing to do with the Beach Boys.

I mean, how often do we excuse Mike's alledged prickly behaviour in the seventies saying that he had a majority of co-workers with substance problems? I don't.

[the captain]

But I wonder if Brian's reaction to Mike's second-guessing wasn't a part of what led to the "substances" of which you speak--in part.

I know you're not stating it as a fact, but I think this is unfair. Debating Mike's role in Smile, ok. He DID protest about the crow line, after all. But whatever path Brian chose to take in his private life, whatever distance he chose to have from things more important  than pop albums, like his daughters, have nothing to do with the Beach Boys.

I mean, how often do we excuse Mike's alledged prickly behaviour in the seventies saying that he had a majority of co-workers with substance problems? I don't.

I'm not sure of what I'm being blamed for here, but I think you might have misunderstood me. I am not actually blaming Mike for anything. What I'm saying is that when someone has mental problems of the sort Brian had at the time, any number of things (real or perceived) can trigger a reaction. And as a pure hypothetical, I noted that if Brian were to perceive Mike's attitude toward smile as negative, he could react negatively, either with deeper depression or increased drug use or whatever. I don't mean any of that happened, or that Mike himself actually DID anything. I'm just saying that mental illness is a motherfucker.

[Chris Brown]

The way I see it, Mike wasn't as instrumental in the downfall of Smile as Brian and Leaf suggest, but I think the group's general lack of enthusiasm was one of many contributing factors.  Even in the documentary, Brian doesn't say that Mike disliking it was the only reason.  His drug use and general mental instability certainly weren't helping matters either.  

But at the same time, I don't think you can discount the impact of the group's less than enthusiastic feelings about the project.  I know they all did their jobs (extremely well, I might add), but Brian's mindset around that time was so extremely fragile that he would interpret some random comment from one of the guys as more harsh than it actually was.  He was also becoming frustrated at the resistance he was facing with not only the Beach Boys, but his "entourage" at the time.  The interview with Anderle in LLVS is very informative in telling how much it bothered him when people questioned his ideas.

Like I think I said before, even if the group was 100% on board with Smile from the start, Brian still may not have finished it due to everything he was facing at the time.  But I think that more support from the group might have been enough to allow him to finish...well, that and the year he claims he would have needed to do that.

[Bicyclerider]

"Frankly Brian & Co. latter day accusations that Mike's lack of support killed Smile doesn't hold any water and is total BS.  Any ill feelings Mike held at this point were likely justified to some degree."

This doesn't make sense - sure, Mike had some axes to grind with Murry (and Brian) over songwriting and he did write Good Vibrations only to be replaced for the album by Van Dyke.  But how does that somehow prove that Mike's lack of support/dislike of the Smile material DIDN'T kill Smile?  Whether his dislike was justified or not, whether it killed Smile is another question altogether that only Van Dyke and Brian can answer - Van Dyke has answered in the affirmative, and Brian has definitely put it forth as a reason, if not the sole reason, Smile was never finished.  We can all agree that ultimately Brian was the one who didn't finish it and decided not to finish it - until 2004 of course - can't we?  So then the question is why did Brian not finish it - and his reasons, whether you like them or not, or agree with them or not, are what in his mind derailed the project.  All that has to be filtered through our knowledge of his untreated mental illness and drug use at the time.

[Mahalo]

The most revealing quote IMO is the one Brian made when he first heard the 'Mints do the BB tribute (I think) in which Brian said something along the lines of

...["if I had this band back in 1967 I would've toured SMiLE"].

Which means he would've finished SMiLE and had the talent in the band to perform it live. However, maybe Brian was just being sarcastic when he made that comment. It would've been virtually impossible to play those songs live back then and make them sound good. IMO though Brian's comment holds water in the fact that the band and record company were not able to accept Brian's wacky endeavors and they were the catalyst for Brian pulling out. Not so much the substances.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

whether it killed Smile is another question altogether that only Van Dyke and Brian can answer

It's a lose lose, if "it" did kill Smile, then that would be a stark example of where Brian was, since never before to that point had he been deterred artistically by anything.  Whether you believe Brian was mentally ill and his paranoia led him to wrong perceptions, or if you believe that he'd simply become so pumped full of ego juice by his yes men that he couldn't deal with normal inter-group conflict, or if you believe something else, it's a sad reminder that just a year previous Brian was an artistic steamroller.

IMO though Brian's comment holds water in the fact that the band and record company were not able to accept Brian's wacky endeavors and they were the catalyst for Brian pulling out.

One person's wacky endeavors are another's harmful behavior.  I wouldn't have accepted a lot of Brian's behavior.  If he wants to do things his way, fine.  I think Mike could have got over feeling permanently ditched for other lyricists, but if Brian's going to take things into his own hands at the expense of every other member of the group, then he had better deliver.  As much fun as it is to think of the artist as the responsibility free bohemian who can create as the muse dictates, Brian signed a contract with Capitol to deliver product, which he was not doing.  When he started canceling sessions before they even started, that must have been frustrating to the band.  They were letting Brian do his own thing, letting themselves be completely marginalized artistically, because in their hearts they knew Brian was really, really good.  But while they're out spreading Brian's gospel, he's back recording chants, canceling sessions, and sleeping in his own bed.

If Brian had stayed the same from Pet Sounds through the completion of a hypothetical Smile, I think Smile would be looked back on in the same way Pet Sounds is in terms of the band's reaction.

They all would say the same thing they did about Pet Sounds.  They got back from tour, were surprised...but eventually warmed up to most of it.

But since Brian stopped Smile for whatever reason, the warming up couldn't happen naturally.

[MBE]

Domenic actually raises a good point in the role the Capitol lawsuit played in ending the album. I think it was inferred that the Beach Boys could not release or perform the Smile material for several months. Months that included Monterey. More or less the album was stalled at a very fragile point and the business going on with Capitol may have soured Brian further. Specifically I remember the original Heroes single was cancelled as a result.

One last thing about Mike. I don't think on the whole he minded Smile musically, and he has praised Heroes. Brian developed irrational fears about Mike but notice this didn't seem to happen until Landy came along. Brian wrote fairly regularly with Mike through 1980.

aeijtzsche raises a good point about Brian's Smile era entourage. It was they who fed Leaf the Mike killed Smile stories that he was all to ready to rush into print. I think Anderle even admitted he was trying to break the group up. If I was Mike I would have resented the hell out of them too.

[Dancing Bear]

The most revealing quote IMO is the one Brian made when he first heard the 'Mints do the BB tribute (I think) in which Brian said something along the lines of

...["if I had this band back in 1967 I would've toured SMiLE"].

Which means he would've finished SMiLE and had the talent in the band to perform it live.

I wonder where he found the strenght to finish Pet Sounds, when he knew that the Beach Boys wouldn't insert more than 3 or 4 of its tracks in their setlist. 

[Mahalo]

One person's wacky endeavors are another's harmful behavior.  I wouldn't have accepted a lot of Brian's behavior.  If he wants to do things his way, fine.  I think Mike could have got over feeling permanently ditched for other lyricists, but if Brian's going to take things into his own hands at the expense of every other member of the group, then he had better deliver.  As much fun as it is to think of the artist as the responsibility free bohemian who can create as the muse dictates, Brian signed a contract with Capitol to deliver product, which he was not doing.  When he started canceling sessions before they even started, that must have been frustrating to the band.  They were letting Brian do his own thing, letting themselves be completely marginalized artistically, because in their hearts they knew Brian was really, really good.  But while they're out spreading Brian's gospel, he's back recording chants, canceling sessions, and sleeping in his own bed.

All that is true, no argument there. However I think that the reason Brian let go of SMiLE is that as an artist he was growing exponentially. Even if his Mojo was all foda-ed up he was working hard on perfecting a work of art, but the confines of the record contract and his band wouldn't allow him the time or support to do so, IMO. Also, by killing SMiLE did Brian save himself?

His weird behavior was most likely because of drugs, but he wrote some really great songs on drugs- so who knows. He said the only song he wrote stoned on marijuana was Caroline, No but I find that hard to believe.

Mike gets a bad rap albeit some of it may be deserved...I look at Brian during this time as a sports manager- when the team does great you give the manager the credit, but when the team does poor the blame is also applied to the manager....( Fire Isiah Thomas!)

[Mahalo]

I wonder where he found the strenght to finish Pet Sounds, when he knew that the Beach Boys wouldn't insert more than 3 or 4 of its tracks in their setlist. 

True, but had the SMiLE project been finished and toured IMO they would've been more of a contemporary act than an oldies act. However that's what is weird about the quote- was Brian being serious?

If released, I think SMiLE would've been as succesful as Pet Sounds, maybe not much more...but it would've been IMPOSSIBLE to ignore....

[Dancing Bear]

I wonder where he found the strenght to finish Pet Sounds, when he knew that the Beach Boys wouldn't insert more than 3 or 4 of its tracks in their setlist. 

True, but had the SMiLE project been finished and toured IMO they would've been more of a contemporary act than an oldies act. However that's what is weird about the quote- was Brian being serious?

I think Brian forgot about this quote 30 seconds after he said it.

If it had been finished the band would perform Heroes & Villains, Good Vibrations, Wonderful and maybe one more track, and that would be it. Like they did with every new album. Brian expecting the band to pull a Tommy and perform a whole concept album - in three movements? Come on. The matter of the band ceasing to be a contemporary act had much more to do with the fact that their '67 and '68 albums just didn't find an audience. I love'em, btw.

I just don't see how Brian would cancel an album because the band would have to rearrange the songs live to four instruments and five voices. Or the band interfering with Brian's work because they wanted material that could be done, on stage, faithfully to the record. Brian would take care of creating hit singles, aftewards they'd figure out how to play the mo'fos live.

[KokoMoses]

I've never been accused of being a Mike Love fan....but consider the following:

1.  By this point Murry and to some extent Brian had cheated Mike out of royalties he was due.  

2.  Brian was using VDP which I'm sure was a painful insult to Mike.  Ironic given that Mike wrote the final lyrics to GV.

3.  Given #1 and #2 Mike keeps up his part in terms of leading the live band and singing on sessions.

Frankly Brian & Co. latter day accusations that Mike's lack of support killed Smile doesn't hold any water and is total BS.  Any ill feelings Mike held at this point were likely justified to some degree.

I agree completely. Brings back my old point about too many interloping factors messing up The Beach Boys. If this had been a different band (The Kinks, or The Who)
there would have been an argument or a fist fight then it would have been resolved over pints down at the pub.

[KokoMoses]

But I wonder if Brian's reaction to Mike's second-guessing wasn't a part of what led to the "substances" of which you speak--in part.

I know you're not stating it as a fact, but I think this is unfair. Debating Mike's role in Smile, ok. He DID protest about the crow line, after all. But whatever path Brian chose to take in his private life, whatever distance he chose to have from things more important  than pop albums, like his daughters, have nothing to do with the Beach Boys.

I mean, how often do we excuse Mike's alledged prickly behaviour in the seventies saying that he had a majority of co-workers with substance problems? I don't.

Bands fight over lyrics, arrangements, money, credits, all the time. It's just part of the process. It's very unfair that Mike should get flap for 40 years over debating a line he had every right as a founding member of the band to debate.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

However I think that the reason Brian let go of SMiLE is that as an artist he was growing exponentially. Even if his Mojo was all foda-ed up he was working hard on perfecting  a work of art, but the confines of the record contract and his band wouldn't allow him the time or support to do so, IMO.

If Brian wanted time to "perfect his art" he shouldn't have stayed with the group.  Being a recording artist was his job.

I mean, I have the rest of my life to perfect the album I'm working on, with zero external pressures.  Brian could have pulled an Eden Abez and wandered around writing songs and sleeping under the W in the Hollywood Sign.

But no matter how artistic we perceive Brian to be, genius doesn't absolve responsibility.  Genius should be lightly coddled by society, sure, but Brian chose to be a recording artist and chose to be paid for his art, and he chose to partner with 4 other people.

[Mahalo]

Hey, I agree with you 100%. I'm not making excuses for the man, just opining on what were his reasons for letting go of SMiLE.

Anyways, part of me is glad SMiLE 67 wasn't released...